New Vet, New Anxiety, Another Dental For Lucy

[fritofeet]

I'm gonna ramble with Lucy's dental saga...it's mostly for me, since I'm frustrated and anxious. I haven't found a really great vet yet. I thought the last one would be good, as my friend works there as a tech-but she doesn't work for the vet we have seen. I talked to them when I brought Lucy in about her dental issues, that in mere weeks after having a dental she looks like she needs another. The response I got was, well if this one doesn't work we can just pull the rest. Not exactly the response I was looking for. I'm sure this guy is a great vet, but he's just not OUR great vet.

 

Lucy had 2 dentals last year-one in the beginning of the year and the second in October. (Plus another in feb this year)She has always had receeding gums and very worn discolored teeth (I assume crate chewing) but the good dental gal has always said her roots are solid-packed her gums with doxirobe and sent her on her way. She has never needed a second dental in a year when we were at that clinic. I cannot, ever ever ever ever go back to that clinic though.

Anyway, fast forward-Lucy is about to have her 5th dental in approx 2 years. The vet we saw yesterday was horrified when I told him he last dental was the end of Feb, and when I had asked them for a second round of antibiotics-they had me bring her in-took her temp and told me I just needed to brush more and use the chlorahexadine rinse more. I swear her gums bleed if you look at them, and her breath can stop birds in mid-flight.

 

She doesn't have a tarter issue, it is her red swollen gums that have receeded above the root line now-so she will have to have a few more removed for sure. Lucy's fine without teeth, she has long since gotten over the embarresment of having her tongue stuck to the floor after a long hard sleep and honestly would prefer canned food as it is tastier and more fun to push around the bowl with her nose and works way better for snout art on the patio door and couch. The only time she complains is when I am brushing her teeth (actually when DS brushes her teeth). We use enzymatic toothpaste, dentatreat, chlorahexadrine rinses, chews ect. I even rinse her mouth out with a spray bottle after meals and recently started adding vitamin c to her diet. I do think this has helped her gums some, and honestly her mouth looks better if I don't brush the gunk out. Even if we use guaze, her mouth still bleeds though.

 

 

So, I guess my questions are.....

 

Anyone ever gone through this with their greys? I know they have bad teeth, but even the vet said this isn't normal. Do you just pull them all?

 

Is it possible all of the brushing did this? I soak the toothbrushes in hydrogen peroxide after using them, and then let them dry so they don't habor bacteria. I have been afraid with her mouth so rotten that all I am doing is pushing more up under her gum line.

 

Is it possible this is from a bad dental? Bacteria pushed under the gumline and it has just gotten worse?

 

Should I even try to save her teeth? The vet said most of the ones that are left-the roots seem solid-but there are some that the gumline is pulled back from or ulcered and those will have to come out.

 

And then I guess my final questions are about BUN values. I had them run a blood panel, and she always has an elevated BUN. I didn't get the values this time and only got the voice mail, but I'll pull her records when I get home and fax those over tomorrow. I'm just not sure what to ask the vet about it. She mentioned lots of fluid while under anesthesia, but also mentioned checking the protien level of her food. Lucy isn't on a really high protien food, 25% which I think is average but could be wrong. What are normal greyhound values for kidneys? What level would you be concerned for a senior dog, and want to do a food change? She has had the kidney values elevated before, and was eating a different food. I'll have to check the protien values of those foods-but last blood panel she was on the same food and supposedly the values were normal.

Thoughts, ideas, any suggestions?

 

If you made it this far, I appreciate it.

Edited June 4, 2009 by fritofeet

[Guest RynnAndLyra]

Hi Sue,

 

I am sorry you are going through this with Lucy. I think that sometimes they are just like people - some are blessed with great teeth/gums - others - no matter what you do - are just bad. I know Xan has the same problem with Brilly.

 

I hope you get some answers for Lucy.

 

Merann

[Burpdog]

Slightly elevated BUN and creatine is normal with rotten teeth, and normal in some greys regardless. Some greys just have bad mouths. Mizzy had a dental in February and I looked in her mouth the other day, and went "phooey". She will be an every 6 month girl.

 

No I wouldn't worry about food until you do blood work after the dental. Find out exactly what the values were.

 

Rotten teeth can also affect the heart and since they can do well without teeth, I'd take out the bad ones. I'd fight to leave the canines.

 

How old is she?

 

[fritofeet]

Slightly elevated BUN and creatine is normal with rotten teeth, and normal in some greys regardless. Some greys just have bad mouths. Mizzy had a dental in February and I looked in her mouth the other day, and went "phooey". She will be an every 6 month girl.

 

No I wouldn't worry about food until you do blood work after the dental. Find out exactly what the values were.

 

Rotten teeth can also affect the heart and since they can do well without teeth, I'd take out the bad ones. I'd fight to leave the canines.

 

How old is she?

 

Lucy turned 12 in Dec, but Diesel's teeth are perfect for a 12 year old which is what befuddles me since they are sibs.

Dental is scheduled for Thursday (they moved her to a slower day so they could do a really good job) and put her on a months worth of clindamiacin BEFORE we even start the dental. Plus they had runners in the office so I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high.

[Guest lizmego]

Lucy must be Effee's sister! We adopted Effee at age 4.5 and our vet in Springfield Mo was not comfortable with pulling intact teeth, which Effee needed done. He would pull loose teeth though, he also wanted to do dentals every quarter, we were so not willing to do that and place Effee under 4x anesthesia every year. Once we moved to Kansas City MO we found a clinic with a dental specialist, and took Effee in to see him. We were brushing daily, rinsing daily, all kinds of regimens to fix her mouth - nothing worked. Effee was only eating one meal a day then cause her mouth hurt so badly. The dental vet said we have to remove the teeth, so we did. It took four dentals total to remove all her teeth. 1st dental was to remove 21 teeth, second removed some more and a canine, 3rd dental to remove 2 canines, and the 4th to remove the final canine (I think it was 4 dentals) over about 2 years. So now at age 12, she's been toothless for about 2 years now and Effee is a completely different dog - he gums are a healthly pink, not rotting smell from her mouth, and she plays more and eats so much better. I just know that we've added years to her life by pulling all of her teeth. I would HIGHLY encourage you to find a dental vet specialist in your area...I'm more than happy to ask our dental vet for a recommendation if you'll give me your city/state.

 

ETA: I did go back and read your posts and I am concerned about Lucy's age...to start this process at 12 y.o....that's a tough decision. We pulled Effe's teeth when she was 10. You'd need to speak to a dental specialist about Lucy's health. Any idea how many teeth Lucy's has left in her mouth?

Edited June 2, 2009 by lizmego

[fritofeet]

Lucy must be Effee's sister! We adopted Effee at age 4.5 and our vet in Springfield Mo was not comfortable with pulling intact teeth, which Effee needed done. He would pull loose teeth though, he also wanted to do dentals every quarter, we were so not willing to do that and place Effee under 4x anesthesia every year. Once we moved to Kansas City MO we found a clinic with a dental specialist, and took Effee in to see him. We were brushing daily, rinsing daily, all kinds of regimens to fix her mouth - nothing worked. Effee was only eating one meal a day then cause her mouth hurt so badly. The dental vet said we have to remove the teeth, so we did. It took four dentals total to remove all her teeth. 1st dental was to remove 21 teeth, second removed some more and a canine, 3rd dental to remove 2 canines, and the 4th to remove the final canine (I think it was 4 dentals) over about 2 years. So now at age 12, she's been toothless for about 2 years now and Effee is a completely different dog - he gums are a healthly pink, not rotting smell from her mouth, and she plays more and eats so much better. I just know that we've added years to her life by pulling all of her teeth. I would HIGHLY encourage you to find a dental vet specialist in your area...I'm more than happy to ask our dental vet for a recommendation if you'll give me your city/state.

 

ETA: I did go back and read your posts and I am concerned about Lucy's age...to start this process at 12 y.o....that's a tough decision. We pulled Effe's teeth when she was 10. You'd need to speak to a dental specialist about Lucy's health. Any idea how many teeth Lucy's has left in her mouth?

 

 

From what I understand, there aren't any dental specialists in the area. I'm actually running out of vets to try too. It is hard to know what to do, as she does eat all of her kibble-but I put hot water on it and she doesn't chew it. Her weight is good, she still plays if she thinks we aren't watching. Her vision isn't great since she had a stroke or TIA or whatever it was. After pulling up more old posts on kidney values-I'm going to go the route of re-test after the dental. I just listened to the vet's message again in that her kidney values were slightly elevated and they would use lots of fluids to protect her kidneys during the dental. I can talk to her more about it on thursday when I bring Lucy in.

Thursday is looking fun.... .

 

Slightly elevated BUN and creatine is normal with rotten teeth, and normal in some greys regardless. Some greys just have bad mouths. Mizzy had a dental in February and I looked in her mouth the other day, and went "phooey". She will be an every 6 month girl.

 

No I wouldn't worry about food until you do blood work after the dental. Find out exactly what the values were.

 

Rotten teeth can also affect the heart and since they can do well without teeth, I'd take out the bad ones. I'd fight to leave the canines.

 

How old is she?

 

Why would you fight for the canines? For tongue containment properties, recovery from extraction or is there another need I haven't found? The vet had mentioned he was concerned about one of the canines since she has major erosion around the gums there. Gaaaaaaah!!!! I'm so glad I'm with friends...

[fritofeet]

Lucy is in for her dental...she was KNOT happy about me leaving her there but was a good sport about it. She kept trying to hide behind my legs and be invisible and you could feel her willing the doors to open for an escape.

Anyway, her gums look much better after several days of antibiotics, but the vet pointed out ulcers on the cheek flaps and gave me a diagnosis for Lucy. I can't remember the medical term...but she called it cups I think. Canine Ulcerative something something and said it does tend to happen with greyhounds more and promised reading material for me. SHe also wants to discuss a low dose of doxycycline as an anti-inflamatory as it may not go away with tooth extraction. I've never heard of this, but I may have mis-heard. It was a late night and a very early morning.

 

I know I need to ask if the ulcers and kidney values have any link...so I better get my list together for later. Think good thoughts for Miss Lucyfur please.

[Guest Flint]

I'm glad you have a diagnosis, sounds like you may have a good vet. I found some info on it. Says it's common in Greyhounds but I've never heard of it before.

 

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.js...tm/bc/23104.htm

 

Sending good, healing thoughts to Miss Lucy Lou.

[fritofeet]

I'm glad you have a diagnosis, sounds like you may have a good vet. I found some info on it. Says it's common in Greyhounds but I've never heard of it before.

 

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.js...tm/bc/23104.htm

 

Sending good, healing thoughts to Miss Lucy Lou.

 

 

That's it! That is exactly what her mouth looks like only worse. So out of the 5 vets I have been to here, this is the first one to give me a diagnosis. The morning office staff leaves something to be desired, but the vets seem to work well together, and they have runners for the dogs who don't like shiny floors.

 

Thank you for finding that link.

[fritofeet]

Lucy is up and alert after her dental. The vet removed 9 more teeth, and left her canines. Lucy also had the bonus of them finding a growth behind her very back molars and they took that out too. We are going to discuss that when I pick her up, but the vet described it as an old dog thing that sometimes happens and told me not to freak out. Should have biopsy results in a couple of days and I can pick her up after 3.

[sweetdogs]

I hope Lucy feels better after all this - I'm sure she will. Sounds like this vet knows his stuff. Maybe the growth they removed is an epulis? Faolin had one & the vet popped it off with her finger. She told me they are generally harmless.

 

On the leaving the canines in if possible, the roots are very deep & it's tougher to get them out plus they provide stability for the jaw & any remaining teeth. If they were diseased, it's better to get them out, but if not, better to leave them in.

[Guest VanillaBean]

I am so glad you finally found out what it is! My dog has these same ulcers in his mouth. Now, I will be armed with information for my next visit. He is very miserable.

[fritofeet]

I hope Lucy feels better after all this - I'm sure she will. Sounds like this vet knows his stuff. Maybe the growth they removed is an epulis? Faolin had one & the vet popped it off with her finger. She told me they are generally harmless.

 

On the leaving the canines in if possible, the roots are very deep & it's tougher to get them out plus they provide stability for the jaw & any remaining teeth. If they were diseased, it's better to get them out, but if not, better to leave them in.

 

 

Poor Lucy is a drooling mess. I'm sure it will be better, and yes it was an epulis according to the vet. It looks like she will have 1 more dental where they remove the remainders, but hopefully awhile from now. We will have to see how the canines do.

 

I guess I am relieved to know it isn't just normal rotten greyhound mouth, and I'm not totally crazy. I feel really bad about the sores and that I didn't find someone who could help her sooner. Poor girl gets to be brushed and brushed and brushed....

 

Lucy says thanks to everybody who was thinking about her.

[Guest vahoundlover]

Glad you finally got a DX. Sending lots of quick healing thoughts for Miss Lucy.

[Batmom]

IIRC catsmom has a dog with CUPS. Don't know if she is ever here anymore but she might visit the gpawisconsin.org forum.

 

Sending gentle scritchies for your girlie.