Severe Ibd On Top Of Sibo

[greyhead]

After treating Spencer for SIBO caused by Clostridium bacteria, using three antibiotics, all of which led to some but not complete improvement, we had an ultrasound done on Tuesday. The vet made an appointment to give me the results today, and the diagnosis is now severe IBD. On the plus side, it's nothing worse! No sign of cancer or anything else. All other organs in good shape, all though the stomach wall is also thickened and somewhat unhappy. The main problem, though, is the small intestine and the jejunum where it meets the large intestine. And all this is probably the basis for the intestinal malabsorption that was determined months ago.

 

Enlarged lymph nodes are also part of this, and that's compatible with IBD, says the report, but I'm not clear exactly why they're working so hard. Do any of you understand this?

 

The vet is going to consult with the internist about next steps. She herself doesn't think a surgical biopsy would do much beyond confirming what the ultrasound already shows, and it would have the disadvantages of, well, surgery. So if the internist concurs, then the decisions will involve which steroid(s) to use and what food. I already know that these two vets have completely different ideas about prednisone and what constitutes a "large" dose, so that should be an interesting conversation!

 

Right now he's doing pretty well on raw venison, which he has been on exclusively for several days. (I finally realized he wasn't making any progress on chicken, whether cooked or raw.) But the vet says she has had good results with similar cases, including her own dog, using Purina's DCO (?) food. Any experience with that?

 

So I'm relieved to finally get this answer, but a little sad too. I said "it's treatable," and the vet said: Yeah, but if we don't get a handle on it pretty soon, it will do him in. I guess I draw hope from the thought that this is one TOUGH dog. He even managed to regain 10 of the 20 lbs he lost with the SIBO and intestinal malabsorption that we knew about, and he's holding them! And he has already been through chronic hookworm and lumbosacral stenosis. So I have a lot of faith in Spencer's endurance and his determination to stick around.

 

BUT I'm absolutely certain that we'll make better treatment decisions, which will be important, with input from GTers that know more than we do. So if anyone has any thoughts at all after reading this, you are cordially invited to share them!!! Thank you so much for the support you've already provided during these months of Spencer's struggles. For you: (And I'll update probably Monday, after the vets have had their pow-wow.)

Edited May 1, 2009 by greyhead

[Guest LynnM]

Get him on steroids already! The only reason to not start 'roids already is because youre ruling out cancer. Since that's out, you're good.

 

Flagyl/metrinodazole will help, too.

 

Whether you choose budesonide or predinone or some combo of both, it'll take a couple of weeks to put on weight. His poops will firm up almost immediately, but weight gain will take a little time.

 

Lynn

 

eta, we feed eukanuba low residue, though purina's version has done just as well with outher dogs I've known.

[Guest zoolaine]

Poor Spencer. Glad that there is no cancer or anything like that. To me that was worth the cost of Sunny's ultrasound. Sunny is still on budesonide and azathrioprine and is staying just below normal range (they drop the metronizadole several weeks ago and added B12 injections).

I remember reading something about the protein (Sunny has protein losing enteropathy) being lost through the lymph system. A fatty meal causes the lymph system to work harder, and opens up my fluid and proteins to move into the tissues. so maybe that has something to do with Spencer's enlarged lymph nodes. Give him a hug for us. Will be interested to see what they have to say on Monday.

[ahicks51]

Enlarged lymph nodes: If there is ulceration, it means bacteria are getting out of the gut and into the bloodstream. Enlargement of the nodes is a consequence of infection management in mammals.

 

Traditional route: antibiotics such as Flagyl (metronidizole), steroids, immunomodulators, etc.

 

Theoretical: proper diet, including raw food and no added carbohydrates.

 

Wacky but used successfully in humans: fecal bacteriotherapy, colloquially known as a "fecal transplant."

[greyhead]

Get him on steroids already! The only reason to not start 'roids already is because youre ruling out cancer. Since that's out, you're good.

 

Flagyl/metrinodazole will help, too.

Thanks, Lynn. I didn't know Flagyl was part of the treatment. He has been on it for almost two weeks and is just running out, as I told the vet. Maybe I should call her tomorrow and ask for at least that much right away. He has been on 1000 mg twice a day, which a lot of people consider high in general. What's a typical dose for IBD? We had been using it for the SIBO, and 500 mg twice a day hadn't worked previously.

[greyhead]

Poor Spencer. Glad that there is no cancer or anything like that. To me that was worth the cost of Sunny's ultrasound. Sunny is still on budesonide and azathrioprine and is staying just below normal range (they drop the metronizadole several weeks ago and added B12 injections).

I remember reading something about the protein (Sunny has protein losing enteropathy) being lost through the lymph system. A fatty meal causes the lymph system to work harder, and opens up my fluid and proteins to move into the tissues. so maybe that has something to do with Spencer's enlarged lymph nodes. Give him a hug for us. Will be interested to see what they have to say on Monday.

Thanks, Holli. I'm curious how it's decided which steroids to use. Are some more effective than others for IBD for all dogs, or is it a matter of which side effects can be tolerated?

 

On the fat thing, I've kept fat almost entirely out of Spencer's diet for weeks, so I can't imagine that's it in his case. I did this because I was worried about a gall stone being responsible for his white poop, blocking the bile duct. Vet says there's no evidence of any blockage, but the duct is really small, and there could have been temporary swelling that closed it off.

[Guest Spencers_Greyt]

Hi Mary - I have no advice but big hugs to you and poor Spencer!

 

[greyhead]

Thanks, Donna. Love to you and your Spencer, Emmy and Buzz!

 

Enlarged lymph nodes: If there is ulceration, it means bacteria are getting out of the gut and into the bloodstream. Enlargement of the nodes is a consequence of infection management in mammals.

 

Traditional route: antibiotics such as Flagyl (metronidizole), steroids, immunomodulators, etc.

 

Theoretical: proper diet, including raw food and no added carbohydrates.

 

Wacky but used successfully in humans: fecal bacteriotherapy, colloquially known as a "fecal transplant."

No ulceration was noted, but could they even tell that with an ultrasound? We know he had that huge Clostridium infection, so maybe that enlarged the lymph nodes.

 

Some people feel that raw food is contraindicated with IBD. I take it you disagree! I don't know what to think, except that he's doing great -- well, better anyway -- on raw venison! Of course, venison was a novel protein for him, and that may help in itself, I gather. The vet seems concerned about the lack of carbs. But he hasn't done well with carbs for a long time, so...

 

I can't wait to mention "fecal transplant" to my vet and watch her sink to the floor! Which reminds me, though, why would Spencer seem to do worse when given probiotics than when not given them? I've seen it happen twice, and I suppose it could be a coincidence rather than a correlation, but what say you?

 

ETA: What are some examples of immunomodulators?

Edited April 24, 2009 by greyhead

[ahicks51]

No ulceration was noted, but could they even tell that with an ultrasound? We know he had that huge Clostridium infection, so maybe that enlarged the lymph nodes.

 

No. The intestines are big; even if directly visualized with fiber optics, you can't cover the entirety of the terrain. With ultrasound, it probably wouldn't be visible.

 

Some people feel that raw food is contraindicated with IBD. I take it you disagree! I don't know what to think, except that he's doing great -- well, better anyway -- on raw venison! Of course, venison was a novel protein for him, and that may help in itself, I gather. The vet seems concerned about the lack of carbs. But he hasn't done well with carbs for a long time, so...

 

I use "raw" and "homecooked" interchangeably, and probably shouldn't since there are some very clear differences. If worried about the bacterial challenge, then home-cooked until he's better.

 

Absence of carbs is not a problem, except from a constipation standpoint. Low-sugar veggies (cauliflower, broccoli, etc.) are good for this.

 

I can't wait to mention "fecal transplant" to my vet and watch her sink to the floor! Which reminds me, though, why would Spencer seem to do worse when given probiotics than when not given them? I've seen it happen twice, and I suppose it could be a coincidence rather than a correlation, but what say you?

 

ETA: What are some examples of immunomodulators?

 

Fecal transplant: the whole paper is available free here:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1841363...Pubmed_RVDocSum

 

There are other papers as well:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1281120...Pubmed_RVDocSum

 

There are other papers as well.

 

As for which probiotics- that's an interesting question, and it happens with humans as well. I reacted very well the first time I took VSL#3, but so badly the second time I never took it again. I am leaving all bifidobacterial species out of my diet; the author of the diet I'm on never said why. About 6 months ago, I found a paper on bifidobacteria and pullulanase; turns out some bifidobacteria put out pullulanase. The bacteria I am combatting ALSO puts out pullulanase (the reason I avoid it) to "debranch" polymeric carbohydrates- the "branched" form of starch. So- that's how certain bugs can cause certain problems: molecular mimicry. Which probiotic did you use? The Purina one?

 

As for immunomodulators- azathioprine (Imuran, AZA, etc.), 6-mercaptopurine (6-MP). Steroids are immunosuppressants (the reason they are not given when there is active, underlying disease from bacteria or cancer), but are not called as such for purposes of medical treatment.

 

I seem to recall that Beau (Robin's dog) really started to turn around once he was put on AZA, although the prednisone was of some value as well. Plus the special diet. It wasn't just one thing.

 

ETA: the "transplant" is relatively straightforward in its crudest form: a water suspension from a healthy donor is delivered as an enema. Opinions differ as to efficacy, as some seem to think it needs to be delivered much further into the intestine, but- hey. Fast, cheap, easy. I mean, disgusting as all git-out, but it beats the heck out of clostridia.

Edited April 24, 2009 by ahicks51

[Batmom]

I use "raw" and "homecooked" interchangeably, and probably shouldn't since there are some very clear differences. If worried about the bacterial challenge, then home-cooked until he's better.

 

That is what I would do. Hedging your bets, as it were.

[tbhounds]

Here's how I would approach it---Flagyl, Budesonide and a low-fat novel protein diet. Crappy (literally) disease.

[Guest mandm]

I've had two IBD greyhounds. Neither case of IBD was confirmed by biopsy, but all the signs were there

 

Both were treated very differently, the first one got traditional vet-guided IBD treatment, steroids & prescription food, and the second was treated the "natural" way -- no meds and raw diet. Both cases of IBD responded well to treatment.

 

The first one -- we tried Budesonide first. Although much more expensive than Pred, it targets only the GI tract and causes fewer side effects. Unfortunately, the Budesonide didn't work and we had to switch to Pred, with all the nasty side effects. The IBD responded beautifully to the treatment. Unfortunately, after a few weeks, the Pred caused latent TBD lurking inside the dog's body to rear up it's ugly head and kill my poor, very young greyhound. So I will insert a warning here to anyone considering immunosupressives for their greyhound, to treat IBD or whatever, do a tick panel first! It's easy and comparatively inexpensive. Chances are the tick panel will be clear and you can proceed with treatment. Mary, I believe you have already run your tick panel. The warning was for others.

 

And then the second IBD greyhound. He had already been cleared of TBD, actually had TBD, and was treated. So I could have treated him with steroids. But I was a little gun shy. So I tried a very strict, very lean raw diet and it worked. No carbs at all because I already knew they caused problems for him. And very little fat. And raw. Both my greyhound and I prefered cooked and I was nervous feeding a compromised dog raw, but he digested it SO much better than cooked. I believe it is because raw fat is much easier to digest and it is fat that causes so much trouble for these dogs.

 

So, it is my experience that IBD is indeed treatable. And, in my experience, IBD responded well to both treatment approaches. The thing is, I think you have to figure out which diet approach you will take, because you have to do it 100%. Of course, you can try a diet and if doesn't work from the get-go, then bail. But before trying a new food, you have to fast him first to make sure the system is cleared of the previous food.

 

Sounds like your vet is pretty conventional, in which case he/she will guide you if you decide to take the conventional approach. If you decide to take the other approach, you'll have do more work figuring things out.

 

If Spencer were my dog, I'd keep him on a really strict novel protein diet at least for a few days until you meet with the vet again, just as a little experiment. If the venison is still novel, if he has gotten nothing other than venison since it's introduction, then keep him on that. If not, try to think up a different novel protein.

 

And it sounds as though Spencer is, while not robust, at least not in immediate danger. So that buys you a little time to ponder your options.

[greyhead]

...Both were treated very differently, the first one got traditional vet-guided IBD treatment, steroids & prescription food, and the second was treated the "natural" way -- no meds and raw diet. Both cases of IBD responded well to treatment.

 

...If Spencer were my dog, I'd keep him on a really strict novel protein diet at least for a few days until you meet with the vet again, just as a little experiment. If the venison is still novel, if he has gotten nothing other than venison since it's introduction, then keep him on that. If not, try to think up a different novel protein. ...

Thanks for all that wisdom, Wendy. That's such a shame about your first grey. And then a second time, but thanks to you a better outcome! You've really been through it.

 

I hope it's okay to use ellipsis to quote a couple particulars from your post. I'm leaving soon to buy more venison and wondering if it's okay to get him turkey necks. Sounds like it's not but I thought I'd check cuz they are so good for his teeth and for helping get his poop out. The ground venison doesn't appear to have much bone in it.

 

Secondly, you didn't use meds with the raw diet. Are they incompatible? Would using both be overkill? Or were meds just a possible threat, given your first grey, and proved unnecessary with the raw diet?

[Guest mandm]

Turkey necks -- no -- totally incompatible. Don't worry about his teeth. Brush 'em. Look for sources of venison bone. Mybe GTers in your area can help you with that. Or your local rawfeeding co-op. Bravo sells venison neckbone by the case, not bad, somewhere around $2.00-$2.50/lb if I'm remembering correctly, but I'm guessing you would have to find a rep and order it, so it's probably not immediately available. My state is crawling with deer and deer hunters, I'm not sure about your area. But you could post something to Freecycle -- do you have that there? or Craiglist, looking for freezer burnt venison for people cleaning out their freezers. If you know someone connected to highway patrol, you can try to get roadkill. Someone on my local rawfeeding list has an allergy dog and does the roadkill, never needs to look elsewhere.

 

So anything other than deer is a no-no. But deer includes meat, bone, and organ. But forget the organ for now, too rich.

 

Meds -- I did only what I considered absolutely necessary. No "let's just try it and see if it helps" supplements. The key to figuring out things is simplicity. Remove as many variables as possible. So, necessary meds, yes; unneccesary supplements, no.

 

ETA -- the 2nd greyhound actually did receive some meds. He had been on Tylan and I continued it after I put him raw. He responded immediately to the novel, raw diet and I weaned him off the Tylan after a few months. After he stabilized and gained back much needed weight, I started him on oral supplements, hypoallergenic multi vit/min and extra cobalamin & folate (vits B9 & B12).

Edited April 24, 2009 by mandm

[ahicks51]

One other note: a rapid switch to a non-kibble diet can be painful for the hound- and I'm sure with IBD it'd be worse. The intestines are used to handling softer stool that is bulked with a lot of fiber. A rapid switch that results in firm, small stool (made worse by a weakened gut) is going to be uncomfortable. As a result, I would recommend bulking with cauliflower, broccoli, and other non-sugary vegetables.

 

And that's the voice of personal experience here.

[Guest mandm]

a rapid switch to a non-kibble diet can be painful for the hound- and I'm sure with IBD it'd be worse. The intestines are used to handling softer stool that is bulked with a lot of fiber. A rapid switch that results in firm, small stool (made worse by a weakened gut) is going to be uncomfortable. As a result, I would recommend bulking with cauliflower, broccoli, and other non-sugary vegetables.

I am terrified to disagree with you, Ahicks51, because you are so incredibly smart. But Spencer has not been on kibble for months, if I am understanding correctly. So he doesn't need to be eased into a natural diet. The teeth, we would probably both agree, are not important right now. But he may appreciate some bulk -- for his comfort and to lighten Mary's backyard clean-up. I have found that bone works like vegetable, except it is much safer to feed if a true elimination diet is the goal, which it should be, for an IBD dog. It's a lot easier to get your hands on broccoli than deer bone, but I would do only deer bone. If it can't be found, then he can live without it. Vegetables may cause an ugly reaction. She knows that venison is safe.

[ahicks51]

a rapid switch to a non-kibble diet can be painful for the hound- and I'm sure with IBD it'd be worse. The intestines are used to handling softer stool that is bulked with a lot of fiber. A rapid switch that results in firm, small stool (made worse by a weakened gut) is going to be uncomfortable. As a result, I would recommend bulking with cauliflower, broccoli, and other non-sugary vegetables.

I am terrified to disagree with you, Ahicks51, because you are so incredibly smart. But Spencer has not been on kibble for months, if I am understanding correctly. So he doesn't need to be eased into a natural diet.

 

Oh, hey. I'm just saying in general.

[greyhead]

QUOTE(ahicks51 @ Apr 23 2009, 07:35 PM) 3967598[/snapback]As for which probiotics- that's an interesting question, and it happens with humans as well. I reacted very well the first time I took VSL#3, but so badly the second time I never took it again. I am leaving all bifidobacterial species out of my diet; the author of the diet I'm on never said why. About 6 months ago, I found a paper on bifidobacteria and pullulanase; turns out some bifidobacteria put out pullulanase. The bacteria I am combatting ALSO puts out pullulanase (the reason I avoid it) to "debranch" polymeric carbohydrates- the "branched" form of starch. So- that's how certain bugs can cause certain problems: molecular mimicry. Which probiotic did you use? The Purina one?

 

Back to this question, the probiotic we used is called PB8 by Nutrition Now, Inc. It has 6 Lactobacillus strains and 2 Bifodobacterium strains: L. acidophilus, plantarum, rhamosus, casei, paracasei, and salivarius; and B. bifidum and longum. How do I find out if Clostridium (he has two strains) pulls out pullulanase? And whatever else I need to know about this kind of thing?

 

You ARE really smart! And you're a treasure!

 

As are the other H&M mavens and the non-mavens that nonetheless are brave enough to read H&M stuff and offer help and support! Thanks to all of you on behalf of all of us.

Edited April 28, 2011 by greyhead

[greyhead]

Does anyone know what causes IBD? Would SIBO precede it or follow it usually? I'm guessing this might be a chicken-and-egg problem that could happen either way. But I'd love to know whatever y'all know.

 

It's a lot easier to get your hands on broccoli than deer bone, but I would do only deer bone. If it can't be found, then he can live without it. Vegetables may cause an ugly reaction. She knows that venison is safe.

Yup, you're right, Terrified Yet Brave One, no kibble for months!

 

Just got back from food-acquisition expedition. No, the ground venison does not have any bone included. A local pet store, Mud Bay (are they national or just regional here?), has deer antlers in plastic bags. The gal said the inside is soft. But the outside bony part seems like it would be really hard and dangerous to teeth! And it's the bone he needs rather than the marrow anyway, right?

 

Still going to check with Bravo just for future reference. And I'll put feelers out for local hunters and raw feeders.

 

 

[Batmom]

With Clostridium or similar, you're really best off cooking for him until he's better. If he's at all immune compromised -- and it sounds like he is -- you really want to keep his bacterial load at a minimum.

 

I've very seldom seen diarrhea when feeding dogs a 100% cooked-meat diet with no added bone (other than some eggshell or a calcium pill), and have seen no problems from feeding cooked fats. All meat makes a very low residue diet and generally produces a small quantity of not-too-hard, not-too-soft stool.

 

If you do want/need to add vegetables for fiber, I'd suggest cooking and pureeing. They go through the dog better and serve their intended purpose. What works best here when needed is 1-2 tablespoons pureed green peas per meal.

 

 

[Guest mandm]

Does anyone know what causes IBD? Would SIBO precede it or follow it usually? I'm guessing this might be a chicken-and-egg problem that could happen either way. But I'd love to know whatever y'all know.

 

[

Don't know what causes IBD, but I have heard that it is often related to whipworm infestation. I'm guessing any weakening of the gut, through parasite damage or improper diet, may cause it. Our greyhounds have generally had a lot of both, and I'm not talking about the track diet they get before we adopt them. I think they are used to a lot of meat in their diet and when we switch them over to high carb kibble, some of them have trouble.

 

SIBO often accompanies IBD. My vet says it is easy to test for SIBO and if a dog tests + for SIBO, then it is reasonable to suspect IBD. So having SIBO does not necessarily mean a dog has IBD, but rather points in that direction.

[ahicks51]

Back to this question, the probiotic we used is called PB8 by Nutrition Now, Inc. It has 6 Lactobacillus strains and 2 Bifodobacterium strains: L. acidophilus, plantarum, rhamosus, casei, paracasei, and salivarius; and B. bifidum and longum. How do I find out if Clostridium (he has both perfringens and difficile strains) pulls out pullulanase? And whatever else I need to know about this kind of thing?

 

The effects of clostridia are due to their toxins, rather than a reactive disorder such as that due to molecular mimicry, so there's no worries about pullulanase here. In fact, in the canine, it'd be purely hypothetical- it's still not well-accepted in human medicine, although there are precedents (rheumatic fever and Reiter's syndrome, aka reactive arthritis are both well-accepted examples of diseases caused by molecular mimicry). Clostridia produce toxins effective on muscle tissue as well as red blood cells.

 

Human nutrition is a mess; veterinary nutrition is a little better in that one can experiment on animals more readily than humans. But the "science" of probiotics makes nutrition look good in comparison. Many of these organisms are isolated in one species, and used in another; I seem to recall there's a few strains that are in yogurts that nobody really knows what animal they were originally pulled from. The implications may not be immediately obvious, but when comparing the gastric flora of cattle (obligate herbivores) to humans (omnivores leaning towards carnivory) and cats (obligate carnivores), it's pretty clear that maybe feeding the same critter to all three might not be a good thing.

 

If your problem were in a human, my advice would be to get away from all bifidobacterial species. It's not so clear-cut in the canine.

 

I don't know much about the veterinary supplements, but I see that Purina's "Fortiflora" has only one species (Enterococcus faecium)- an occasional pathogen in humans, but acknowledged as a probiotic in the canine:

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...74d3057817dc511

 

I know one vet locally who advocates its use in greyhounds with poorly consolidated stool. Never tried it on our hounds.

[Guest mandm]

Still going to check with Bravo just for future reference. And I'll put feelers out for local hunters and raw feeders.

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/bravoretailers.html

I'd call around to see if anyone is going to be putting in an order soon, or maybe you will get lucky and find someone with venison neckbones on hand. Bravo bones are not advertised on their website, but they are available, you just have to ask. Venison neckbones come in a 20 lb case which should retail $2-$3/lb, depending on the retailer.

 

Not sure how many hunters there are in your neighborhood, but I would check out local grocery store meat deals and then post to Craigslist offering to trade lb for lb, venison for their choice of . . . whatever sounds good and is on sale. Some hunters, down on their luck and eating out of their freezer, may be be really ready for a new taste. Or you could offer to buy it outright, although sale of venison is highly illegal in my state, not sure about elsewhere.

[ahicks51]

Does anyone know what causes IBD? Would SIBO precede it or follow it usually? I'm guessing this might be a chicken-and-egg problem that could happen either way. But I'd love to know whatever y'all know.

 

[

Don't know what causes IBD, but I have heard that it is often related to whipworm infestation. I'm guessing any weakening of the gut, through parasite damage or improper diet, may cause it. Our greyhounds have generally had a lot of both, and I'm not talking about the track diet they get before we adopt them. I think they are used to a lot of meat in their diet and when we switch them over to high carb kibble, some of them have trouble.

 

The irony is that parasites (helminths- usually Necator americanus, the common hookworm) is used to manage intestinal, autoimmune, and allergic diseases experimentally in humans. TSO (pig whipworms- they can't attach, so new eggs must be consumed every two weeks) are available OTC in some countries, in fact. They probably toy with the T1/T2 immunity thingamabob and put things back in order somehow. Some advocate this approach based on the near absence of autoimmune disorders in some developing countries.

 

As for its origins: some theories suggest that (in humans) ulceration as a result of NSAIDs (which cause tiny ulcers in the gut) or possibly too much acid over time (from overconsumption of carbohydrates) results in a mixing of the immune system with intestinal bacteria. Eventually, the body becomes sensitized to some of the bacterial proteins; if the epitope on these proteins- the precise amino acid chain that the immune system reacts to- closely resembles the body's own proteins, the resulting immune reaction may result in autoimmune attack.

 

We know this happens with rheumatic fever- Strep. pyogenes proteins apparently resemble proteins of the heart, brain, joints, and skin, resulting in autoimmune attack once the infection is gone. We also know it happens in Reiter's syndrome (reactive arthritis), in which a number of organisms (some of which are pretty common STDs) result in an autoimmune reaction against the large joints, the eyes, and the urethra (resulting in the charming diagnostic triad "can't see, can't pee, can't bend the knee"). In both these diseases, the similarities between the bacterial proteins just happen to jibe with the body's own proteins, which are then assaulted by the immune system because of the bad coincidence.

 

With some types of intestinal disorders, ankylosing spondylitis, and rheumatoid arthritis (and probably multiple sclerosis, maybe some types of diabetes, possibly cystic fibrosis, and maybe a slew of other diseases), it's the same deal- we just haven't pinned down the organism for some of these. With Crohn's and ulcerative colitis, as well as ankylosing spondylitis, it's probably the common organism Klebsiella pneumoniae. With Rheumatoid arthritis, it's probably the common UTI organism Proteus mirabilis. A number of organisms have been proposed for MS:

 

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/reprint/44/6/2099

 

With CD, UC, and AS, the proffered solution is straightforward: stop eating amylopectin starch, which is what causes Kp to generate the irritating protein. As starch is found exclusively in vegetable matter, an all-carnivore diet is one way to get it done. In an animal that clearly tolerates a pure carnivore diet (cats, dogs), this is well-tolerated. Humans have tolerated pure carnivore diets in limited experiments for a year without supplementation- not even vitamin C. That a number of dogs in early stages of IBD (chronic, unresolved D, etc.) seem to turn around quickly and without apparent drawbacks on diets somewhere between "heavy" and "absolute" in terms of animal protein is a good sign that there may be a similar mechanism at work. It certainly doesn't have to be klebsiella; migrating the flora away from bugs that are happy on vegetable matter may be all it takes.

[RobinM]

Any questions... feel free to contact me.

 

Beau started at 40mg of pred. Raised 2-3 weeks later to 50mg and 50 mg of imuran.

 

Started doing well, gaining weight etc.

 

Back down to 40, then 30, now 20 mg of pred and still at 50 imuran.

 

the only food he eats is z/d ultra dry and or wet. treats are the hills hypoallergenic cookies.

 

he also gets poached tilapia and dried tilapia jerky that we make. That is it. nothing else.

 

If he is on the meds and you are diligent, it is managable.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2009 by RobinM