Amputation Of A Part Of The Body (dog)

[Guest HeatherDemps]

I think making a decision like this based solely on statistics is impossible. Our hearts and emotions can't be cut out of the equation. Each person knows his or her dog best. My own vet told me she would not amputate on a 11.5 year old dog if it were her dog. My parents who always took care of Dempsey during my vacations, etc questioned my decision and didn't think he had the "right" personality to handle being a tripod. An oncologist told me "Age is not a disease". I also knew that the average life expectancy after amputation and chemo was 10-12 months. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

 

Ultimately, my decision was made based on what I thought was in the best interest of Dempsey and that in my heart, I knew I could not accept making the decision to keep him comfortable for as long as possible, then put to sleep. I knew that dog better than anyone. Just like when I came home one day and he couldn't stand up on his own and then got to where he couldn't move his back legs. I knew in my heart that it was time to let him go and this decision was not made at all based on statistics. From the time we got the cancer diagnosis, I promised my boy I would always do what was best for him, not for me, and I kept that promise to the end. You simply cannot rule out your heart when trying to make choices like this- it's like using statistics to decide who to fall in love with- doesn't work.

 

 

If it's statistics you are looking for then you are wasting your time, there is a quote "There are lies, damn lies and statistics".....statistics bear little relevance to what will happen in our everyday real lives...and that is a FACT

 

I know statistics lie But I think that I can manage to "read" the statistics well enough to see wich way it leans to. And a statistic gives me somewere to start from. To really see were probable problems will come up, and search for more information around each and one of the point.

 

[Guest savvyprchick]

I've been watching this thread and I think it's come to a point of

 

Seems like the OP is TRYING to rile people up.

[Guest Elcyion]

Me and the quotes are not best friends yet...

What do you wan´t me to aswer? Have you read the answers I´ve given other users after you? If you havn´t, reda and think. If you have, read again and think a little bit more.

I have thought an awful lot over the course of this past 12 months.

 

So, let me explain what I wanted you to reply to.

 

Earlier in this thread you said:-

 

I´m going to ask them to ask them selves the nescesery question, that everyone should ask them self:

 

Do I think my dog can cope with this, and do I think my dog wuold be happy with three legs instead of four?

 

After that, my "job" is done. It´s up to the veterinary and the owners.

 

And I replied with the following:-

 

What makes you think that every single one of us who has been faced with the situation has NOT asked outselves those questions? Why do you think we need you to tell us what questions we should ask ourselves?

 

Therefore, those are the questions that I would like you to answer.

 

I hope this will be readable. I´ve got more or less migraine, and none of my pills works So please, keep that in mind when you read my answer...

What I ment by that answer you have quoted, was to make an "example" of what I would do if someone come to me and said that the were thinking of amputating their dog.

I would not say it was wrong, I wouldn´t tell them to do what I feel lika doing. That´s because I am me, and they are they. I would do what I think is best for my dog, and they would do the same. That doesn´t mean that we think the same thing (if we were thinking about the same dog), and it IS a different between dog and dog. Both from a genetic wiew, and the dogs personality.

I never ment to sugest that you didn´t thought of that question. ONLY as an explaining of my own reaction. I hope you understand how I mean?

 

I think making a decision like this based solely on statistics is impossible. Our hearts and emotions can't be cut out of the equation. Each person knows his or her dog best. My own vet told me she would not amputate on a 11.5 year old dog if it were her dog. My parents who always took care of Dempsey during my vacations, etc questioned my decision and didn't think he had the "right" personality to handle being a tripod. An oncologist told me "Age is not a disease". I also knew that the average life expectancy after amputation and chemo was 10-12 months. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

 

Ultimately, my decision was made based on what I thought was in the best interest of Dempsey and that in my heart, I knew I could not accept making the decision to keep him comfortable for as long as possible, then put to sleep. I knew that dog better than anyone. Just like when I came home one day and he couldn't stand up on his own and then got to where he couldn't move his back legs. I knew in my heart that it was time to let him go and this decision was not made at all based on statistics. From the time we got the cancer diagnosis, I promised my boy I would always do what was best for him, not for me, and I kept that promise to the end. You simply cannot rule out your heart when trying to make choices like this- it's like using statistics to decide who to fall in love with- doesn't work.

 

 

If it's statistics you are looking for then you are wasting your time, there is a quote "There are lies, damn lies and statistics".....statistics bear little relevance to what will happen in our everyday real lives...and that is a FACT

 

I know statistics lie But I think that I can manage to "read" the statistics well enough to see wich way it leans to. And a statistic gives me somewere to start from. To really see were probable problems will come up, and search for more information around each and one of the point.

 

The statistics for me, is a way of knowing what I´m thinking about. They (for me) balance my feelings, and make me see both sides. Not only my feelings. I know their are feelings invalved to, but I tried to make this thread more about the medical than the emotions, and I think you know why...

Your emotions is none of my buisness... I never wanted anyone to feel that I thought so.

[Burpdog]

but I tried to make this thread more about the medical than the emotions, and I think you know why...

 

No, I don't know why.

 

In life and death selections, I don't see how you can choose to move on medical knowledge/history or emotions alone. To me, it must be a combination of medical knowledge and emotions, since each dog is different both in character/temperment and medical issues.

 

One thing I have learned in my time with greyhounds, is that their desire to live is unequalled! It is that desire for life that does make them good candidates for amputation and brings them thru many trials, not just amputation. (Darcy: you are a hound, so that counts )

 

I am not sure why you are fixed on life after amputation? (maybe I need to go reread your posts) There is no guarantee that any dog will live "X" amount of years. The last I spoke with Dr. Couto, the average was still 14 months. Some go more, some less. What is important, to me, is the quality of the time spent after any major operation or illness. If they are happy, that is all that counts.

 

Winslow's owner, Glynis, asked me to post in this thread, the following:

 

 

"Winslow, 21 months post amp. Pain free and happy".

 

Our friend Queen Winnie lived another 3 years.. pain free and HAPPY.

Jaxen in Canada is 4 years post amp. Pain free and HAPPY.

Darcy, 1 year, Pain free and HAPPY.

 

And all the others that I've missed or don't know about.... Time spent... PAIN FREE AND HAPPY

[Guest Elcyion]

but I tried to make this thread more about the medical than the emotions, and I think you know why...

 

No, I don't know why.

 

In life and death selections, I don't see how you can choose to move on medical knowledge/history or emotions alone. To me, it must be a combination of medical knowledge and emotions, since each dog is different both in character/temperment and medical issues.

 

One thing I have learned in my time with greyhounds, is that their desire to live is unequalled! It is that desire for life that does make them good candidates for amputation and brings them thru many trials, not just amputation. (Darcy: you are a hound, so that counts )

 

I am not sure why you are fixed on life after amputation? (maybe I need to go reread your posts) There is no guarantee that any dog will live "X" amount of years. The last I spoke with Dr. Couto, the average was still 14 months. Some go more, some less. What is important, to me, is the quality of the time spent after any major operation or illness. If they are happy, that is all that counts.

 

Winslow's owner, Glynis, asked me to post in this thread, the following:

 

 

"Winslow, 21 months post amp. Pain free and happy".

 

Our friend Queen Winnie lived another 3 years.. pain free and HAPPY.

Jaxen in Canada is 4 years post amp. Pain free and HAPPY.

Darcy, 1 year, Pain free and HAPPY.

 

And all the others that I've missed or don't know about.... Time spent... PAIN FREE AND HAPPY

 

I can make a clear different between feelings and medical facts. In my mind that´s two different things. It´s almost lika black and white. I think that has to do with my autism-problems, but I´m not sure.

For me, the importent is that the dog i pain free and happy.

For an example:

 

My dog gets cancer in her leg, and I amputee the leg. The healing goes well, and she is pain free and happy on her three legs. After 1 year, the cancer comes back, and I have to put her down. That´s fine with me. Cancer isn´t any I can control, and she had no pain after the amputee.

 

An oter example:

 

My dog gets cancer, and I amputee the leg. The healing goes well, and she is pain free and happy on her three legs. After 1 year, she get (taken out of the blue) a hip-problem that causes her pain. The hip-problem is directly linked to the amputation. That´s (in my often very different world) is a hole oter story.

 

Do you see the different in my mind? Somewere (after all the answers in this thread) I´m beginning to understand that this two different examples goes "together" in other peoples minds. But for me, it´s like comparing appels with pears.

 

People can do what ever they want. They think they do the best they can do for their dogs, and I´m glad that (some, not everyone) dogs get the chans of having these owners.

 

I know my way of thinking isn´t always right. I know that other people think in other ways. That´s what make this world so intressting. When I finally gets it...

[Bevd]

What really pisses me off is there is not one single "oh how lovely" in response to the happy, pain free lives these dogs have led or are currently leading. Not a single smile for them.

 

And - arrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhh - no. Must do thisssss nowwwwwww before I do thisssssssss

[Guest HeatherDemps]

I can make a clear different between feelings and medical facts. In my mind that´s two different things. It´s almost lika black and white. I think that has to do with my autism-problems, but I´m not sure.

For me, the importent is that the dog i pain free and happy.

For an example:

 

My dog gets cancer in her leg, and I amputee the leg. The healing goes well, and she is pain free and happy on her three legs. After 1 year, the cancer comes back, and I have to put her down. That´s fine with me. Cancer isn´t any I can control, and she had no pain after the amputee.

 

An oter example:

 

My dog gets cancer, and I amputee the leg. The healing goes well, and she is pain free and happy on her three legs. After 1 year, she get (taken out of the blue) a hip-problem that causes her pain. The hip-problem is directly linked to the amputation. That´s (in my often very different world) is a hole oter story.

 

Do you see the different in my mind? Somewere (after all the answers in this thread) I´m beginning to understand that this two different examples goes "together" in other peoples minds. But for me, it´s like comparing appels with pears.

 

People can do what ever they want. They think they do the best they can do for their dogs, and I´m glad that (some, not everyone) dogs get the chans of having these owners.

 

I know my way of thinking isn´t always right. I know that other people think in other ways. That´s what make this world so intressting. When I finally gets it...

 

But you can't predict the future. There is no way of knowing in advance which dog will develop complications related to an amputation. It's a major surgery and there are risks certainly involved but all you can do is weigh out the risks with the potential gains/positives and make the best decision possible at the time with the information you have. I guess I don't understand the difference between the two scenarios you have given- in the end the dog ends up having to be put to sleep for things that you cannot control (cancer coming back versus hip problems). What if the dog has great quality of life until the hip problem comes up? Wasn't that time worth it? Ultimately, it's your dog and you get to make the decisions yourself. I guess I don't understand why spend all this time thinking about a situation that may or may not happen- why not just enjoy the time you have with your dog? That's one thing cancer did teach me- appreciate each moment you get with your pups because you never know when you might have to say goodbye.

 

[Guest PhillyPups]

I just have to add, look at this face:

 

 

This is Jerry Murray, known to many, loved by all he knows, many years post amp, and the amp was not due to cancer, but due to injury. Now look at the next picture and tell me that boy is NOT enjoying the max out of his life.

 

 

If the dog is "one year post amp" and a pain comes up, well that can happen no matter what, I do not understand the reasoning that it would be wrong , cause there were 364 days (prior to that one) that were pain free and to quote my neice, Sarah, before she lost the battle to leukemia, "Everyday is a Gift"

 

Amputation is a very personal choice. One thing we are given in our life is a personal choices. In my opinion, for someone to judge that choice is an attempt of the one that does the judging to play GoD.

Edited October 14, 2008 by PhillyPups

[Guest Elcyion]

HeatherDemps: I guess I never can explain why I think the way I do, or why I´m wondering over things that yet haven´t come (or maybe never will). I think it´s about feeling prepered if the day ever should come.

 

PhillyPups: He is clearly enjoying his life And (in my opinion) I´ve never said that amputees never could enjoy their "new" life with only three legs.

Part of my problem (more about that in prior posts) is the problem to take one day at the time. That´s something I have to struggle with every day. To see the little things in life.

[Guest PhillyPups]

PhillyPups: He is clearly enjoying his life And (in my opinion) I´ve never said that amputees never could enjoy their "new" life with only three legs.

Part of my problem (more about that in prior posts) is the problem to take one day at the time. That´s something I have to struggle with every day. To see the little things in life.

 

Well then, as I was told, put your head where your butt is, keep it in the moment. A lesson I learned from my beloved Runner who had a massive heart attack at a M&G while leaning against me (he was the picture of health) ~ before his 8th birthday, and yet The Divine Ms. SugarBear was with me till she was diagnosed with osteo at 14.5 years. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but if I stand with one foot in tommorow, and one foot in yesterday, then I am pee'ing on today. Through the loss of loved ones, I have learned to keep it in the moment.

 

Someday in the not too distant future, I will probably have to make a major decision with my beloved 13 year old Stepper. Who knows, it may be due to osteo, it may not, it may be a stroke like The Queen had, but I am not going to make any decisions until the time comes. Today, I will enjoy going home to his goofy smile and tongue hanging out, and after we play a bit, getting him to rest his shakey butt (due to age) and sit and stroke his ears and tell him how much I love him, make sure he knows he is loved, and feel the love he has for his Mama.

 

Another old saying, "Don't worry, don't hurry, better to be late at the golden gate than to arrive at he77 on time"

 

 

 

[Guest HeatherDemps]

HeatherDemps: I guess I never can explain why I think the way I do, or why I´m wondering over things that yet haven´t come (or maybe never will). I think it´s about feeling prepered if the day ever should come.

 

But what if it never does? That's a lot of energy thinking and preparing for things that don't ever come to be. And speaking from experience as a worrier, it doesn't matter how much thinking and preparing you do.... After Dempsey was diagnosed with cancer, I knew that we were on borrowed time and that every day left was a gift, to appreciate each moment. And I knew that the time would come when I would have to say goodbye. It doesn't matter that you KNOW this is coming, there just isn't a way to be prepared for these big decisions.

 

My recommendation to you is to focus on the present as much as possible. When we're stuck in the past or worrying about the future, we lose NOW.

 

[Guest EmbersDad]

ember was just diagnosed today with osteo, and i have decided on amputation & chemo. we are hoping to get 9mo to a year more with her.

[Guest greyhoundluv]

ember was just diagnosed today with osteo, and i have decided on amputation & chemo. we are hoping to get 9mo to a year more with her.

 

 

Prayers and hugs for you and Ember.

[Guest EmilyAnne]

but I tried to make this thread more about the medical than the emotions, and I think you know why...

 

No, I don't know why.

 

In life and death selections, I don't see how you can choose to move on medical knowledge/history or emotions alone. To me, it must be a combination of medical knowledge and emotions, since each dog is different both in character/temperment and medical issues.

 

One thing I have learned in my time with greyhounds, is that their desire to live is unequalled! It is that desire for life that does make them good candidates for amputation and brings them thru many trials, not just amputation. (Darcy: you are a hound, so that counts )

 

I am not sure why you are fixed on life after amputation? (maybe I need to go reread your posts) There is no guarantee that any dog will live "X" amount of years. The last I spoke with Dr. Couto, the average was still 14 months. Some go more, some less. What is important, to me, is the quality of the time spent after any major operation or illness. If they are happy, that is all that counts.

 

Winslow's owner, Glynis, asked me to post in this thread, the following:

 

 

"Winslow, 21 months post amp. Pain free and happy".

 

Our friend Queen Winnie lived another 3 years.. pain free and HAPPY.

Jaxen in Canada is 4 years post amp. Pain free and HAPPY.

Darcy, 1 year, Pain free and HAPPY.

 

And all the others that I've missed or don't know about.... Time spent... PAIN FREE AND HAPPY

YEEHAW Darcy, Winslow, Queen Winnie and Jaxen!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for sharing this!!!!

 

...

 

For an example:

 

My dog gets cancer in her leg, and I amputee the leg. The healing goes well, and she is pain free and happy on her three legs. After 1 year, the cancer comes back, and I have to put her down. That´s fine with me. Cancer isn´t any I can control, and she had no pain after the amputee.

 

An other example:

 

My dog gets cancer, and I amputee the leg. The healing goes well, and she is pain free and happy on her three legs. After 1 year, she get (taken out of the blue) a hip-problem that causes her pain. The hip-problem is directly linked to the amputation. That´s (in my often very different world) is a hole oter story.

 

Do you see the different in my mind? Somewere (after all the answers in this thread) I´m beginning to understand that this two different examples goes "together" in other peoples minds. But for me, it´s like comparing appels with pears.

 

....

I don't understand the concept of the part in bolding????? Why does it make it a whole different scenario wether or not the cancer came back or if hips problems arised? It doesn't change that the dog was able to enjoy another year of life.

 

 

PhillyPups: He is clearly enjoying his life And (in my opinion) I´ve never said that amputees never could enjoy their "new" life with only three legs.

Part of my problem (more about that in prior posts) is the problem to take one day at the time. That´s something I have to struggle with every day. To see the little things in life.

 

Well then, as I was told, put your head where your butt is, keep it in the moment. A lesson I learned from my beloved Runner who had a massive heart attack at a M&G while leaning against me (he was the picture of health) ~ before his 8th birthday, and yet The Divine Ms. SugarBear was with me till she was diagnosed with osteo at 14.5 years. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but if I stand with one foot in tommorow, and one foot in yesterday, then I am pee'ing on today. Through the loss of loved ones, I have learned to keep it in the moment.

 

Someday in the not too distant future, I will probably have to make a major decision with my beloved 13 year old Stepper. Who knows, it may be due to osteo, it may not, it may be a stroke like The Queen had, but I am not going to make any decisions until the time comes. Today, I will enjoy going home to his goofy smile and tongue hanging out, and after we play a bit, getting him to rest his shakey butt (due to age) and sit and stroke his ears and tell him how much I love him, make sure he knows he is loved, and feel the love he has for his Mama.

 

Another old saying, "Don't worry, don't hurry, better to be late at the golden gate than to arrive at he77 on time"

Phillypups, wow very well said!!!!

 

 

ember was just diagnosed today with osteo, and i have decided on amputation & chemo. we are hoping to get 9mo to a year more with her.

 

Ember will be in my prayers. And I know all of GT will be rallying on for you and Ember through this, and will be here to support you through every step of the way.

 

 

~*~*~*~*~

 

By the way, as far as age playing a factor, yes, that is one of many factors to consider, and how well the dog is aging and etc. My Riley is 13, and thinks he's still a pup. If he were diagnosed with Osteo today, despite the fact that he is 13, I would go ahead and the the amputation and chemo. Henry however, at age 9, I really don't know. He's got lots of spirit but his currently poorly controlled epilepsy would have to be considered and I honestly have no idea what I would decide. *shudders to even think if that should ever happen*

 

There's just SO many things to consider in making the decision, and statistics do not cover a lot of this.

 

[PatricksMom]

ember was just diagnosed today with osteo, and i have decided on amputation & chemo. we are hoping to get 9mo to a year more with her.

 

I'm sorry about the cancer--what a horrid disease--but I wish you and ember the best.

 

The obsession with what if the dog developes joint problems seems odd. Many, many of our dogs will develope arthritis even if they don't have an amputation done. Joint pain is joint pain, I really doubt the dog cares or understands the cause. And it is treatable, with an excellent quality of life.

[Guest greyhoundluv]

I've been watching this thread and I think it's come to a point of

 

Seems like the OP is TRYING to rile people up.

 

 

I think you are right.