Ppa And Seizures?

[galgomum]

Hoping for some input here.

Last Wednesday we took our 10 year old boy to the vet, he was dribbling urine when exited.

Since he is ok otherwise, no abdominal pain, no UTI, the vet wanted to try him on Proin (PPA).

It is a medication I have good and bad experience with, wich I told the vet, had to take Isa (galgo) off it because her heart started to work overtime, which was scary, Paquita (bordercolliemix)takes 12 mg a day for her spay incontinence and does great.

The vet wanted to work with me and decided on a low dosage. Johnny is a big boy, between 70 to 75 pound and gets 25 mg twice a day.

 

Last night, at 1 am we woke up and found him in a seizure, he was doing the running motion, foamed at the mouth, and urinated.

Lasted for about 1.5 minute and was disorientated, scared of us, walked into furniture and had a hard time to stay on his backlegs.

During the rest of the night I heard him smacking his lips often.

 

Needless to say he is extremely tired this morning and seems a bit off. His left eye is smaller than his right one but seems to slowly get normal again.

 

I took him off the Proin for the time being, too much coincidence I think, but am I wrong?

He is going to the vet first thing tomorrow.

[Guest cristaron]

We have a 9 year old male that has been having seizures since he was two.

He started leaking and dribbling so our vet put him on Proin. Two nights

later he had a seizure. Next night he had another one. Kind of out of pattern for

him because he typically can go between 6 weeks to 3 months without seizing and has

never had them two or more nights in a row.

I took him off it immediately and started him on Vetri-Science Bladder Strength that

one of the vets had mentioned on this list a couple years ago.

It takes a while to build up in their system but it has worked wonderfully for him

and hasn't affected his seizure pattern at all. No leaking or dribbling anymore.

[Fiona3]

Our boy Hobbes was placed on Proin for urinary incontinence. He was a senior at the time. Within 5 days of starting on the Proin he had a stroke. The veterinary neurologist who treated him said he felt it was the result of taking the Proin. Although he slowly recovered from the stroke, he had some mild side affects & needed to take a mild dose of Prednisone daily.

 

After our experience, I will look for other alternatives to Proin should any of our greys have incontinence problems.

[cmc333]

I had an older westie that had spay incontinence and we put her on PPA. She had a small stroke. If you read the very fine print on the website of contra-indications, one of the "rare" side effects is stroke. And if your dog is on any other meds with that same possible side effect, then it's a double whammy. I would hesitate quite a long while before putting anyone on PPA again.

 

Connie

[Guest caiteag]

My Quinn was on PPA for a week or so and it gave him seizures as well. We took him off of it right away. I would always look for other alternatives before ever putting a dog on it again.

[Batmom]

If he hasn't had a round of antibiotics, I would suggest doing that. Works more often than not to stop leakage issues. Would also suggest a blood pressure check. Best luck with your boy, and fingers crossed for no more seizures.

[galgomum]

Thanks for the input every one.

 

We took him to the vet this morning and spent a long time there.

First of all, Batmom, thanks for the suggestion to have his blood pressure taken. They did so on my request.

Right now Johnny is back to his normal self, happy and goofy. But he was a bit slow on the reflex tests and he may have had a small stroke also.

If it was the Proin triggering it, we won't know, but it might have, he won't be taking that anymore.

But it is likely, specially since they did measure his blood pressure, it was very high, even for a stressed out dog.

So we do have a number to start with. Which lead to the following, he has been on thyroid medication since he was 2 or 3.

If his blood test allows it, we will lower that, since it brings the blood pressure up.

We will get a call tomorrow after his blood was tested, they are doing a full check on him, to see if there is any other problem.

 

For now we have medication to give him if he gets another seizure, his blood is being checked out and depending on that we will decide what to do next.

 

We did discuss the worst case scenario like maybe a tumor in the brain, just in case. She wanted us to know what we might be looking at (cost) eventually and think about how far we are willing to go if it comes to that.

 

But it might just as well have been a one time event triggered by the Proin.

We'll just take it day by day and see what happens.

[Fiona3]

Hoping that everything evens out for your boy and the blood pressure/thyroid issues come under control. Going day by day is the best way to proceed. He may be fine and this was only a one time event. All my good thoughts and wishes are with you.

[Batmom]

Fingers crossed for the blood test to come back OK. Really hope it was just a reaction to the meds and your boy will be just fine.

[galgomum]

The vet just called with the results of the blood test and she talked to a specialist to get his view.

 

It is very likely that the Proin triggered the seizure and the small stroke.

With blood pressure this high, he never should have gotten the medication. Unfortunately, checking for blood pressure isn't normally done.

 

They also looked if we should change his thyroid medication, but he is doing great on that.

So, he is going on Benazepril to lower his blood pressure and we will be checking it from now on.

The vet was happy that we insisted on having the blood pressure taken, so thank you Batmom.

 

We are hoping that he will have no more seizures although she warned us that there is still a slight possibility that he has something going on in his adrenal glad and they may return.

[greyhoundlov]

Our blue girl was on PPA and she had a stroke. Took 6 months of physical therapy before she could without knuckling on her right rear leg.

[Batmom]

Really hope he will have no further difficulties.

 

With Zema, we had some other clues to high blood pressure, so we knew we should check. Plus there was a very distinct pattern to her "incontinence" -- it didn't look like normal spay or old-dog incontinence so we kept hunting for answers. We used a low dose of Enalapril and a low salt diet to treat her blood pressure, and diet change to resolve her leaking-pee episodes.

 

I think over the past few years it's started to get more common to check blood pressures in dogs. Few more years, it will probably be ordinary for everybody.

[galgomum]

Really hope he will have no further difficulties.

 

With Zema, we had some other clues to high blood pressure, so we knew we should check. Plus there was a very distinct pattern to her "incontinence" -- it didn't look like normal spay or old-dog incontinence so we kept hunting for answers. We used a low dose of Enalapril and a low salt diet to treat her blood pressure, and diet change to resolve her leaking-pee episodes.

 

I think over the past few years it's started to get more common to check blood pressures in dogs. Few more years, it will probably be ordinary for everybody.

 

 

Thanks.

What kind of pattern are you talking about? With Johnny it is really when he is exited or after when he gets up.

Are there other signs you can look for?

 

I think every dog should be checked before they get certain medication.

Like for example Proin, it is a known problem and it takes only minutes to get several readings.

[Batmom]

Zema's pattern was, she would start drinking a lot in the middle of the afternoon, over 3-4 hours. Not huge amounts, but more than she needed. Then starting late afternoon through early evening, she would leak urine. Sometimes she knew she had to go out and would go. Other times it was like she didn't realize she had to go out. But the leaking bothered her and she would fuss fuss fuss. Occasionally -- usually if she got excited about something, or we people had an inconsistent schedule that day -- she would drink extra and/or leak at other times. But not very often. After I changed her food, the problem disappeared within 5 days, may have been just 2 or 3.

 

The high blood pressure, we suspected because she would pant at odd times, very red tongue and gums, red in the whites of her eyes -- as if she were excited, even when she wasn't. And when she had blood drawn she would drip (blood) more than most dogs from the puncture -- but she never had any bruising, had had some surgeries with no bleeding problems, had beautiful bloodwork, normally wouldn't bleed much if she got a scrape in the yard .....

 

Hope that helps you a little.

[Batmom]

P.S. I should note that her bp would never get very low at the vet's office, best maybe 200. But that was a lot lower than before, and the odd panting/red gums/red eyes etc. when at home pretty much went away. I thought about getting a unit that I could test her myself but never did that as she seemed to do well once treated. I did find, she did better on her dose of blood pressure meds split into morning and evening rather than once a day. With the once a day dose, she seemed a bit slow and sleepy; splitting it, she seemed herself.

[Guest mcsheltie]

P.S. I should note that her bp would never get very low at the vet's office, best maybe 200. But that was a lot lower than before, and the odd panting/red gums/red eyes etc. when at home pretty much went away. I thought about getting a unit that I could test her myself but never did that as she seemed to do well once treated. I did find, she did better on her dose of blood pressure meds split into morning and evening rather than once a day. With the once a day dose, she seemed a bit slow and sleepy; splitting it, she seemed herself.

What diet worked for her?

[Batmom]

Diet: We tried one of the low-salt prescription foods and it didn't work, either for her blood pressure or for the peeing. So I pretended she had an allergy and for 12 weeks gave her only cooked ground beef with eggshell calcium, teensy bit of sweet potato (vitamins), teensy bit of pureed peas (vitamins, fiber); freeze-dried beef or homebaked no-salt, no-oil white potato chips for treats. No salt added, no flavorings added, no extras, absolutely none.

 

IIRC we checked her bp at @ 12-14 days and it had dropped 40-60 points. Overdrinking/leaking urine had stopped within 3-5 days.

 

 

After the 12 weeks, I started very slowly adding one thing at a time -- chicken, fish, rice, oatmeal, etc. Long story short, that didn't go well and I never did figure out what she was sensitive to. I did try changing her back to commercial food once; overdrinking and leaking started a couple weeks in. When I changed her back to "her" diet, took just a couple days and she was fine again.

 

In the end, I found she could have some rice with no ill effect, a multivitamin, and @ a handful of commercial treats every day. She ate that for @ 3 years, did well, and died of something unrelated (spinal tumor).

[galgomum]

Johhny's is right now between 220 and 250. We'll be picking up the medication tomorrow when we bring the girls in for their vaccinations and health check.

I'll see if I can split it in two. I prefer that anyway for most medication.

 

Food wise I am not ready to start fooling around. When I moved in 17 months ago Johnny would have bouts of diarrhea and would go really skinny at times.

He is doing great right now, looks good, keeps weight on and no problems. Diarrhea can be one of the side effects of the new medication, so if that doesn't happen I'll be really happy, we don't need that to happen again.

I do recognize the strange drinking behavior. Johnny does it when he gets exited, he runs over to the bowls and starts drinking lots. Also, when we leave, which may explain why he leaks when we come back and he is really exited again.

Don't see too much of the other signs here. But I can keep an eye on the water intake and see if I can do something about it.

[Guest bluefawn]

I am praying for your boy and hope you can find something that works for him. This thread has been an eye-opener for me. My 13 y/o Penny has been on PPA for about 6 months now, with no side effects at all. But seeing the posts of others whose greys did have seizures and/or strokes scares me silly. I will be looking into alternatives to the Prion for sure. She gets 25 mg 2X a day (every 12 hours).

[Guest LindsaySF]

I'm late coming in to this thread. I was searching for something else seizure-related and this popped up.

 

 

Sophie has urinary incontinence due to her anti-seizure meds. I did a lot of research into Proin and I read about the strokes and seizures some dogs have had. When I mentioned this to Sophie's neurologist, he agreed, and his words were something like: "Proin is vasoconstrictor, so it tightens the urethra to stop leaking. But this can be a problem in a highly vascular breed like a Greyhound, it constricts the blood vessels also and can lead to high blood pressure, strokes, etc." We decided on DES instead of Proin, and (knock wood) Sophie has been on that with no problems.

 

 

I hope your pup feels better soon.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

Edited March 9, 2011 by LindsaySF

[Guest lizmego]

Haven't read through all responses, but I know of two dogs that were on Proin that stopped breathing and were unresponsive. One gh was home alone and had passed away (he was found when owners came home from work), the other gh was rushed to the emergency vet and given oxygen and recovered. She was taken off Proin since the vet seemed to think this was the cause. I would be seriously resitant to put my dogson Proin. But I've never had to make that decision (knock on wood).

[galgomum]

Thanks every one.

We were back to the vet last Friday and he is doing great. His blood pressure is going down, so the vet added 5 mg Benazepril to the 10 mg he already gets.

He seems to react really good to it.

He hasn't had any episodes anymore, so we keep our fingers crossed it was a one time event.

After reading everything I can find, I realize we are very lucky he is still alive. Thanks to my bad experience with Isa, he got a really low dose and that may have very well saved his life.

 

As for the leaking, he hasn't done that recently. If it stays like it is now, I'll look into belly bands, if it gets worse, we may go for hormone injections.