Animals Make Us Human

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Merlin,

Ok, so you respect your greyhounds as sentient beings, then why not give them the choice of meat/vegetarian diet? You say earlier in your posts you dont force your ideals on others, but if you dont give your own hounds the choice, isnt that what you are doing?

[MerlinsMum]

Merlin,

Ok, so you respect your greyhounds as sentient beings, then why not give them the choice of meat/vegetarian diet? You say earlier in your posts you dont force your ideals on others, but if you dont give your own hounds the choice, isnt that what you are doing?

 

Don't be absurd.

 

As guardians to our animal companions we make choices for them ALL the time, every single day. We do it keeping in mind many factors, and always their best interest. They can't make choices for themselves the way we can. Why leash your greyhound? Why don't you just let him off-leash when you walk him and give him the choice? I'm sure he'd much prefer to be off-leash. Do you do that? Of course not, because you don't want him to be run over or get lost. Do you take your greyhound out into the wild and let him/her chase after other animals, kill, main or harass squirrels and birds and other wildlife? Of course not.

 

You make choices for your greyhound every single day. There is absolutely no difference between what you do and what I do.

[Guest SoulsMom]

Oh my goodness I just had to laugh at the thought of letting Soul choose what he eats

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

I actually do allow my hounds to eat what they kill. If they can catch a squirrel or rabbit in my yard, then they get to eat their kill. I was not being absurd, put two bowls of food down, one containing meat, one containing vegetarian, you know as well as I do which your hound would choose. And maybe, just maybe the choice that the hound makes is more species correct for what their bodies need.

[Guest SoulsMom]

Deb needs to pop in here and tell what happened when she tried to feed Soul raw when he was staying with her What they would 'choose' is not necessarily what you think it might be . . . oh and no way would I let Soul eat his kill. I have enough problems with his tummy and who knows what diseases varmin might have.

[MerlinsMum]

I actually do allow my hounds to eat what they kill. If they can catch a squirrel or rabbit in my yard, then they get to eat their kill. I was not being absurd, put two bowls of food down, one containing meat, one containing vegetarian, you know as well as I do which your hound would choose. And maybe, just maybe the choice that the hound makes is more species correct for what their bodies need.

 

Interesting you should say that, because when I brought home the Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula (which is also vegan), Merlin went NUTS. This is the dog who will never get up from his couch while I'm preparing dinner because he is waaaay too lazy and waits until the last minute, when everything is ready and I call him. But since I've started giving him this food he is in the kitchen the moment he hears me open the Vittles Vault. And it's not a reflection on his previous diet being boring, because I add a lot of different things to the dogs' kibble - fruit, pasta, etc.

 

So I guess that kinda kills your argument, doesn't it?

 

Deb needs to pop in here and tell what happened when she tried to feed Soul raw when he was staying with her What they would 'choose' is not necessarily what you think it might be . . . oh and no way would I let Soul eat his kill. I have enough problems with his tummy and who knows what diseases varmin might have.

 

Exactly.

[Guest barkdogs]

Hmmmm. . . .anyone who has a pet dog (or cat) is part of part of the cycle of killing of certain species, as dogs and cats are carnivores. I would respectfully suggest that true veganism would include a ban on having any animals as companions (a view held by certain groups) Personally, I think we need to remember that we, too, are animals. Species on this planet do not live in a vacuum. Like it or not, we are one more species on this ball of rock and water. What we do impacts our fellow species more than we know--if one eschews the wearing of leather, remember that the production of cotton kills millions of animals through the use of farm equipment, pesticides, etc. Same with using leather substitutes (usually made with stuff derived from petroleum)

 

Personally, I am not a big fan of meat, although I eat it upon occasion. My dogs eat meat, being dogs; I try as far as possible to get it from humane sources. In an ideal world, animals (and humans) would never suffer, but in this one, we (as in all species) do. We have the ability to minimize suffering, more so than other species. Temple Grandin is doing something that actually impacts the quality of life for millions of farm animals around the country, if not in other parts of the world. That is a tangible difference, and I applaud her for it. It is far from perfect, but evolution, be it biological or intellectual, is a gradual process, and she has done much to provide practical solutions to the horrors of industrial farming.

[MerlinsMum]

Hmmmm. . . .anyone who has a pet dog (or cat) is part of part of the cycle of killing of certain species, as dogs and cats are carnivores. I would respectfully suggest that true veganism would include a ban on having any animals as companions (a view held by certain groups).

 

You're right. That is very much part of the ethical vegan perspective. I abhor the pet trade, and wish that we would stop bringing into existence animal companions because it is selfish on our part. We do it for us, not for them. While I do not take the blame for the mess that other people created (in this case, the greyhound racing industry, but it could be anyone who breeds animals for profit), I do think it is my duty to help those non-human animals who are victims of our greed and are now looking for homes. Which is why I adopted both my dogs, and will adopt dogs in the future, if I can afford to. To me, these animals are refugees, and I feel I should do my part in making sure they have as happy a life as possible, and making sure that they are loved However, I think it is wrong to bring more of them into existence. They lead incredibly unnatural lives... lying on a couch for the vast majority of the day, or in crates getting awfully bored, waiting for us to come back from work, and then spending just a few hours with us before it starts all over again. That's no way to live. I feel very sorry for animal companions.

Edited May 14, 2010 by MerlinsMum

[Guest barkdogs]

I do not feel sorry for my animal companions, although I share your distaste for the pet trade. They are happy and well adjusted. Their lives aren't perfect; neither is mine, but I get a great deal from them and it is obvious to me that they enjoy my companionship, too. I spend a huge amount of my time and income to ensure that they get to have "dog fun," and to see that they eat a healthy diet and that they receive great care. I would love to see a moratorium on breeding until there are no unwanted or abused pets--in my opinion an animal companion (or a child) is a privilege and a supreme responsibility, not a commodity. But I would hate to live in a world with no relationships with other species. Other species interact with each other all the time--often in ways that are not great for one individual or the other (think of being a lion's dinner or a cat's plaything) We can make the choice to be more humane, or not to have contact (or to use) other species at all if they choose to. That is really up to individuals, and to communities and governments made up of individuals (as in passing humane legislation).

 

Domestication is a genetic difference, not simply a matter of taming an animal. That is why wild animals make poor pets, and why domesticated animals fare very poorly when abandoned to so called "natural" lives. However one may view it, they are physically and mentally modified for life with humans, and have been so for, at least in the case of dogs, tens of thousands of years. I would love to see a day when no domestic animal is brought into the world without a loving and capable home, but then, I would also love to see the day when no unwanted, and subsequently abused and abandoned human babies are brought into the world either. I don't want to be in a world with no domestic animals.

 

I applaud your wish to keep and love your dogs and to also explore ways of feeding them a healthy diet with less impact on other species. If it works out, you have an opportunity to perhaps encourage studies which would perhaps lead to more widespread acceptance. I teach anatomy at a veterinary school and my observation of the canine dentition and digestive tract is that it seems much more alligned to that of pure carnivores (cats) then to "true" omnivores or herbivores. But dogs are also an incredibly adaptable species. I have my doubts about the efficacy of a vegan diet for dogs, but who knows. Best of luck!

[MerlinsMum]

Thank you for your interesting post

 

As far as I understand from the research I've done, the issue is still very much controversial.

 

From Wikipedia (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog for list of references)

 

Some sources describe dogs as carnivores.[117][118] Other sources describe dogs as omnivores, despite their descent from wolves and despite their classification in the order Carnivora.[1][119][120][121] Unlike an obligate carnivore, such as a member of the cat family with its shorter small intestine, a dog is neither dependent on meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill its basic dietary requirements. Dogs are able to healthily digest a variety of foods, including vegetables and grains, and can consume a large proportion of these in their diet. In the wild, canines often eat available plants and fruits.

 

Also, unless I'm mistaken, dogs have shorter intestinal tracts than that of humans (who do better on a plant-based diet) but longer than cats, who are obligate carnivores (correct me if I am wrong, since you are much more knowledgeable than me in the field of anatomy). Interestingly, dogs are evolutionarily close to bears, who are omnivores who eat mostly fruit, berries and nuts.

 

When I was researching switching my two to a vegan diet ( I did so for many months, to make sure I did things right), there was one argument that kept coming up - the fact that asking whether the canine diet should contain meat or not is simply the wrong question. The right question is, what should the canine diet include in order to be nutritionally adequate and balanced? And the fact is that all essential nutrients required in the dog's diet can be met without any animal products whatsoever. Every single amino acid, fatty acid, carbohydrate, vitamin and mineral can be provided quite adequately in a vegan diet in sufficient quantity and in reasonably bio-available form them to thrive. (O'Heare) You will find this view validated by the National Research Council's Nutrient Requirements for Dogs and Cats and by Hand, Thatcher, Remillard & Roudebush's Small Animal Clinical Nutrition.

 

Furthermore, there is (so far anecdotal) evidence that suggests that many dogs fed a vegan diet are healthier and live longer. However, since this has not been scientifically validated, there is no way of saying for sure. And I will concede that some dogs do very well on a vegan diet while others don't do well at all. However, it seems that most dogs do just fine. And, of course, there are dogs who can ONLY eat a plant-based diet because of allergies, etc. And the number of such dogs is clearly increasing, as evidenced by the fact that several commercial dog food companies are now offering vegetarian formulas.

 

Edited May 15, 2010 by MerlinsMum

[Guest barkdogs]

It is possible that dogs could do well--as I said, it would be interesting to see some studies to get a better picture (humanely conducted, of course) Actually, a dog's GI is very similar to a cat's regarding structure and relative length of jejunum, ascending/descending colon, etc. The cecum of the cat is somewhat smaller and simpler. Cats also have a shorter jaw and less molars (less crushing power for bones and other hard stuff, I presume) their back teeth are mostly sheering type teeth, also referred to as "carnasials." Dogs have the full complement of carnasials as well as the greater complement of "crushers." Other than that though, from a gross anatomical perspective, there is less difference than one might think on the inside of dogs and cats (or humans, for that matter!)

 

Cats do require certain amino acids that are only available from a carnivorous diet. As to the assertions that dogs can get all their dietary needs from plants, who knows. Aminos and certain nutrients that exist in multiple food sources cannot always be absorbed in the same way by different species. For example, take calcium--humans can absorb it in foods but if one takes supplements they don't always work--it needs to be in a soluble form to really work.

 

It will be interesting to see how this works for your dogs--I hope you share your observations and experiences! Good luck!

[MerlinsMum]

Cheers!

[kronckew]

i suspect it is not us 'forcing' dogs to be our companions, they chose us as well as us choosing them, if not more so. by associating with humans they have used us to become one of the more successful species on the planet while the source species (wolves) is endangered. cats and a few others have also learned this trick. it is not slavery as PETArds would have you believe, but a symbiosis. again, it is our jobs to make our canine partners as healthy and contented as possible. that's why they let us stay in overall control and put up with a lot of idiotic humans - the partnership works.