Opinion On Symptoms Please

[kolarik1]

Ok, we've had Pop for just over 2 years. During that time, we have accumulated 17 pages of notes/comments and results from our vet due to the various symptoms Pop has had. He started with a ear (yeast) infection within a month of getting him. He had a cough in the past, with clear fluid coughed up a couple of times...this went away and was gone for quite awhile until recently when I heard the cough, but I haven't heard it since. He also has been getting infections in his paws, on his anus and genitals and now he has severe bacterial infections on his face (eyes/snout). The symptoms have always cleared up with steroids. When we first got him, we were feeding him Exceed from Sam's Club, but he hated it, so last January we started making a homemade vegetarian diet out of Dr. Pitcairn's book; he loved it but it was hard to make enough to last even a week as he's such a large dog. Then in July 2007 we switched him to Eagle Pack Holistic and he was symptom free until around Thanksgiving, beginning of December. We had a biopsy done last July (2007) and it came back as allergies. We recently switched vets when we adopted Zelda and our new vet is much more in to getting to the bottom of the problem. We just did another biopsy about 2 weeks ago and it came back as the most severe, worst bacterial infection the lab has ever seen possibly caused by allergic dermatitis. They are doing staining right now on the samples as there might be a fungal infection/problem which could be the underlying problem. So for now, our vet said he needs 12-16 weeks of antibiotics (penicillin/clavamox won't work on this infection, he's on cephalexin) and a lifetime of antihistamines with occasional prednisone shots. We are going in Tuesday morning for a Thyroid panel (which I pushed for). I've included pictures of his face from about 2 weeks ago just to show what his face looks like. The antibiotics seem to be drying up the infected areas...we also started giving him acidophilus pills once a day to help replace the lost bacteria from his digestive tract and a fish oil pill each day to improve his coat (his coat looked greyt and his hair grew back on his butt when we did the homemade diet and when he was on Eagle Pack until his symptoms reappeared, now it's kind of dull).

 

 

 

 

So does this sound like allergies to everyone else?

[Guest S8VGreys417]

I have never had to deal with anything along these lines before but i hope he feels better soon!

[Guest Jennifer4719]

Poor boy! It could be allergies. Hopefully they get to the bottom of it. My dad's lab is allergic to the staph on her skin(normal staph on skin that everyone has). She has been on steroids, antihistamines and now they are doing some shots to desensitize her from the staph. If that works she will only need to have this shot once a month. My mixed breed dog has seasonal allergies that will start here in spring and last until June.

[tbhounds]

I would seek out a cert. Derm Dr for a second opinion. Are they sure it's not a auto-immune disease brewing?

[Guest LittleGreys]

I wonder if it could be CLE, a form of lupus.......

Here is a quick link I found.

http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/immune%20...hematosus.htm...

There is a skin form which mainly affects the face, and sometimes feet. The other form, which I researched more extensively when I thought Munchie may have it, is systemic.

Lupus is treated with steroids, which may exlain why your boy's symptoms went away on steroids. I believe I read that it can be cyclic, which would be why is goes away and comes back.

Just my thoughts, I hope you can get your boy feeling better!!

 

[Guest greytmonty]

PM Bodie, it sounds like what Rhonda is going through with Bodie's allergies etc.

[fritofeet]

Oh owie! Poor baby! Poor you!

 

First...have you had TBD testing done?

Second, I would compare the ingredients that you were feeding when you did the home cooked diet vs the Eagle Pack?

 

"worst bacterial infection the lab has ever seen possibly caused by allergic dermatitis" is what the pictures look like, and allergic dermatitis is usually a contact type allergy.

What kind of bowls are you using for feeding? If you aren't using stainless steel, I would recomend several sets of dishes so that you can sterilize them after and keep the bacteria or if it is a fungus from being reintroduced to his poor face.

 

Have you and your new vet discussed allergy testing? Constant allergic reactions can weaken the immune system opening it up to reoccuring infections.

 

Allergy testing isn't hugely accurate from what I understand in the food department, but I found it to be a good place to start with my allergy hound, and it was pretty right on actually for his food allergies. With is food allergies though, he was constantly scratching, gnawing, licking, and face rubbing.

 

 

[patricia]

OMG....that poor baby. I hope you can get to the bottom of it all. Sending gentle hugs to both of you.

[kolarik1]

We haven't done any allergy testing or TBD testing. We did blood panels last year and at that time, his HCT/PCV, HGB and RBC seemed to be either at the low end of normal to low (the tests were done a couple of different times, twice in april, once in july). His T4 was 1.04 both times. Yes, we use stainless steel dishes. This is the worst it's ever been on his feet...if you look at the picture of Pop & Zelda that I posted in 'cute things...' under 'our 2 babies' he just had infections in his paws which we were treating...the picture was taken just about 2 - 3 weeks before the face pictures, which shows how quick it breaks out. Our new vet doesn't think it's food allergies as according to her 1)he would break out within 2 weeks of new food, yet he was symptom free for 6 months on Eagle Pack, which is what his foster mom fed him & 2)food allergies supposedly aren't responsive to steroids. Plus, someone from our group said that her vet claimed her dog had allergies for quite a few years and he went to an allergist, who eventually ran out of options...she asked her vet for another thyroid panel and her dog was borderline normal, so they started him on thyroid meds and within 2 months all his symptoms were gone. I have contacted the vets at Ohio State University from the Greyhound Project and faxed them down all the results we have so far and will try to get the rest on Tue when we go in for his thyroid panel.

[Guest SusanP]

Krissn333 here on GT has had a good deal of experience in discoid lupus with her hound Pinkie and could give you info. Our Simon had a mild case and the vet prescribed Niacinamide and Tetracycline, orally for it, which kept things under control. Steroids can be used, and topical ointments. Not sure if there is more.

 

The photos and the fact that nose, eyes and feet are affected sound and look to me like discoid lupus could be a possibility.

 

 

 

 

[kolarik1]

Krissn333 here on GT has had a good deal of experience in discoid lupus with her hound Pinkie and could give you info. Our Simon had a mild case and the vet prescribed Niacinamide and Tetracycline, orally for it, which kept things under control. Steroids can be used, and topical ointments. Not sure if there is more.

 

The photos and the fact that nose, eyes and feet are affected sound and look to me like discoid lupus could be a possibility.

 

 

What symptoms did your hound have? Did a biopsy come back as allergic dermatitis for you like it has for our boy? I had read about the discoid lupus, but our vet is insisting that it is not hormonal, but will do a thyroid panel anyway. Is there any other tests that would rule lupus out? Our vet at first mentioned lupus, but wanted to wait on the biopsy results...I really don't want to treat him for the wrong thing, which is why I'm trying to get other owner's ideas so I can bombard our vet. Thanks.

[Guest SusanP]

To be honest, our vet simply diagnosed the discoid lupus through putting Simon on the tetracycline and niacinamide for awhile to see if it worked, and it did. We decided to do it that way since the meds were not risky or expensive. She had problems only on her nose, so it was really very mild. I'm not sure what diagnostic procedures are used in other cases. That's why I mentioned Krissn333, because I suspect she's been through a lot more of the dignostic procedures and I'm pretty sure Pinkie is on more meds than Simon was, as her case was more severe.

 

Maybe your hound has more than one thing going on at once? One thing I'd like to know is how does a biopsy show an allergic response? I really don't know much about how biopsies are used. Is an allergic response something that you can see in a biopsy, or is it determined by process of elimination to be the cause of a problem only when other things, like mites, etc...don't appear in the biopsy? I'm just throwing questions out there. The answers might help you know how sure the vet is about the allergic dermatitis.

 

Discoid lupus is autoimmune--I'm not sure if it could be described as hormonal. (I think allergies are considered to be autoimmune as well)

[Jackandgrey]

I think consulting with Ohio State is the way to go. Your poor fella that looks so awful.

[fritofeet]

Steriods are commonly used to calm down an allergic reaction.

 

Temeril P is a combo of an anithistamine plus prednesone.

 

Thyroid is a possibility, but I wanted to mention that some manufacturers will make changes in a formula without announcing it. It could explain why he was fine and then started having symptoms again. Also, it is common for allergies to a reoccuring item to develop over time as well.

 

I don't have any experience with Lupus either, but it was a thought that crossed my mind as well.

 

Good Luck to your pup.

[Guest snowberry]

I'm wondering, too, if it isn't some form of lupus - see photos here:

 

http://www.utskinvet.org/vinmodb2004/Autoi...m#Discoid_Lupus

 

The bacterial infections would then be secondary infections as a result of underlying lupus. Friends who have a dog with discoid lupus told me that a completely home-made diet was the one thing that really made a difference, and your experience seems to be similar. I know it's difficult to diagnose, it took my friends the best part of a year before the vet said "It's not anything else, so it has to be auto-immune".

 

Hope you get some clear results from the latest round of tests!

[Guest SusanP]

You know, though, I notice that the nose itself, the black wet part, doesn't seem in your photo to be affected...is it? I think in discoid lupus, that's usually the *first* spot where the depigmentation and soreness appears. But asking an expert would be the way to go.

[Guest SusanP]

This is an interesting article on allergens and treatment for dogs.

 

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/medical/canine-allergies.html

 

It sounds like inhaled allergies are actually more common than food allergies. They can do intradermal skin testing for those.

 

 

[Guest KennelMom]

The pics look similar - though more severe - to what we went through with our grey Grandpa...he became scabby around, essentially, every oriface of his body - mouth, eyes, anus. Poor guy...it was awful. He does not tolerate steroids (this is actually how we found that out b/c it was the first line of treatment). The ultimate diagnosis was an auto-immune disease secondary to Ehrlichia. We'd run him through a full course of doxy and have no problems...as soon as he'd come off the doxy, the scabs would come back. He's been on a maintenance dose of doxy ever since (a couple years).

 

It wouldn't hurt to do a tick panel on him...

 

[kolarik1]

You're right, the black part on his nose doesn't get affected on top, sometimes on the side it will get red, scab over, then the scab will fall off...once some sort of treatment is administered it heals and becomes black again. As for the biopsy, they said that the bacterial infection could be caused by something such as allergic dermatitis. On this second biopsy 7 samples were taken (1-anus, 1-genitals, 1-paw, 1-eye, 3-snout/mouth area). His old biopsy only 2 sections were examined.

On his original biopsy it states "There was no evidence of autoimmune skin disease such as pemphigus or discoid lupus erythematosus in the sections examined. The lesion is morphologically consistent with chronic pyoderma probably induced by chronic irritation by bacterial infection with a possible underlying hypersensitivity reaction to an unknown allergen. Flea, mite, food, inhaled & contact allergens are potential causes.'

 

[Guest SusanP]

Well, that sounds fairly conclusive. What about intradermal skin testing for allergens? Ugh, that poor dear boy!

 

I forgot if you said whether he's on antihistamines all the time now? Our vet advises we use Omega 3and6 supplements during our Dr.Doug's pollen allergy season (Dermcaps, etc...). But of course, best of all would be eliminating the source.

 

I've never heard of dogs being treated with topical steroid creams, but that's what I used for my own allergic skin rashes. They can cause changes in the skin with long-term use, but they help kill the itch at least.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I would do a tick panel first, to rule that out. Then if they think it is allergies, try allergy testing for seasonal allergies, and a food trial for suspected food allergies.

 

Can you explain more about this biopsy they did? I've never heard of a biopsy being able to confirm or deny allergies.

[kolarik1]

I don't know how it's tested, I just watched the vet take skin samples, a couple had formaldehyde put on them and they were sent to a lab in Texas. I do know they are staining the samples to test for fungal infection. Our boy is only on antibiotics for right now. Our old vet's version of testing for food allergies was 'he has allergies, do you want to try the food we have?', which is when we switched to Eagle Pack Holistic (www.eaglepack.com). As for the homemade diet, he still had the symptoms, just his coat improved. When he was on the Exceed, we had to rub Vit E oil on his butt to ensure he didn't have bald thighs. Our old vet never recommended anthihistamines or anything like that, just our current vet whom we're seeing on Tuesday, so hopefully we'll know more then.

[krissn333]

It does sound like something autoimmune, and, as kennelmom mentioned, could be secondary to a tick borne disease. I would definintely have him tested for the full array of TBDs

 

It doesn't sound like discoid lupus to me, but there are many forms of lupus, both in people and in dogs. My Pinky has discoid lupus but has lately exhibited signs of systemic lupus as she's lost some toenails. When she gets like that she gets a round of steriods to calm everything down. She takes tetracycline, niacinamide, and vitamin E twice a day, as well as an Omega 3 caplet once a day.

 

What is the meat source of the Eagle Pack Holistic you're feeding? I would recommend trying Solid Gold Holistique Blendz...it's a salmon based formula with lots of ingredients that promote healthy skin....also has no allergens (unless the dog has a fish allergy, which I haven't seen too often personally).

 

I know that Momof Sweet Potatoes has a lupus doggie that she has used topical steriod cream on for his nose...maybe she can give you more info on that.

 

I hope that you're able to find a solution soon! I personally am not a big fan of the Hill's Veterinary diets, but sometimes their Z/D anti allergen formula is all that works for some dogs. Someone with more food information might be able to tell you about something better that might be comparable. I think the Solid Gold Holistique Blendz does a pretty good job of coming close to the z/d but I am no expert on Hill's foods.

[kolarik1]

I've been told by someone in our group to try EVO or venison (don't ever say the V-word around Pop, he's had it fresh after being grinded and will do anything you ask in order to get it). Supposedly venison is good for allergies and I see that someone on here feeds their dog Natural Balance Venison & Sweet Potato, so I'm curious about that as our boy LOVES his fruits/veggies. Speaking of venison, Pop likes it so much that on Christmas Eve my parent's neighbor shot a buck and had it loaded up in a cart behind his 4-wheeler...Pop went out there and was licking the hock as he wanted that deer meat so bad and was rather bummed when he didn't get any. Zelda hasn't had any yet since we've gotten her...if only they knew about the drawer full in the bottom of the upright freezer. I just want to make absolutely sure that it is allergies and isn't misdiagnosed. Thanks for everyone's ideas.

[Guest IrskasMom]

 

 

 

I really have no Advice just lots of gentle Hugs for you and Pop