Back Leg Problems (ls?)

[Guest siamanti]

Hello,

 

my 7 1/2 year old greyhound has been on Metacam managing his arthritis. Over the last week he has started dragging one of his hind legs and falling over when peeing. I took him to the vet and the vet prescribed him a steroid medication. On advice of a friend from this forum (scullysmum), I sent my vet an e-mail about Lumbosacal Stenosis by Dr. Stack and asked if this treatment would be available for my boy. He rang me back an hour ago saying that this treatment could do more harm than good, and no vet in the UK would prescribe this treatment. He seemed to be extremely surprised by this article. Having read about many other board members experiences with Depro Metrol injections, I wonder whether it is just the pig-headedness of UK vets from admitting that our American Cousins know more than they do. I wonder if anyone in the UK has had any experiences with this treatment. I am starting my boy on the Steroid Treatment tonight and I am very worried about the side effects. I am not ready to give up on a seven year old dog, in particular as he wants to run and be jolly and just doesn't seem to understand why his legs won't help him.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

Siamanti

 

 

 

PS: I am truly sorry about only posting when I have trouble with my doggies. The last time I posted was two years ago when I lost my beloved Karlsson to Cushings Disease.

[galgrey]

I'm sorry to hear about your boy and I hope you find something that's helpful for him. Dr. Stack's protocol has brought return to function to many dogs I know and then others didn't seem to respond. I've not personally heard of any being harmed by the procedure -- just that some didn't show improvement. Also, it's not just UK vets that are leary about this. My own vet had the same reaction as yours when I showed him Dr. Stack's article a few years ago and he's not alone from the feedback I've gotten from friends and on this forum.

 

I'm sure others will chime in re: their experiences.

 

Oh, I know chiropractic adjustment has been very helpful to some dogs as well if that's something you'd like to pursue or discuss with your vet. A friend of mine used a combination of chiropractic and the Depo injections. It wasn't a cure, of course, but she saw significant improvement and comfort for him.

 

Good luck. It's so hard to see hurting and not know what to do.

 

 

Hello,

 

my 7 1/2 year old greyhound has been on Metacam managing his arthritis. Over the last week he has started dragging one of his hind legs and falling over when peeing. I took him to the vet and the vet prescribed him a steroid medication. On advice of a friend from this forum (scullysmum), I sent my vet an e-mail about Lumbosacal Stenosis by Dr. Stack and asked if this treatment would be available for my boy. He rang me back an hour ago saying that this treatment could do more harm than good, and no vet in the UK would prescribe this treatment. He seemed to be extremely surprised by this article. Having read about many other board members experiences with Depro Metrol injections, I wonder whether it is just the pig-headedness of UK vets from admitting that our American Cousins know more than they do. I wonder if anyone in the UK has had any experiences with this treatment. I am starting my boy on the Steroid Treatment tonight and I am very worried about the side effects. I am not ready to give up on a seven year old dog, in particular as he wants to run and be jolly and just doesn't seem to understand why his legs won't help him.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

Siamanti

 

 

 

 

 

PS: I am truly sorry about only posting when I have trouble with my doggies. The last time I posted was two years ago when I lost my beloved Karlsson to Cushings Disease.

 

[Burpdog]

Will your vet refer you for acupuncture and/or chiropractic?

 

None of my vets will do that shot either.....

[Guest Greyhoundbaby]

When Tapsy was diagnosed with Wobblers Disease, I presented the LS documentation to the vet also. He was confident that his original diagnosis was correct and did not want to risk making things worse by applying a treatment that wasn't meant for the diagnosis. He did strongly suggest accupuncture (but, unfortunately, Tapsy turned for the worse before we could try...)

 

Hugs to your hound - hopefully you still have lots of years left for loving!

[Guest KennelMom]

We had great success with it. Gave our boy a renewed lease on life. Our vet wasn't familiar with the procedure but, after consulting with the other docs in the practice, decided it was worth trying if we wanted to try it...the worst it would do is just not make a difference.

[Guest siamanti]

Thanks very much for all your kind replies. I have spoken to a couple of vets whose children I teach. They seem to concur with my vet, that British Vets are just not open minded enough. Jupp wants to go out as normal and I still walk him which he seems to enjoy. He can walk ok, it is just that when he pees, he is stugglin to cope with his weight. I will start him on the steroids tonight and we will return to vet on Thursday. I will take (Scullysmum) along for advice as she is far more informed and likely to take less nonsense from the vet than I would be. From the responses so far it seems unlikely that I will find an open minded vet in this country to try the Dr. Stack treatment. I just hope there will be some improvement.

 

thanks again,

 

Siamanti

[Guest Spiff]

We've had two vets that Spiff saw have a VERY heated discussion about the shots!

 

Spiff got his first DM shot a year and a half ago. It dramatically improved his mobility. He was having serious trouble with knuckling-over and dragging one of his rear feet. Then, when it was time to get another shot, he saw a different vet, because he was staying with the ILs at the time. That vet didn't want to give him the shot, had a heated argument with our regular vet on the phone, and then prescribed Rimadyl/Carprofen instead. He has had this treatment plus Traumeel tablets for a year now. He must have been in some pain that we weren't aware of because the tablets really helped him a lot and he looked like he felt a lot better. Now we've reached a point where his legs are sinking again and he is having more problems with fecal incontinence. We are going to reevaluate whether we want him to have another shot to see if it helps. Spiff is 13.5 years old.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that different vets have different opinions about this. And it is also not a sure thing that any one treatment will work for any one dog. If you really want to try the shots, then you might consider asking another vet. It seems to be that 7.5 is pretty young, so you want to make sure that you are using a treatment that will not have adverse effects on other aspects of his health. The reason I was attracted to DM injections as a first treatment was because, while they are still steroid, they are localized at the LS site and are not given systemically. Some vets would argue that this doesn't make a difference because they will be absorbed by the body and circulated throughout anyway.

 

Good luck!! And keep us posted on how your boy is doing!

[Guest siamanti]

Once again, thank you very much. I keep watching this thread to see if anyone from the UK has been given the treatment. Jupp had his first Steroid dose tonight and had a walk with me this afternoon. He keeps insisting on walking up the stairs by himself and manages quite well. I have tried lifting him up and down but he does not like it and he is heavy boy (35kg). Getting up does not seem to be aproblem for him yet, nor (touch wood) has any incontinence occured. Considering he was running around the house like a mad dog only a fortnight ago it is still heartbreaking. He is such a bouncy lad and I always feared that his mad running and jumping would have some undesired consequences for him one day.

 

Well, I just hope we can get this sorted, or at least it does not get any worse soon, I truly do!

 

Siamanti

[Guest KennelMom]

Once again, thank you very much. I keep watching this thread to see if anyone from the UK has been given the treatment. Jupp had his first Steroid dose tonight and had a walk with me this afternoon. He keeps insisting on walking up the stairs by himself and manages quite well. I have tried lifting him up and down but he does not like it and he is heavy boy (35kg). Getting up does not seem to be aproblem for him yet, nor (touch wood) has any incontinence occured. Considering he was running around the house like a mad dog only a fortnight ago it is still heartbreaking. He is such a bouncy lad and I always feared that his mad running and jumping would have some undesired consequences for him one day.

 

Well, I just hope we can get this sorted, or at least it does not get any worse soon, I truly do!

 

Siamanti

 

I think LSS is usually an old dog condition...I admit I had to look up what a fortnight was but if this came on suddenly in a normally very active dog, I would look into an acute injury vs chronic condition, if your vet hasn't already investigated that.

[Guest siamanti]

Hi,

 

well he has been stiff in his hip and hind legs ever since I got him about two years ago and taken glucosamine and metacam for it. The dragging of the right hind leg and the falling over when trying to pee normally however has only really got worse during the last two weeks. The vet has only done some reaction tests of the hind legs and prescribed a dose of steroids for the next three days. I will be going back on Thursday. I am really hoping that he will improve by then! I have to say though the more I read on the forums here, the more I have to say we seem to be lightyears behind the States when it comes to Vets. In Britain all they seem to do is give a course of Antibiotics and hope for the best. There does not seem to be any High Tech Diagnosing going on and if it does the cost involved are outrageous. Perhaps I am just a bit sad at the moment and not quite fair to the Vets here. We will see and I certainly hope he gets better.

 

Regards

 

Siamanti

[Guest siamanti]

 

Hello again,

 

well Jupp has had his first day and a half on the Steroid Tablets and so far there has been no change. The good thing is that there have not been any side effects. Mel (scullysmum) and I went for a walk with all three dogs this afternoon. Jupp wants to go on his walk and the strange thing is the faster he walks the more normal his walk is. It is when he is peeing and walking slowly that his drunken "wobbly walk" appears. He has toppled over a couple of times to day trying to do his mad routine. He just does not seem to comprehend why he cant. The good thing is, he does not seem to be in obvious pain. I am taking Mel with me on Thursday to see the Vet. I am determined that Jupp should be X-rayed, or getting some more diagnositc tests done. Perhaps, I am being impatient and you could give me some advice as to how quickly one should see an improvement being on steroid tablets.

 

I am just really worried about my boy and I know his older "sister" Siamanti (15 year old Lurcher) would like to see him better as well. She can't understant why Jupp is getting all the fuss when he has been driving her mad for the last two years.

 

Siamanti

 

[Batmom]

I would keep looking for a vet -- perhaps one who has done Adequan injections -- who can look at Dr. Stack's article with reasonable eyes. I just can't imagine a vet who graduated from an accredited program not being willing to give the shots a try for a debilitated dog. There is very little risk of any type of side effect when the drug is given in this manner; the same cannot be said for oral meds.

 

Hugs and luck.

[Guest siamanti]

Update on my boy (20 February 2008) a.m

 

Last night Jupp started deterioating further and becoming more wobbly so I took him to the Vet accompanied by my good friend Mel (Scullysmum).

After having asked about LS and the steroid injection treatment a couple of days ago which he laughed off "as no one in this coutnry would give this", I knew the appointment was going to be awkward and that's exactly what happened. Mel and I literally had to drag out any information from the Vet who was defensive the whole way through the appointment. Anyway, the Vet has taken Jupp in for an X-ray to find some more answers. He has not given us any clear indication what this could be other than "septic arthritis?". Anyway he says he will ring me later on to inform me about the results of the X-ray. My head is all over the place as I find all this very depressing. Not only is my poor boy feeling unwell, I also find the way our Vet has responded to my queries thoroughly disappointing. One of the first questions he asked was whether I was insured because if we had to go for an MRI scan, I would start looking at 1000 pounds just for the scan and even if that was conclusive there could be bills of thousands of dollars without guarantee of improvement. Maybe I am naive but I thought the dogs welfare was primarily more important to my vet than discussing pound signs. He was also quite dismissive about the long term prospects of MRI diagnosis. Perhaps he is just trying to be honest with me but I wasn't happy and had to take a deep breath before saying something I might regret.

 

Well, I have moaned enough-just so dissappointed by the attitude of a man I have trusted for the last seven years.

I hoping to find some answers later on and I am trying to stay positive.

 

Siamanti

[Hawthorn]

I'm so sorry to hear about the problems you are having with Jupp. I know how worried you must be. If you don't feel confident about what your vet is saying, maybe you could ask either for a referral to a specialist or for a second opinion from a specialist greyhound vet? I'm always asking people if they know of any good greyhound vets, just in case one day I might need a second opinion from someone who knows more about greyhounds than my own vet does. I'm not sure whereabouts you are but I have compiled a short list of recommended vets in Hertfordshire, Essex and Middlesex if this would be of any use. From what I understand, it's quite possible that you might end up paying a lot of money for expensive tests that may or may not bring you any nearer to a diagnosis and vets are probably used to dealing with people who can't afford or who just don't want to spend that sort of money. You just need to make sure that your vet knows you're willing to do whatever it takes to get Jupp better.

 

Will be thinking of you today as you await the results of the x-ray and checking back for updates.

 

Good luck

[Guest siamanti]

Thank you very much for your kind words. I am in East Sussex but I would be interested in hearing about any greyhound specialists.

 

Siamanti

[Batmom]

Sending lots of hugs and prayers for your boy.

[Hawthorn]

I have sent you an email.

[silverfish]

Will your vet refer you for acupuncture and/or chiropractic?

 

None of my vets will do that shot either.....

 

I think there is resistance to the shots here in the UK. I asked about them for my old Jim when he was suffering badly with arthritis, and my vet said no. We managed him quite well with NSAIDs, but it was arthritis not LS.

 

One of the reasons a vet may refuse is that it is a delicate procedure and if they aren't experienced with it, they may lack the confidence to try. All kinds of things can theoretically go wrong when you stick needles and inject fluids into the space between the vertebrae, and they may not want to risk it.

 

As to acupuncture and chiropractic, the law here says that no-one but a qualified vet may undertake 'invasive procedures' on an animal, and that included acupuncture, so you will have to find a qualified vet who has learned to do it. We have one reasonably near to us and it did help Jim, but I had to do all the legwork because again, my own vet wasn't clued up. I had to find the practice, ring them and ask them, and then get back to my own vet and ask him for a referral, which he did happily give.

 

I have never heard of a chiropractic vet in the UK. There may be some, but again, I think they're resistant.

 

 

Once again, thank you very much. I keep watching this thread to see if anyone from the UK has been given the treatment. Jupp had his first Steroid dose tonight and had a walk with me this afternoon. He keeps insisting on walking up the stairs by himself and manages quite well. I have tried lifting him up and down but he does not like it and he is heavy boy (35kg). Getting up does not seem to be aproblem for him yet, nor (touch wood) has any incontinence occured. Considering he was running around the house like a mad dog only a fortnight ago it is still heartbreaking. He is such a bouncy lad and I always feared that his mad running and jumping would have some undesired consequences for him one day.

 

If he is carrying any excess weight, you will need to help him lose it. I don't know if the 35kg is because he's a big dog, or very muscular, or if he's fat, but if there's any fat, it will help him enormously if you help him get rid of it. Excess weight makes a HUGE difference with older dogs who have a mobility problem.

 

I am taking Mel with me on Thursday to see the Vet. I am determined that Jupp should be X-rayed, or getting some more diagnositc tests done. Perhaps, I am being impatient and you could give me some advice as to how quickly one should see an improvement being on steroid tablets.

 

My advice to you, quite seriously, is to ask your vet for a specialist referral, which he cannot reasonably refuse. It's going to be better for you if he's insured, because specialist investigations can be pricey. When Jim had his MRI the series of investigations and visits added up to nearly two grand. However, an MRI is probably the only way you will really know what's going on and a specialist will give you all the available options - if anyone in the UK does the shots, they will. They have an MRI at Newmarket at the Animal Health Trust, and they are very, very kind and patient people who will answer all of your questions with no evasion or defensiveness.

 

A vet school is the other option, and there's one at Bristol who may be able to do this for you, and that may be cheaper. Your vet should know who he can refer you to, but that's the route I would be taking if it were me.

 

Good luck!

 

 

I'm not sure whereabouts you are but I have compiled a short list of recommended vets in Hertfordshire, Essex and Middlesex if this would be of any use.

 

I'd be interested in your list of recommended vets if you could PM it to me? We may be moving further south at some point and obviously I will need to find a new vet if we do! Thanks!

[Batmom]

One of the reasons a vet may refuse is that it is a delicate procedure and if they aren't experienced with it, they may lack the confidence to try. All kinds of things can theoretically go wrong when you stick needles and inject fluids into the space between the vertebrae, and they may not want to risk it.

 

I can understand that, but it seems to me that especially when quality of life is becoming an issue, the better answer for such a vet to give is, "I've never done that and I'm not going to practice on your dog. Let's see if I can help you find someone who *is* experienced with it and can tell us more."

[Batmom]

ETA: It might be worth emailing Dr. Stack to see if she knows anyone in the UK who is familiar with the procedure. Believe her email is yumadons @ aol.com (without the spaces).

[Guest siamanti]

Hi and thank you,

 

Jupp is a big boy and he is not carrying any excess weight. Unfortunately, I am not insured and I can understand Vets being careful about administering treatment that is unfamiliar to them but my Vet was actually quite dismissive. Anyway, I am waiting for the results of the X-ray and then I have to reassess. I think if I push my vet any further at the moment, he will show me the door. In addition, all the experts mentioned by Hawthorn are quite far away and my employer is anything but supportive. I just hope the X-ray will give me some answers. I just can't get my head around anything else at present.

 

thanks so much for all your kind words

 

Siamanti

[Guest Spiff]

I'm so sorry the hear that Jupp is getting worse! When Spiff was first in at the vet for his possible LS, the vet did a regular x-ray. I think he wanted to rule out other diagnoses before deciding on LS. Most of the time LS doesn't show up on x-rays - I'm not sure if it shows up on an MRI or not. In Spiff's case, there is an offset in his spine that likely stems from an old injury that seems to be pinching his nerves in his LS region. So in Spiff's case, the x-ray was confirming a problem in that area. Our vet agreed to try the shots, but was VERY careful about it. He shaved a square of hair off Spiff's lower back and proceeded with great caution. The point is that the shots do NOT go into the spine itself or between the vertebrae, the shots go on either side of the LS region. So, it's really not likely that the vet would hurt the dog when attempting these shots. This is one reason why Dr. Stack suggests that it is worth trying them, because they would just not do anything if unsuccessful and don't represent a high risk.

 

Did your vet try the LS test described by Dr. Stack? The one where you use your thumbs to press on the LS region of the lower back to see if the rear legs drop? Spiff's reaction to this test was very obvious.

 

I also wanted to say that Spiff's problems with LS seem to come and go. It could be that it depends on the weather or it depends on if he's over-exerted himself or who knows? Sometimes he'll go a week or two with problems and then they get better for a week or two. It might help to keep an eye on Jupp over time and see if there is any variability in his symptoms. This might help pin down whether he has LS or is suffering from a single injury or something else.

 

I'll be thinking of you and Jupp!

[Guest siamanti]

 

Update on Jupp 20 February 2008 pm:

 

Well, I got Jupp back from the Vet about an hour ago. The X-rays have shown nothing, not arthritis, no tumors, no other signs of obvious injuries. I am not sure whether to laugh or to cry to be honest. The vet says it is likely to be a case of Lumbasacral Disease. I am not sure if he is actually trying to say that it is LS without admitting that we were on the right path all along. Anyway, he has ordered strict rest for Jupp and a high dose of PLT. We are meant to go back and see him Saturday morning. Mel and I have decided to listen to his recommendation and give it a chance until Saturday morning. If there is no change by then, I will have to consider what to do. In the meantime I will try and e-mail Dr.Stack and see if she knows of anyone in the UK who might be willing to try the injections.

 

I will keep you posted and thank you all for your ongoing help and support!

 

Thanks

Siamanti

 

 

 

PS: If anyone from the UK has had the injections, please do let me know.

[Guest siamanti]

 

20 February p.m

 

Dear all,

 

thank you so much again for all your kind support and good wishes. Just a quick update on Jupp's situation. As previously posted the X-rays showed up nothing. Jupp is taking a strong dose of PLT for the next three days and strict rest. Getting Jupp to rest has been almost impossible. He has been pretty spaced out all afternoon from his sedation but wouldn't lie down and rest-wanted to run around and fell three times-one time quite nastily in the front room which I have made as Jupp safe as I can. He has also peed a few times inside but I put that down to his meds. I have been lying with him and he has finally settled onto his new bed. In the meantime I had an e-mail of Dr. Stack who I had contacted (thank you Batmom for the address) but she did not know any vet in the UK familiar with the procedure. She said the only chance would be an "OLD" Vet as (and she didn't say why) Depro injections are almost treated like a "crime" since the mid eighties.

 

Well, that's it for now. I am playing a waiting game until saturday then I will re-assesss. I am too tired to think straight at present and I hoping to get some sleep tonight. My deepest sympathies go to all you people who have poorly doggies;. I know what you are going through and it's awful. I am still hoping for a positive turn for my boy!

 

Thank you all once again!

 

Siamanti

[Hawthorn]

I'm sorry the vets I mentioned were too far away but your vet should be able to refer you to a suitable specialist if necessary. I've been to the Queen Mother Hospital in South Mimms, Hertfordshire, a couple of times with my dogs and found all the staff there to be lovely.

 

Even though you don't have any answers yet, it sounds like you have a plan of sorts now so hopefully you'll be able to get a little rest yourself. I know what it's like though - I'm a complete nervous wreck when either of my babies is ill!

 

Pllease be sure to keep us updated as I will be checking for progress reports.