Most Say Dogs Can't Be Vindictive

[silverfish]

It doesn't help people to assume they know their dogs' motivations.

 

To quote Sue Ailsby:

WHY is not nearly as important as WHAT. Teach yourself to see what the dog is doing rather than worrying about why he does it.

 

WHY is not nearly as important as HOW. Teach yourself to see how the dog is being rewarded for a behaviour you don't want. Then you’ll be able to see how to stop the behaviour.

 

Well, I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with that statement. I think it is most important to know your dogs' motivations. Again, just my opinion.

 

It's true that knowing 'what' and 'how' are all you need if you're in a very rigid training programme where someone is telling you every step of the way what is required and how to accomplish it. And it's fair to say that you can get a long way working like that ... however, in situations like some of those mentioned in this thread, it ain't gonna help you much if it's not on 'the list'. Getting inside the dog's head, however, may give you a 'lightbulb moment' which can save you and your dog a lot of grief.

 

Who is Sue Ailsby? Does she have formal dog training qualifications? If so, I can't imagine her getting them without knowing the 'why' of dog behaviour.

 

And if that's so, it seems to me to be a case of 'don't do as I do, do as I say'.

[kudzu]

Silverfish, Sue Ailsby aka "Sue Eh" is a respected Canadian reward based trainer. She has quite a lot of cred. Will let Google tell you more about her & you can look here to say what her idea of a training plan is. However, I used that quote not because it was Sue's but because it was a more concise, polite way of expressing my own belief. Since it was a quote, I credited her. I could have found a similar sentiment to quote from someone else. It is one shared by many trainers. Perhaps because I took it out of context (from here) it came across as coming from some "very rigid training programme" but no trainers I work with or respect have such. Likely because it would be so prone to failure.

 

Unfortunately, my own wording was also far less accurate and should actually have used "motives" and not "motivations". I love to know what motivates my dog. One can usually can find what some of those are through observation. However, I will never be able to read my dog's mind & she's not prone to verbal discussion except in my imagination. I will never know her motives. Those motives are the 'why' and while I am somewhat open minded on the topic animal communicators, I seriously doubt many of us can read our dogs' minds. I certainly do not possess that skill. (Right now you are wishing I'd found another quote to use rather than putting it all in my own wording, no?)

 

Since I cannot ever know what my dog is thinking I will never truly know her motive, her 'why' for a particular action. Would I like to know? Oh, heck yeah! Do I try to imagine why? Sure, but it's an old habit & I'm just speculating as the OP was or any of the rest of us are when we speak as though we know the reason for our dog's actions. Sometimes we may well be correct. Through observation we can sometimes be fairly sure of the 'why'. But why does 'why' matter so very much if we are just guessing? Worse yet, why worry so much about finding out 'why' when so very many people are so quick to assign such uncharitable motives to their dog's actions such as the usual suspects of anger, jealousy, revenge, stubbornness, spite, etc. We're making assumptions then. Our own reactions to those assumptions then can often make things worse. Or it can make them right but for a different reason leading to even more confusion & worse problems later. Better to do your best to make a plan of action based on what you can observe & notice what may be the possible reward to the dog for her actions.

 

Thus it is usually much less helpful to struggle with figuring out why she is doing something. It took me a while to realize how much progress could be made faster when one dropped worrying about 'why' and concentrated more on when, where, how, & what. Why is OP's dog peeing on DPG's floor during the night? Well, first let me say what I was avoiding saying to begin with. Why did OP choose to imagine her dog as vindictive? Sheesh, does she dislike her dog that much? (You're liking Sue Eh even more now, right?) OK, so I'm using OP's example. She has now chosen vindictiveness as the most likely 'why' possibly caused by an uncomfortable sofa as the cause. She decides the first plan of action is to bring over the comfy beds from home next time. If the dog beds are brought over & the peeing stops will that prove she was right? Perhaps the dog was anxious from being away from home & the comforting familiarity was what helped. Perhaps the sofa really was uncomfortable & exacerbating an unknown physical problem with the resulting pain as the actual cause of the inappropriate elimination. Perhaps one of the other dogs was intimidating the p!$$ out of her when the humans were not there to give the normal structure. Perhaps the dogs is not as well housebroken as one thought. Perhaps the normal elimination schedule is thrown off & the dog simply could not hold it.

 

Perhaps... Perhaps... What good is this doing? Sure we'd love to know the 'why', especially if it was medical. But in this case, as in many or most cases, we simply don't. Plus, in the hypothetical above, now the dog is vindictive as proved by the success of brining dog beds. So are we still searching for a cause? Uh, nope! Have we found the solution? Yes & no. The dog beds worked so just bring them every time who spend the night away from home. Not my idea of a solution. Not always feasible. OP's dog bed idea actually does sound like a very good one & it might work but not necessarily for the reason she speculates. And what does she do from there? I would prefer to work on helping my dog be able to spend the night somewhere comfortably, without accidents, without having to always lug the home beds around. Sure I'd do it if I had to but I'd set to work on "away from home" training to ensure my dog can happily adjust to various new sleeping arrangements rather than presume she's being vindictive which could cause any accidents to make me resentful. And after it is all said & down, you still don't know why OP's dog peed on the floor at DPG's house.

 

You just don't know why. You can wish you knew. You can speculate. You might even hit on the true 'why' but you also might not. And even if you hit on the real 'why' you cannot even be certain you have. But there are still plenty of known 'what' & 'how'. Those are more readily apparent & verifiable. I'd love to know why but have chosen to stop "worrying about why" & concentrate on other things I can be much more certain of and act on with much better odds of success.

[silverfish]

Silverfish, Sue Ailsby aka "Sue Eh" is a respected Canadian reward based trainer. She has quite a lot of cred. Will let Google tell you more about her & you can look here to say what her idea of a training plan is.

 

Already did that, and I couldn't find anywhere (either on her own site or elsewhere) any hint that she has any kind of formal dog training or behaviourist qualifications. The only reference to any kind of 'qualifiation' at all is that she is a retired dog judge. This is in the 'about' section of a site belonging to her and her husband - a place you'd expect to find credentials, if there are any. The fact that she states that she's a retired dog judge and mentions no formal training suggests to me that she has none.

 

 

 

I could have found a similar sentiment to quote from someone else. It is one shared by many trainers. Perhaps because I took it out of context (from here) it came across as coming from some "very rigid training programme" but no trainers I work with or respect have such. Likely because it would be so prone to failure.

 

Fair enough. I imagine most trainers do reduce the information they want to get across to a bare minimum because people quite simply are terrible at listening and absorbing a lot of information. Why explain about dog behaviour to your audience when 'this is how you do it because .. ' is a lot shorter and stands a better chance of being listened to?

 

Unfortunately, my own wording was also far less accurate and should actually have used "motives" and not "motivations". I love to know what motivates my dog. One can usually can find what some of those are through observation. However, I will never be able to read my dog's mind & she's not prone to verbal discussion except in my imagination. I will never know her motives. Those motives are the 'why' and while I am somewhat open minded on the topic animal communicators, I seriously doubt many of us can read our dogs' minds. I certainly do not possess that skill. (Right now you are wishing I'd found another quote to use rather than putting it all in my own wording, no?)

 

I think you miss my point. If you take the time and put in the effort to learn even just a little bit about normal dog behaviour and social signals, you really don't need a dog to talk to you in human language or 'mind read'. You can read your dog and determine what is happening in his/her head, not all the time, but enough to direct your training better, and understand to a certain extent what motivates him/her. Or are you saying that if your dog stands at the food cupboard door, whines, salivates and perhaps scratches at the woodwork you are only 'guessing' that he wants food? That's a very basic example, but the more you learn about dog behaviour, the less guesswork there is.

 

Everyone who has learned knows that dogs use yawning, lip licking and head turning as calming signals. Everyone knows (who has learned) that 'whale eye' means a dog is either terrified or aggressive (read the rest of the dog to determine which). The more you learn, the more you CAN know about what your dog is thinking.

 

Motives/motivation .. pretty much the same thing in this context.

 

But why does 'why' matter so very much if we are just guessing? Worse yet, why worry so much about finding out 'why' when so very many people are so quick to assign such uncharitable motives to their dog's actions such as the usual suspects of anger, jealousy, revenge, stubbornness, spite, etc. We're making assumptions then. Our own reactions to those assumptions then can often make things worse. Or it can make them right but for a different reason leading to even more confusion & worse problems later. Better to do your best to make a plan of action based on what you can observe & notice what may be the possible reward to the dog for her actions.

 

I can agree with that up to a point. Certainly, if you make assumptions using human behaviour as a reference it's a very bad thing to try to imagine 'why'. But surely it's far better to learn something of dog behaviour and use that as a reference? Of course, if a person is unable (or unwilling) to learn and understand dog behaviour it is probably best to leave well alone to save themselves getting into deep water.

 

Well, first let me say what I was avoiding saying to begin with. Why did OP choose to imagine her dog as vindictive? Sheesh, does she dislike her dog that much? (You're liking Sue Eh even more now, right?)

 

Nope. If she truly does use 'do as I say and don't worry about why' as her basis for training, then no, I doubt I'd ever recommend her. Perhaps that's just my bias, but however good she is at training dogs herself (and possibly at training a particular type of person) she's not the trainer for me - whether or not she has actual qualifications, I'd want explanations and to know that she does know what she's talking about. I'm not talking about results. If she's popular, then certainly she can get results.

 

 

You just don't know why. You can wish you knew. You can speculate. You might even hit on the true 'why' but you also might not. And even if you hit on the real 'why' you cannot even be certain you have. But there are still plenty of known 'what' & 'how'. Those are more readily apparent & verifiable. I'd love to know why but have chosen to stop "worrying about why" & concentrate on other things I can be much more certain of and act on with much better odds of success.

 

You see, to me, you have a much, much higher chance of success if you do know 'why'. True, even the most knowledgeable dog behaviourist/expert/trainer doesn't get it right 100% of the time, but if they have a sound knowledge of dog behaviour and psychology, they stand a darned sight better chance of doing so that the average Joe. I prefer to try to put myself a rung or two up the ladder rather than stand at the bottom and wait for someone to tell me 'do this, and don't worry about 'why''

 

Again, all this is just my opinion. Perhaps I get a little caught up in this because SO MANY problems that people have with their dogs (I'm thinking of returns from my local groups as much as anything) could be avoided if only people stopped to ask 'why' and applied a little basic knowledge of dog behaviour rather than trying to apply human behaviours to the problem. It's a little bit of a hobby horse of mine, if you like.

[DevilDog]

oh well this thread took off. lol

 

I brought the beds over to DPG's place this weekend, along with their good pj's, blankets and some toys. Roscoe was definitely more comfortable... he was dead to the world like he is at home. Sage did seem happier. And to answer someones question, yes DPG has a good relationship with Sage. He always invites her up on the couch with him and they snuggle.

[silverfish]

Yes, sorry about the hijack.

 

I'm glad you have sorted out the original problem!

[Guest Swifthounds]

Not vindictive. Just ordinary animal behavior as elucidated by silverfish, JohnF, Greyt_dog_lover. As JohnF points out, when we think things through from the animal's point of view rather than our own, we can find some likely problems and remedy them.

 

The overwhelming majority of "dog problems" are really "people problems." We expect dogs to live in and navigate our human word, speak our language, and understand rules and boundaries we haven't communicated to them - all while not communicating to them in language they understand, and ignoring or misinterpreting their means of communicating with us.

 

We humans have large (comparatively) vocabularies - even the simplest of us - and have many nuanced ways to express our feelings, wants, and needs. Dogs have very few means of doing so. When they attempt to communicate with us, we have a tendency to anthropomorphize them and attribute human motives and behaviors.

[kudzu]

First, let's get this back in context. I never said that an understanding of dog behavior & body language would not be helpful nor did I say knowing why a dog does something would not be helpful. And in this context the "why" was possible vindictiveness. Sorry, but I do not believe that you could look at a dog's behavior or body language with even the greatest amount of studying and be able to determine if a dog was vindictive.

 

Now the 'why' could be any variety of other things. You gave the following example:

Or are you saying that if your dog stands at the food cupboard door, whines, salivates and perhaps scratches at the woodwork you are only 'guessing' that he wants food? That's a very basic example, but the more you learn about dog behaviour, the less guesswork there is.

Well, yes it is guessing but you didn't just guess. You first did exactly what I was suggesting should be done. You paid attention to what the dog was doing & identified the likely reward for this behavior. Thanks for helping to explain my point! Of course, there could also have been a mouse in the cabinet or maybe even a cat. Yes, we suddenly had a dog rush over to the food cupboard when a cat was inside. However, your guess was the more likely reason and the most logical place to start when trying to change the dog's behavior.

 

Everyone who has learned knows that dogs use yawning, lip licking and head turning as calming signals.

Among other reasons & actually even then we do not "know" they are trying to calm. That's Turid's word for it. Some others have a quibble with that term. I think it as good as any even if it could at times mislead our thinking a bit.

 

Everyone knows (who has learned) that 'whale eye' means a dog is either terrified or aggressive (read the rest of the dog to determine which).

No, everyone does not know that. And anyone who thinks they have learned that has learned only the more extreme reasons that may produce a whale eye. Also, by the time a dog is behaving aggressively you are quite often past the whale eye stage. Seems it is more often seen right before aggression. That is why it is of such significance when working with dogs who have shown a propensity to aggressive behavior.

 

The more you learn, the more you CAN know about what your dog is thinking.

Nope, still can't know what they're thinking. No amount of knowledge will ever make me a mind reader.

 

If she truly does use 'do as I say and don't worry about why' as her basis for training, then no, I doubt I'd ever recommend her. Perhaps that's just my bias,

I've no idea how you've come to this conclusion about her. I already provided the link to her site. All her training info is up there free for anyone to use. You can read it if at some point you wanted to come to an informed decision. However, she has nothing to do with this except that I chose to use that quote in the belief it would make my explanation shorter. That clearly did not work.

[Guest cwholsin]

That reminds me of my little Macy. When she first arrived, she & I went through a little power struggle to establish who was the top b**** in the house. I kept telling her it was me, but she kept insisting it was her. So, if I ever corrected her for anything, she would leave me a present either right behind my computer chair or on the floor in the bedroom by my side of the bed. Never anywhere else, and she was a dog who could get outside through the dog door anytime she wanted and a dog who would go out in a thunderstorm if she had to do her business. Anyway, once I convinced her I am the ruler of the kingdom, the presents stopped.

 

And my cat, oh, don't get me started. He's so bad that if I do something that displeases him, my family will say, "You'll pay for that later." And generally, I do. He's been known to seek out my photography magazines and leave.....well, I wouldn't call them presents. When he's finished, the magazine is trash. Doesn't do it to anybody else in the house, just me.

 

 

 

Lord, when cats leave their $h!t in the open, it's a slap in the face to the other occupants! It's their way of saying I'M top cat--feel my displeasure!

[Guest Swifthounds]

Lord, when cats leave their $h!t in the open, it's a slap in the face to the other occupants! It's their way of saying I'M top cat--feel my displeasure!

 

Or, I'm sick, I'm unhappy, the litterbox smells...

[winnie]

Lord, when cats leave their $h!t in the open, it's a slap in the face to the other occupants! It's their way of saying I'M top cat--feel my displeasure!

 

Or, I'm sick, I'm unhappy, the litterbox smells...

 

Or, I was a feral cat and don't really understand the concept of covering poop (we have a former feral that never covers his poop - he is definitely not the alpha either).

[DevilDog]

So... Sage unloaded a full bladder on my BF's carpet yesterday morning and again this morning. HELP! We sleep there half of the week, she should be used to it by now. It's relatively quiet over there, she has her bed and toys.. she's even allowed couch privledges (she isn't at home). She likes my BF, they snuggle and play, food is the same, potty times are the same. I don't believe for a second that she can't hold it.... she does not do this at home!! I don't know why she could still be stressed.... this has pretty much become our new routine and it's been about 6 weeks since we started sleeping there.

 

BF is NOT happy.

 

Help?

[kudzu]

• 
   
  
• Are you sure it was Sage? Yes, I know I could tell the difference between most male & female... um... marks, but I've not seen in this thread anything about DGP's dogs, if he has any. If he does, how might they figure into this?
  
• There are plenty of questions like where does she sleep at home? Could being separated from you be causing anxiety?
  
• Has she traveled on enough overnight trips to really know that nights in a new location require holding it? Most dogs I've had learn to adjust quickly to visits to familiar places. In the beginning though, they need some help.
  
• You said she seemed happier with her stuff over there. What did she do or not do that gave this impression? Has it changed since then?
  
• Are the accidents always in the same area? Have the prior accidents been treated with an enzymatic cleaner?
  

 

In the long run she either doesn't really understand she needs to hold it there or she is for some reason unable to. Treating her as if she does not know the rules is what I would do first. You need to help her & DGP by preventing the accidents as best you can & protecting his floor. (I know you know that, just thinking out loud.) Crating or otherwise confining her is your best bet. If not already doing so then a potty walk immediately before bed is in order. If she is still seeming anxious or otherwise not her normal happy self there at night you may need to come up with a way to help her feel better there.

 

It's a frustrating situation for all parties. Hope you find a solution.

Edited January 31, 2011 by kudzu

[DevilDog]

Positive it was Sage. Roscoe is my good boy and DPG's dog is fully house trained. Plus when I brought Sage out, she only had a tiny tinkle.. the other dogs had full bladders.

 

At home Sage sleeps in my room on a dog bed. At DPG's, there's no room for dog beds in his bedroom, but the beds are right outside the door which is left open. She's also allowed to sleep on the bed w me. But this morning, she peed right after I fed breakfast when I was actually preparing to take them out. See at home, I get up for work, shower, dress, feed them, and then going outside is the last thing we do. I guess at DPG's, I need to bring her out immediately.. but on Sunday morning she peed earlier in the AM, before we got up, so..

 

No.. she really hasn't traveled any trips except Dewey in October. But then I think I was on her more in the beginning to make sure she knew where to go. I never really did that at DPG's. What I always did with Roscoe when we went somewhere new was to bring him in, let him sniff around, then bring him outside and show him where to potty and he was good. I supposed I assumed the same for Sage..

 

When I brought the dog beds, etc over there, she seemed happier because she was spending more napping time on her favorite bed. She also seemed to be sleeping more soundly. Nothing has changed since then.

 

Yes the accidents are in the same area. I've cleaned them with a pet carpet cleaner.. don't know if it's enzymatic though.

 

But overall I think you're right, Kudzu. I need to be more viligent with her.

[NeylasMom]

You need to take her out first thing! Then bring her in and feed her, do whatever else.

[Guest Swifthounds]

You need to take her out first thing! Then bring her in and feed her, do whatever else.

 

 

Also, the BF has a dog, no? Two hounds is not a pack; three dogs is. As the situation stands now, Sage is sometimes in a pack and sometimes not. That's quite an adjustment for a dog.

[kudzu]

And DPG's dogs are in a pack as well, on their own territory. You know your dog nest & quite likely are correct about the culprit. Yet more than one pet owner, myself included, has been shocked to find their impeccably housebroken, "never had an an acvident in the house" dog suddenly change when caninr guests end up staying longer than expected. Can you set up a camera to see what exactly is happening?

[Guest PiagetsMom]

Lisa, my Piaget, under normal circumstances, never, never has an accident here at the house. But, I have never taken her to another home that she has not peed in the house, and if I have another dog here at the house (and no, that dog does not have to pee in my house) Piaget will proceed to pee where that dog was. Here at home, I assume that it's marking. At other homes, I'm pretty sure she's marking as well, as there are, or have been, other dogs there, also. It's one of the reasons I don't take my pups to anyone else's home - it's embarrassing as hell. But fortunately that's something I can avoid as I'm not splitting my time at another's home. I wish I had some advice - hopefully you can find a solution for Sage