Would You Like Some Cheese With Your Whine?

[Guest avadogner]

Hi GT Friends,

My giant Beta boy continues to adjust to his new far less hectic life. We corrected the furniture and book eating. We joined a play group since his big sis is really bad shape. She bullies him a bit (see previous thread) and we are working with her on it. When we adopted Augie we were warned he was "verbal". Verbal is actual talking and whining more than a pack of teenage girls at an all nite slumber party. He gets a walk almost every day, mutliple stuffed Kongs, bully sticks, a diet of fresh cooked venison and premium kibble, a huge fenced yard with toys and weekly trips to dog park or play date with other dogs.

 

This morning for the 3rd day in a row I woke at 6 am to Augie and Ava rooing and howling for over 10 minutes. Augie talks all the time whether he's bored, happy, laying next to me. Just about the only time he's quiet is when alseep and watching TV (he loves Judge Judy type shows). Niether dogs are crated and have beds in same room together and in 3 rooms of the house. Crating is not an option for him because he goes totally nuts in it (squalling and repeated vomiting). Our vet said to not crate him for his protection. He flipped the crate on it's side the first night. He can go out the dog door anytime he wants. I think he likes to just hear himself talk.

 

I love him and am trying to adapt. I sleep with a fan on and ear plugs in (DH snores too). He started standing in my face and pushing his nose in my face to chat. What does he think this is "the View". I have put a radio on talk radio in their room to his sisters unhappiness. Augie prefs the TV on but it's too much for our sick Ava. She prefs quiet and he prefs being her shadow. He is struggling with SA and it's another work in progress.

 

Has anyone encountered this and any tips of what to do next to help him chill and for me to get a few ZZZZZZZZZZZZs? I have also contacted a local dog sitter/walker service to walk him on days when I am too ill to do it. We wish we could get him a younger buddy to keep him more entertained but between my Dr bills and Ava's vet bills and meds, we aren't in the financial position to take on a third hound. Ava hopefully has another year left if we can keep her comfortable.

 

thanks again for the help!

ava and augie's mum

Edited February 24, 2011 by avadogner

[kudzu]

Well, personally I'd want to choke him if he were in my house. That would send me over the edge. Wouldn't actually do it of course but sure would want to.

 

I love him and am trying to adapt. I sleep with a fan on and ear plugs in (DH snores too). He started standing in my face and pushing his nose in my face to chat.

Adapt? To that?! You are a much better person than me.

 

Have not dealt with whining or dogs that "chat" at this level nor have I handled well the ones with even minimal amounts of this when they were here, long, long ago. I can't give advice from personal experience. The closest I've come is my newbie who likes to say "Hello!", "Goodbye!", "Hurry Up!" & "Oh Boy!" all with his high pitched, as Goofydog called it, "girlie bark". It happens when his excitement amps up to a level that would make some dogs dance, spin or leap. Instead he lets out a falsetto, Boys Choir pitched "Bark!" And if he is really over the top he repeats it a few times. My response depends on what is going on. At meal times it means I turn away with his bowl or even disappear back into the kitchen. "Oh, you must be barking at me to stay away & not feed you? OK, I'll leave." Expression on his face then is sometimes like & other times more of a Kind of like he's thinking, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." This excitement barking was really bad in the beginning but he's a bright boy & caught on quickly that only quiet gets him what he wants. However, he still does it on occasions. Overall though the approach has worked well with one exception. When I come home he just can't take it & barks. I've a new plan of action to end that but um... well, the humans involved need to do their part & we haven't quite gotten our act together.

 

The above was necessary so he realized that no bark is rewarded... well, except when one is because the humans goofed. The other part of the process that was & is much more successful & had a huge impact was rewarding quiet. In the beginning I had to move fast to get some sort of reward to him before he barked. I know that sounds like his tactic worked except: 1) I don't know what he is thinking so have chosen not to assume it was a conscious tactic of his; 2) It gave me a chance to reward for quiet. As time went on I didn't have to hurry so much & eventually not at all. He would be quiet for longer & longer periods before the barks bubbled up & the Boys Choir just had to sing. Peace & quiet now prevails at least 99% of the time.

 

So now the questions for you are could you be doing anything to unintentionally reward his chatter? Whether you are or not, what can you think of that he could perceive as a reward for chatting? Here are some ideas that come to mind for me (all of which could be wrong but may get you started on your own list):

• 
   
  
• It gets him attention from you or someone else even if it is just a look.
  
• It draws your attention away from something else.
  
• You speak to him even if it would just be to scold him.
  
• It is some type of stress reliever for him.
  
• It burns off some energy, physical or mental.
  
• It repels the Ava bully. (Thought of that just because you said she prefers quiet.)
  
• It worked for him in the past so has become a habit or he thinks, "Why not try it again?" We all tend to do what has been rewarded even if it sometimes also gets punished. Think persistent counter surfing or getting on forbidden furniture when humans aren't around. (This is why rewards are often much more effective than punishments.)
  
• It is just self rewarding to him. The boy likes to hear himself talk or you may have already nailed this one in your OP. He likes he noise of chatter. It's the only reason I can think of for him liking Judge Judy.
  

 

Can you remove or reduce those rewards? More importantly what can you do to reward quiet? What does he like, besides his own voice? Find a way to reward him for quiet. Something else to consider is what a number of dog training instructors have pointed out to me in the last couple years. OH! That reminded me of my Deerhound puppy's attention seeking barking, whining, grumbling, etc. Wow, I have dealt with a talker before but forgot. She's an adult now so my subconscious must have buried the memories of it to protect my sanity. I've already made most of my points above so you can stop reading now. (Likely you already stopped 500 words ago.) Still, here's my story.

 

In response to my own whining about Deerie barking & whining, several trainers observed that dogs tend to do what we pay attention to, concentrate on, worry about, stress over or otherwise expend our energy on. Wording depended on speaker. All asked some version of the same question, "What do you want her to do?" I wanted her to not bark. They all pointed out the obvious fact that my attempts to stop it were not helping. My take from what they said was that she needed something to do & I should pay attention to that instead. Something to do? I gave her lots to do. I thought of all the play, training & myriad stuff we did. Geeze, how much more could I do without quitting my job? I did finally notice that any attempt to extinguish her noisiness only caused more noise. It was more than just that her noise was sometimes rewarded with attention. If I actively worked on ignoring it she did it more. Great, so they were right. The more energy I put forth to rid myself of her noise, the more noise I got. Yet I still had no solution.

 

So we were in a new class with a new instructor. "Is anyone having any problems?" As my then adolescent Deerhound jumped up & barked right into my ear I whined loudly & shrilly, "Yes, this! How do I make her stop!" She said, "You can't." My response was Then the now routine, "What do you want her to do?" "I want her to stop barking." She said, "She's stopped right now." I replied in exasperation, "But she will start again. I want her to stop, really stop." She asked again but with a different inflection on the words, "But what do you want her TO DO? Figure that out & reward it."

 

At some point in the next week or two it finally hit me & I felt like an idiot. Rather than stop barking, which of necessity requires that she start barking & was clearly not what I wanted, I wanted her to remain quiet. Yes, that's obvious & of course I already knew it but now it all clicked. I wasn't really communicating to her what I wanted. Despite my philosophy of rewarding what I wanted & ignoring the rest this was one thing I just couldn't ignore & I had failed to truly reward what I wanted. All my energy was focused on the noise, not the quiet. I started to do my best to shrug off the barking, though I confess it was soooo hard to do. More so though I started to try my best to notice, pay attention to, acknowledge, reward the quiet. It was slow going since both our habits were by then deeply entrenched. Yet even my initial fumbling & often inconsistent efforts started to produce obvious results. It got easier & soon she got quieter. Stressful times were most difficult for both of us but that improved as well. She is not perfectly quiet but she is so very much improved that I somehow managed to forget how bad things had been.

 

Now I'll be quiet.

Edited February 24, 2011 by kudzu

[Guest avadogner]

Well, personally I'd want to choke him if he were in my house. That would send me over the edge. Wouldn't actually do it of course but sure would want to.

 

I love him and am trying to adapt. I sleep with a fan on and ear plugs in (DH snores too). He started standing in my face and pushing his nose in my face to chat.

Adapt? To that?! You are a much better person than me.

 

Have not dealt with whining or dogs that "chat" at this level nor have I handled well the ones with even minimal amounts of this when they were here, long, long ago. I can't give advice from personal experience. The closest I've come is my newbie who likes to say "Hello!", "Goodbye!", "Hurry Up!" & "Oh Boy!" all with his high pitched, as Goofydog called it, "girlie bark". It happens when his excitement amps up to a level that would make some dogs dance, spin or leap. Instead he lets out a falsetto, Boys Choir pitched "Bark!" And if he is really over the top he repeats it a few times. My response depends on what is going on. At meal times it means I turn away with his bowl or even disappear back into the kitchen. "Oh, you must be barking at me to stay away & not feed you? OK, I'll leave." Expression on his face then is sometimes like & other times more of a Kind of like he's thinking, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." This excitement barking was really bad in the beginning but he's a bright boy & caught on quickly that only quiet gets him what he wants. However, he still does it on occasions. Overall though the approach has worked well with one exception. When I come home he just can't take it & barks. I've a new plan of action to end that but um... well, the humans involved need to do their part & we haven't quite gotten our act together.

 

The above was necessary so he realized that no bark is rewarded... well, except when one is because the humans goofed. The other part of the process that was & is much more successful & had a huge impact was rewarding quiet. In the beginning I had to move fast to get some sort of reward to him before he barked. I know that sounds like his tactic worked except: 1) I don't know what he is thinking so have chosen not to assume it was a conscious tactic of his; 2) It gave me a chance to reward for quiet. As time went on I didn't have to hurry so much & eventually not at all. He would be quiet for longer & longer periods before the barks bubbled up & the Boys Choir just had to sing. Peace & quiet now prevails at least 99% of the time.

 

So now the questions for you are could you be doing anything to unintentionally reward his chatter? Whether you are or not, what can you think of that he could perceive as a reward for chatting? Here are some ideas that come to mind for me (all of which could be wrong but may get you started on your own list):

• It gets him attention from you or someone else even if it is just a look.
• It draws your attention away from something else.
• You speak to him even if it would just be to scold him.
• It is some type of stress reliever for him.
• It burns off some energy, physical or mental.
• It repels the Ava bully. (Thought of that just because you said she prefers quiet.)
• It worked for him in the past so has become a habit or he thinks, "Why not try it again?" We all tend to do what has been rewarded even if it sometimes also gets punished. Think persistent counter surfing or getting on forbidden furniture when humans aren't around. (This is why rewards are often much more effective than punishments.)
• It is just self rewarding to him. The boy likes to hear himself talk or you may have already nailed this one in your OP. He likes he noise of chatter. It's the only reason I can think of for him liking Judge Judy.

 

Can you remove or reduce those rewards? More importantly what can you do to reward quiet? What does he like, besides his own voice? Find a way to reward him for quiet. Something else to consider is what a number of dog training instructors have pointed out to me in the last couple years. OH! That reminded me of my Deerhound puppy's attention seeking barking, whining, grumbling, etc. Wow, I have dealt with a talker before but forgot. She's an adult now so my subconscious must have buried the memories of it to protect my sanity. I've already made most of my points above so you can stop reading now. (Likely you already stopped 500 words ago.) Still, here's my story.

 

In response to my own whining about Deerie barking & whining, several trainers observed that dogs tend to do what we pay attention to, concentrate on, worry about, stress over or otherwise expend our energy on. Wording depended on speaker. All asked some version of the same question, "What do you want her to do?" I wanted her to not bark. They all pointed out the obvious fact that my attempts to stop it were not helping. My take from what they said was that she needed something to do & I should pay attention to that instead. Something to do? I gave her lots to do. I thought of all the play, training & myriad stuff we did. Geeze, how much more could I do without quitting my job? I did finally notice that any attempt to extinguish her noisiness only caused more noise. It was more than just that her noise was sometimes rewarded with attention. If I actively worked on ignoring it she did it more. Great, so they were right. The more energy I put forth to rid myself of her noise, the more noise I got. Yet I still had no solution.

 

So we were in a new class with a new instructor. "Is anyone having any problems?" As my then adolescent Deerhound jumped up & barked right into my ear I whined loudly & shrilly, "Yes, this! How do I make her stop!" She said, "You can't." My response was Then the now routine, "What do you want her to do?" "I want her to stop barking." She said, "She's stopped right now." I replied in exasperation, "But she will start again. I want her to stop, really stop." She asked again but with a different inflection on the words, "But what do you want her TO DO? Figure that out & reward it."

 

At some point in the next week or two it finally hit me & I felt like an idiot. Rather than stop barking, which of necessity requires that she start barking & was clearly not what I wanted, I wanted her to remain quiet. Yes, that's obvious & of course I already knew it but now it all clicked. I wasn't really communicating to her what I wanted. Despite my philosophy of rewarding what I wanted & ignoring the rest this was one thing I just couldn't ignore & I had failed to truly reward what I wanted. All my energy was focused on the noise, not the quiet. I started to do my best to shrug off the barking, though I confess it was soooo hard to do. More so though I started to try my best to notice, pay attention to, acknowledge, reward the quiet. It was slow going since both our habits were by then deeply entrenched. Yet even my initial fumbling & often inconsistent efforts started to produce obvious results. It got easier & soon she got quieter. Stressful times were most difficult for both of us but that improved as well. She is not perfectly quiet but she is so very much improved that I somehow managed to forget how bad things had been.

 

Now I'll be quiet.

 

 

Thank you so much for your input. It wasn't too much (I'm chatty myself) and it got me thinking. We do shush him and try to ignore him in his peak whining which happens to sound like a sissy girl. When he is laying quietly I tend to go love on him. I really try to ignore him at peak whining but sometimes it's too annoying. Usually a "hey augie, what's up bubba" is all he needs to be reassured I'm still here. He has SA and even when I go into the bathroom (the secret escape hatch to him) he sits outside the door and cries the whole time. he can hear me in there running water, brushing teeth but he is so afraid I've left him. I know he really needs a buddy play with and bond with more. It just isn't possible at this point. Maybe after I get my kidney transplant we can do a third dog.

 

The funny thing is that his normal cry is super high pitched but when he's sleeping he gives these deep voice growls (non aggressive just dreaming noise) and they are so deep toned. He sounds like Shaft. The DH and I always laugh and "damn right" each time he does it. This must be his bad a$$ alter self since he's a BETA male in his waking life. I'll start trying to think of some ways to reward quiet. I find ignoring the noise makes him more distressed with it. Maybe I could make recordings of me talking to him that replays once an hour during sleeping time. I really need my rest because the kidney transplant situation. When I'm awake and in the same room with him, he's cool. It's after the DH goes to work, that' when it gets going. I know the root of this is his SA and missing the greyhound frat house.

 

Any more ideas will be appreciated!

-ava and augie's mum

[DesiRayMom]

A & A's Mum:

 

I have absolutely no advice, as this is not a problem I've had to deal with.

Just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you. My work is loud & chaotic, so when I get home, it's dead quiet,

except for maybe a few "sweet nothings." I'm afraid I'd be crazy by now.

 

Kathy

[kudzu]

I wonder if the A-team would enjoy & be calmed by these CDs: http://www.throughadogsear.com Have heard very good things about them. Someone even found the book with sample CD at her library.

[TheFullHouse]

I have the champion talker. Saint has been this way since the day we brought him home. He whines or barks or just plain talks your head off when ever he wants something, when I'm on the phone, when I'm trying to sleep. Out of desperation, I tried the squirt bottle. I had tried ignoring him, but there comes a point where you think you'll lose your mind if he opens his mouth one more time! So I got the squirt bottle and filled it with water and whenever he was carrying on (for no reason) I would squirt him and tell him "quiet". It took about 2 weeks to get him trained. Now when he starts in, I just tell him "quiet" and he stops. I don't use this in cases where he's hungry, or needs to go outside because I still want him to be able to tell me he needs to go outside. I tried the reward system so that when he would stop after I tried ignoring him, I would reward him but heck he figured out that if he carried on and then stopped, I would reward him so he was getting cookies right and left.

[Guest avadogner]

Jilly,

OMG I can't believe I haven't believed thought of this. My in laws have a spastic petite basset griffon verdeen mix that responded well to the water bottle for jumping on people, tables and raiding the trash can. He is real pistol of a dog. I think I will give the water bottle a try before resorting to meds. We had our first tornado warning last night and it has been 20 hours of hell. The tornado warnings ended at 4 am and he is still whining despite having a 2 mile walk with 4 water bottles in his coat to tire him out. I'm at my whits end which is a short trip at this point.

Thanks for the idea!

ava and augie's exhausted mum

 

 

 

I have the champion talker. Saint has been this way since the day we brought him home. He whines or barks or just plain talks your head off when ever he wants something, when I'm on the phone, when I'm trying to sleep. Out of desperation, I tried the squirt bottle. I had tried ignoring him, but there comes a point where you think you'll lose your mind if he opens his mouth one more time! So I got the squirt bottle and filled it with water and whenever he was carrying on (for no reason) I would squirt him and tell him "quiet". It took about 2 weeks to get him trained. Now when he starts in, I just tell him "quiet" and he stops. I don't use this in cases where he's hungry, or needs to go outside because I still want him to be able to tell me he needs to go outside. I tried the reward system so that when he would stop after I tried ignoring him, I would reward him but heck he figured out that if he carried on and then stopped, I would reward him so he was getting cookies right and left.

[cleptogrey]

I have the champion talker. Saint has been this way since the day we brought him home. He whines or barks or just plain talks your head off when ever he wants something, when I'm on the phone, when I'm trying to sleep. Out of desperation, I tried the squirt bottle. I had tried ignoring him, but there comes a point where you think you'll lose your mind if he opens his mouth one more time! So I got the squirt bottle and filled it with water and whenever he was carrying on (for no reason) I would squirt him and tell him "quiet". It took about 2 weeks to get him trained. Now when he starts in, I just tell him "quiet" and he stops. I don't use this in cases where he's hungry, or needs to go outside because I still want him to be able to tell me he needs to go outside. I tried the reward system so that when he would stop after I tried ignoring him, I would reward him but heck he figured out that if he carried on and then stopped, I would reward him so he was getting cookies right and left.

 

 

after having lived w/ a terrier who LOVED the squirt bottle and barked like it was going out of style dare i mention a shaker can? it is an used metal can(baked bean size is perfect), a couple of pennies inside of it and the lid taped on. one sharp shake and it stops all commotion, no words from you. felix (my present male grey) came to me at 7 weeks and used to scream when i was on the phone, the water gun/plant spray(i was armed w/ both) did bupkahs. so, i shake w/ the can and dead slience. i rarely used it with both since they would see the can and shut up. short and simple, let the noise do the work for you. for years it sat by my side at night ...it just needed to be within sight not sound!

 

as to the last statement re; reward system and the pup yacking away and shutting up to get the reward...i too have been there!

[kudzu]

Are aversive things like a squirt bottle or shaker can designed to work by scaring, upsetting or annoying a dog enough to make them quit what you want to use with a dog who seems to be suffering from worry or anxiety?

[TheFullHouse]

In Saint's case, he's not worried or anxious, he just likes the sound of his own voice. If he were suffering from separation anxiety or something else, I wouldn't use it. You can ask anyone here on GT who has visited the house, he just likes to make noise.

[cleptogrey]

felix is a talker as well and VERY OUTGOING. the yodell helloooooo and occasional festive talking is o.k. but the annoying let me in, let me out, play w/ me, can't get the toy....and so on had to be controlled. from the initial post the other talking hound does not sound like a case of s.a. i would never mention a shaker can for a timid or anxious dog.

[kudzu]

from the initial post the other talking hound does not sound like a case of s.a. i would never mention a shaker can for a timid or anxious dog.

 

OP characterizes dog as having SA. Snips from OP's follow up post:

He has SA and even when I go into the bathroom (the secret escape hatch to him) he sits outside the door and cries the whole time. he can hear me in there running water, brushing teeth but he is so afraid I've left him. ...

 

When I'm awake and in the same room with him, he's cool. It's after the DH goes to work, that' when it gets going. I know the root of this is his SA and missing the greyhound frat house.

 

It is quite often hard to gage what is really going on with our dogs based only on written correspondence. It would seem appropriate in this case to take OP at her word for now. If OP is correct & the dog does have some anxiety, fear or confidence issues then things like squirt bottles & shaker cans may make the overall problems worse even if it makes the dog quiet for a while. So I felt it reasonable to ask why use those methods for a possibly anxious dog. If there are no anxiety or similar probs using those items could still cause a problem to pop up somewhere else later.

 

Besides, why start with such methods that many dogs find highly aversive before making a concerted effort to find a way to reward this dog for good behavior & cut off all possible rewards for inappropriate behavior? Not looking for an answer or explanation from anyone. Most certainly not criticizing anyone for suggesting these. Just offering what I think are important questions & ideas to consider before using aversives.

[Guest iconsmum]

I totally agree with Kudzu...aversives are lazy, aversives make the dog wary of us, they're not teaching anything - if we put the can away the behaviour will come back, we need the threat of the can in view ...etc etc The one thing I took right away from the OP was the anxiety or separation issue, call it whatever. - The trouble with aversives is, they quickly become the first go-to solution, so now we're shaking and squirting for everything, Why not think in terms of what we want the dog "to dö", and train that...lots of trainers, me included, will coach over a problem using positive reinforcement, for free or a small consultation price - almost all of us know how to do it, we love to help, and we're out there...

[kudzu]

With all due respect to iconsmum, I do not think Avadogner is trying to be lazy. And I think often others who use aversives are not trying to be lazy. Certainly some are but many simply do not know how well a good reward system can work nor the additional steps that may need to be taken in the interim before the dog has learned the appropriate behavior & it has become the new habit. It is hard sometimes to get started & maintain the reward system until you have done it a few times. And until then it is difficult to believe how well it can work. Education & experience can help convince people how powerful rewards can be & how to go about getting the results they want.

 

In the case of Avadogner I think there are some extenuating circumstances that make expediency one of the priorities. A need for expediency can help tilt someone to using aversives, especially when other management changes have failed. It has been a long road for me before starting to internalize what I now know to most often be true about training. Slow is fast. Am still having to remind myself of that sometimes. It is not an easy thing for me.

[Guest LindsaySF]

This is clearly an insecure and anxious dog. I would not use aversives. Positive reinforcement/training only. This sounds like a SA issue to me, not a "talking" issue.

 

This is a stupid question, but this is how I read it... If the dogs are howling all night in "their room", why don't you have them sleep in your bedroom? I have several dogs (especially Rogan and foster Parker) that would scream ALL night if not allowed to be in the room with me. They are big babies.

 

How old is he? How much exercise does he get? Rogan is a very whiny dog, but the longer he lived here (and got used to the routine), and the more exercise he got, the less whining he did. Rogan will also wander and cry when he wants attention, and we have to be careful not to give in and give it to him. (It's hard when he's acting so pathetic!)

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

Edited February 28, 2011 by LindsaySF

[Guest avadogner]

Rest assured everyone, I would not spray Augie if it scares him. I would never do anything to stress him further. I love him dearly and will only do things that help him not hurt him. I do appreciate the concern for his well being. I will continue working with him every day but we just trying to avoid using medications with him. I want him to happy and less vocal. I don't mind a little talking but this is a level beyond normal. It is unhealthy for my ailing Ava, for me and for Augie. We dropped $40 yesterday for a dog stress relief DAP air system.

Thanks,

ava and augie's mum

 

 

[Guest avadogner]

This is clearly an insecure and anxious dog. I would not use aversives. Positive reinforcement/training only. This sounds like a SA issue to me, not a "talking" issue.

 

This is a stupid question, but this is how I read it... If the dogs are howling all night in "their room", why don't you have them sleep in your bedroom? I have several dogs (especially Rogan and foster Parker) that would scream ALL night if not allowed to be in the room with me. They are big babies.

 

How old is he? How much exercise does he get? Rogan is a very whiny dog, but the longer he lived here (and got used to the routine), and the more exercise he got, the less whining he did. Rogan will also wander and cry when he wants attention, and we have to be careful not to give in and give it to him. (It's hard when he's acting so pathetic!)

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

 

 

Augie just turned 4 in December. He has been in our home since Sept. He has an half acre back yard with dog door access and gets at least one mile and half long walk (with water bottles in pack to tire him out), I am lining up a dogwalker for the second walk. I would do more but for those who do not already know I am very ill. I have waiting on a kidney transplant for 2 yrs and have other health issues. Doing the mile and half walk took me months to build up to and wipes out all my engery for the day. I wish I could give him more activity but I am not physically possible. I sit in a chair in the backyard and toss treats with him to play him out more. We do daily bully sticks, stuffed Kongs inside and out, and I daily work on catching him in quiet moments (which are rare) to reward his good behaviour. We also make a weekly trip to our local dog park.

 

No doors are closed in our home. We baby gated areas he isnt allowed in because closed door upset him. We encourage hime to sleep with us and some nights he does and some nights he want to be with Ava. He has free choice in that matter. I do want to avoid anything that is a quick fix and truely correct his behaviour. I am having another surgery in a few weeks thus the push to "fix his crying". This isn't my transplant but I will have full adbominal inscion, and my abilty to move around easily will be limited. I am trying to be proactive and do everything I can in advance to reduce this distressing (for all of us) behaviour. I am going to be very weak and sick when I get out of the hopsital and I am trying to plan ahead. I've lined up dog walkers which I can barely afford already and volunteer walkers so he gets more walks. He will be boarding at the rescue group so when he comes home, he's going to be back to page one on missing the greyhound frat house.

 

 

When he first came home, he was eating books and several pieces of furniture which we corrected without any negative techniques. He has made improvements there. He talks even when he is happy. When he is lonely or bored, it goes to earpiercing pitch and becomes nonstop. It is part anxiety and part enjoying his own voice. I don't expect him to be silent, just reduce the amount so our neighbors in the house next door stop complaining and I can sleep. I enjoy his company and he is a sweet boy. Our time with Ava is slipping away daily. She is getting worse every day. I fear in the next few months, we may not be able to control her pain any longer. When the time comes, we will let her go. And as painful as it will be, we will choose a playmate for Augie. I feel deep in my hearth that all he needs is a dog that want to play with him. He is very social and playful and Ava is just too sick now to accomidate him. The very last thing I would do is anything to make him worse like scaring him.

 

I appreciate all the advice and hope everyone will still continue to send ideas as they come to them.

Thanks again,

ava and augie's mum

[Guest sheila]

well shoot Alicia......did you at least TRY the cheese?

Maybe something as simple as a busy toy could help with what sounds to me like boredom. When my dogs start getting on my nerves (which can happen when you live in the armpit of winter) I give them that they can chew on or mess with that occupies them until the point where they get tired and go to sleep.

[Guest avadogner]

Hi Sheila,

Cheese always makes it better. His fav treats are cubed venison, ched cheeese pieces bully sticks,, dried salmon pieces and drid duck pieces. The hard part is catching him those few blessed quiet moments. Today I did a few SA training sessions of quietly leaving the home for short time and returning. We are also working on Augie using the Pergo kitchen floor. We have a old house with pine floors. He tends to stick to rugs and rooms with rugs in them. The Pergo in the kitchen is extra slippy so he avoids it like a plaque. We are using patience and treat rewarding if he can make it to a point in the kitchen where we put a small rug. Every couple days the rugs gets moved so he has further to go. We are working on getting OK with the Pergo because we have 3 walls of glass sunroom which give hime a nice place to obs the front yard.

 

Ava used to enjoy watching the action at the bird feeders from the sunroom before she her hips worsened. I think he would like it too. He's got to fill his time before his 3 hour time block of America's Funniest Videos, then the 3 loud, annoying judge shows. He cries if the TV (I usuallly keep a radio on NPR or country) is off and drags his bed to in front ot the TV and then cries till I come turn it on. He loves noise and chaos. Whe we take our daily walk, he pulls toward the area where the construction workers are busy resurfacing the road. My Ava always prefered the quiet route.

 

Once again Thank You all for the tips and point of views,

Ava and Augie's mum

p.s. I wrote he is 4 but he's 5. He had a b'day at Christmas. Sorry for the error.

 

 

 

well shoot Alicia......did you at least TRY the cheese?

Maybe something as simple as a busy toy could help with what sounds to me like boredom. When my dogs start getting on my nerves (which can happen when you live in the armpit of winter) I give them that they can chew on or mess with that occupies them until the point where they get tired and go to sleep.

[Guest iconsmum]

With all due respect to iconsmum, I do not think Avadogner is trying to be lazy. And I think often others who use aversives are not trying to be lazy. Certainly some are but many simply do not know how well a good reward system can work nor the additional steps that may need to be taken in the interim before the dog has learned the appropriate behavior & it has become the new habit. It is hard sometimes to get started & maintain the reward system until you have done it a few times. And until then it is difficult to believe how well it can work. Education & experience can help convince people how powerful rewards can be & how to go about getting the results they want.

 

In the case of Avadogner I think there are some extenuating circumstances that make expediency one of the priorities. A need for expediency can help tilt someone to using aversives, especially when other management changes have failed. It has been a long road for me before starting to internalize what I now know to most often be true about training. Slow is fast. Am still having to remind myself of that sometimes. It is not an easy thing for me.

 

 

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You just said it way better than I did - please excuse the implication that avadogner is lazy - it wasn't intended as a personal slight as much as a general observation.

[Guest avadogner]

Hi everyone,

I took the advice y'all gave to heart and did not go the water bottle route. I keep a pack of dried duck or salmon pieces in my robe pocket and am going the positive reinforcement route. It's harder for me but I want to do what is best for him. We met with the dogwalker and he liker her very much. The weather has warmed here and we were able to take a long walk everyday and he was much better on the whining front. He is still extremely talkative. He always will be verbal but we will keep working on teaching him to curb it some. I appreciate everyone giving us tips.

 

Ava is slipping away and I think Augie knows this and it may be contributing to his anxiety. She is snarky with him but he still prefers to sleep in the same room as her and be with her. He comes back and forth between his bed by my side of the bed and his bed in the living room. We bought a Dog Pheramone Therapy plug in which seems to have helped relax Ava and Augie so it is worth it. Ava's pain meds are no longer managing her pain so we are off to the vet tomorrow to see what options we have left. I think Augie's increased verbalness over the past couple months may be connected to her pain, increased aggitation and my anxiety over Ava's health. I should have recognized this earlier. I also have a feeling my upcoming surgery will make things worse for a while. I also know when we lose Ava, he will be lost without his Alpha. I wish I could wait to adopt another hound after Ava is gone but he will need a new Alpha ASAP. He is a supersubmissive, beta male which is why we wanted him so Ava could adapt to him. He will need another dominant dog to be his leading buddy. It will hard but I will do what's best for my goofy boy. I'll keep everyone posted on our progress and posssible regress.

-ava and augie's mum