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Pink Crescents Inside Nose (and Some Other Random Stuff...)


Guest Filmnpuck
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Guest Filmnpuck

I've seen some people on this board talk about pink crescents that appear on the upper portion of their greys nostrils, but has anyone had a grey whose pink crescents have come, gone, and come back again?

 

Here's a picture of my grey Elmo taken about a couple weeks before I got him (March '06). If you look closely, you can see a little bit of pink crescent there at the top of the nostril:

Galahad_BlackMale2.jpg

 

Now, here is a picture of Elmo taken by a friend around August of '06 (so about 6 months after I got him). As you can see, no crescents, plus his skin and hair look great. And, around this time, he hardly shed:

willyelmo4.jpg

 

Okay, sometime last fall, starting around late-September, early October, it was as if he started falling apart. He suddenly started shedding like CRAZY, and he developed the pink crescents under his nose again. He also started to develop redness around the mouth and eyes (which he never had even when he did have the pink crescents back when I adopted him). Also, right about the same time, he was diagnosed with corneal dystrophy (i.e., pannus). We've been seeing an eye specialist (great doctor) and he's on Tacrolimus for the dystrophy (won't cure it, but will keep it under control).

 

When this all started, I had our vet do a bunch of bloodwork, including thyroid tests. Everything came back normal. We also tried some anti-histamines for a possibility of allergy. No luck. By this point, he had lost a lot of hair. Up until this point, he had been growing back a lot of hair from his crate-burn, but after all this, his butt was significantly more bare than when I got him. Plus, he had happy tail surgery about a week before I adopted him. All the hair on his tail had since grown back. But after the shedding, a portion of his tail was bare again. Even the white on his chest, you could start to see some pink skin showing through.

 

Okay, he FINALLY stopped shedding around last December. I thought that maybe he had just blown his kennel coat to the extreme and that he would start growing hair back. He has grown some hair back, but it's still not even close to what he looked like in that second photo. To me, the tail is the big tell. He's grown a little bit back on his tail so that it doesn't look quite so bare, but you can still see the skin. In the meantime, we changed his food (from Nutro Lamb and Rice Formula to the prescription Eukanuba Fish and Potato... his poops are better than they've ever been, at least). He still has the redness around his mouth and eyes, and his hair is just not what it was around this time last year. It looks thin in places.

 

I'm posting this mainly because just today and yesterday, he has started shedding like crazy again. It could be that it is very hot in the Chicagoland area this weekend (although he's hardly been outside and we keep the AC set nice and chilly). Also, the pink crescents in the nose appear a little more red and now there's some pink developing on the top of his nose.

 

The thing is, he's not in any particular distress. And he still looks prettier than most of the dogs out there (I get plenty of "cool dog!" comments on walks). But he just doesn't look as great as he used to, and I'm irritated that I haven't been able to locate the underlying problem after all this time. And if it gets any worse, he might go completely bald! (Is there Rogaine for greys?) Is there something that I could be forgetting?

 

Sorry for the ridiculously long post.

 

 

 

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Guest mirthlesstroll

Could it be a food allergy? My Logan has a lot of food allergies, as do my kids, and the allergies seem to manifest in skin/coat problems. Logan's coat gets rough, and he gets flaky/itchy/red skin if he gets into anything, or if the pollen count here is high. Maybe try the Nutro again to see if the food is the problem. :clover

What do you wash him with, and how often do you wash him? He may need a different shampoo. I had to get special allergy shampoo for Logan.

 

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There is a form of pemphigus which affects the nose. I'd have him checked out for that - it's an immune-mediated disorder and as such, it's worth getting a diagnosis. If you vet hasn't heard of it, I'd ask for a referral to a specialist centre.

 

Here's a link -

 

Pemphigus Foliaceus

 

The dog in the pictures obviously has a fairly advanced form, but it's possible that Elmo is in the early stages. There are other forms, though.

 

 

 

Another link

 

It sounds as if your Elmo could perhaps have Pemphigus Erythematosus, which is a fairly mild form of the disorder. It may never get as bad as the dog in the first link, but it's worth finding out IF he has pemphigus, and if so, which type.

 

Good luck!

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Guest Filmnpuck
Could it be a food allergy? My Logan has a lot of food allergies, as do my kids, and the allergies seem to manifest in skin/coat problems. Logan's coat gets rough, and he gets flaky/itchy/red skin if he gets into anything, or if the pollen count here is high. Maybe try the Nutro again to see if the food is the problem. :clover

What do you wash him with, and how often do you wash him? He may need a different shampoo. I had to get special allergy shampoo for Logan.

 

When the problem first started, he had been on the Nutro Lamb and Rice already for at least two months, if not more. Since then, we've changed to the Eukanuba Fish and Potato, which he's been on for about two or three months, and nothing has really changed despite the complete change in protein and fiber sources. Way back when I first got him I had him on Science Diet for Sensitive Stomachs, though... I've heard it's not the greatest food, but it might be worth trying again to see if these issues go away, since there weren't any problems when he was on it. (Then again, I'm worried about changing his food too much as well.)

 

I don't wash him that often (at least he hasn't turned stinky on me), and when I do, I use (you guessed it) the special allergy shampoo I got from my vet. Yarg.

 

There is a form of pemphigus which affects the nose. I'd have him checked out for that - it's an immune-mediated disorder and as such, it's worth getting a diagnosis. If you vet hasn't heard of it, I'd ask for a referral to a specialist centre.

 

Here's a link -

 

Pemphigus Foliaceus

 

The dog in the pictures obviously has a fairly advanced form, but it's possible that Elmo is in the early stages. There are other forms, though.

 

 

 

Another link

 

It sounds as if your Elmo could perhaps have Pemphigus Erythematosus, which is a fairly mild form of the disorder. It may never get as bad as the dog in the first link, but it's worth finding out IF he has pemphigus, and if so, which type.

 

Good luck!

 

Oy, Jaysus I feel sorry for that dog. Okay, it's not anywhere NEAR that bad, thank God. I know that he does have a genetic disorder (a few of his littermates had it too) that causes the top of his nose to dry out and flake every so often, but I just put some vitamin E on there every couple of days and that takes care of it. I'm not sure what the disorder is called though. I'll be sure to do a little more research on the pemphigus, though.

 

I guess the thing that most confuses me about this is that it all came literally out of NOWHERE. I got to this point withing two or three days and it's just stayed that way ever since.

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I agree with Silverfish. If your vet is not familiar with pemphigus I would ask for a referral and take Elmo to a specialty clinic.

Greyhound angels at the bridge- Casey, Charlie, Maggie, Molly, Renie, Lucy & Teddy. Beagle angels Peanut and Charlie. And to all the 4 legged Bridge souls who have touched my heart, thank you. When a greyhound looks into you eyes it seems they touch your very soul.

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Guest Filmnpuck
I agree with Silverfish. If your vet is not familiar with pemphigus I would ask for a referral and take Elmo to a specialty clinic.

 

The only thing is, even if it is pemphigus, would that explain the hair loss?

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I would agree with the pemphigus as well. That would explain the peeling nose and cresents and it can also present in other areas as well. Carolina has pemphigus which only affects her nose. But our vet said it could show up around the mouth, eyes, toes, and anal area as well.

 

I don't know about the shedding part though. Talk to your vet about auto-immune issues. If you were to start treatment you might see improvement in him overall. Prednisone doesn't work for all. It didn't work for Carolina so we use Niacinimide and sometimes a cream.

 

Some more information for you to read over.

 

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php?act=Se...%2Bchapped+nose

 

Edited by Greylover97

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Carolina (R and A Carolina) & Rebel (FA Ready).
At the bridge: Kira (Driven by Energy) 7/19/97 - 6/17/04 & Jake (Jumpstart Dude) 9/12/00 - 1/24/15

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Pemphigus is a form of systemic lupus...usually you see that affect the toenails (bleeding, falling out altogether). But, pemphigus can also affect the nose. There is also discoid lupus, which my Pinky has. Here's what her nose looked like when I got her (it SHOULD be black):

205217029.jpg

The shot is a little blurry but you can see that it's all pink and that the top of it has big shingles of dry, cracked skin.

 

The recommended treatment regimen for discoid lupus is tetracycline along with several supplements. Pinky gets niacinamide, vitamin E, and omega 3 fish oil.

 

Do you do a lot of outdoor activities with Elmo? Most people and animals with a form of lupus are photosensitive and sun exposure causes the disease to "flare up" and get worse for a period of time.

 

Does he seem to feel a little punky when he's having these bouts with the pink crescents? If so you might be looking at something like pemphigus as opposed to discoid lupus which mainly affects the skin only.

 

Usually your vet will diagnose this stuff by doing a biopsy of the nose, it's definitely something to look into. Once the actual cause is determined it will be much easier to treat.

 

These are both autoimmune conditions...basically the body's immune defenses are semi-retarded and begin to view parts of the body as foreign, therefore they attack healthy tissues. In Pinky's case it's her nose and her skin (her skin was very flaky and she smelled funny).

 

Interesting to note, Pinky is a dark colored dog too, she is actually dark brindle, but at a glance she looks black. In the sunlight you can see the brindle though. Is Elmo by chance the same, or is he just plain black? We have a dog at the kennel that is the same color as Pinky and he has developed the crusty nose too...I wonder if it's something that is carried in the genetic makeup that produces this super dark brindle coat.

 

A course of prednisone might help Elmo, and of course, keep him out of the sun whenever possible. I would def. look into the biopsy.

 

Both forms of lupus can be a bear to deal with, and there will always be ups and downs, but once you find a treatment that works, the downs become less frequent. I have a combination of discoid and systemic lupus, I get all the skin issues but I also have the joint pain and fatigue associated with systemic lupus in humans. Been dealing with it since 2004...sometimes, when I'm not feeling well, it's very frustrating, but if I take care of myself diligently I feel better and stay better. There will be a lot of trial and error at first so hang in there. These poor kids don't know what's happening to them, all they know is they either don't feel good or their nose hurts! It's up to us to be diligent for them.

 

Best of luck to you!

Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose
Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13.

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Guest MomofSweetPotatoes

I'm not a vet, nor do I play one on TV and I didn't stay at a holiday in express last night.

 

Ok, my question is: What is the texture of Elmo's nose? Is it smooth, or does it have a cobblestone-ish appearance? Also, are you putting the tacrolimus ointment on his nose? That's what we do with Yardman and it helps the peely-ness of his nose. See here for how we apply it http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php?showtopic=173395

 

Cobblestone- BattandDougseaster002.jpg

 

Or smooth?

defygravity.jpg

 

The smooth appearance is a classic sign of discoid lupus or lupus erythmatosus or (really any kind of autoimmune syndrome affecting the skin) including Phemigus Foliceus.

From my experience, (Yardman has Lupus) we did a biopsy of Yardman's nose, to rule out an thing bacterial, viral etc. Lupus is one of those diseases, which you test for everything else, and if it is all negative, Lupus or autoimmune is your end result.

We've had hair loss over the entire body, more uniform, but he has lost bits in the corners near his eyes from time to time. We found that the change in seasons was causing his hair follicles to basically purge themselves. It sounds weird, but it is the only way to explain it. We made sure there were no environmental allergies causing it. Sure enough 4-6 weeks, and the hair was coming back..

 

Things we have found that have exacerbated Yardman's symptoms are:

Sunlight, long exposure in the summer, or hazy days, will cause some hairloss and nose peeling. We've helped fight the effects by using sunscreen on his nose and body (baby approved sunscreen works well and he would have to ingest the about a ¼ cup full to have any adverse reactions) check with your vet for a recommendation though. We also use chapstick ultra (with SPF!) on his nose. This protects it and keeps it moist.

 

Dog foods with chemical preservatives we've found that switching to foods with simple ingredient lists helped curb some symptoms of hair loss and nose peels etc. We've had luck with foods like California Natural, Flint River Ranch and Solid Gold Hollistique and Barking at the moon (I think)

We now feed raw which has had the best results for us. Yardman's hyperkeratosis of his feet is nearly non-existent on raw and very little peely nose and shedding is to a minimum but still season changes, he does shed a bit more than most. If you consider raw, I would consult with a veterinary nutritionist on how to supplement the diet to help support the immune system properly. Which leads to my next paragraph-

 

Supplements - We found supplementing Yardman's diet, helped relieve some symptoms of hairloss and peely nose. We do the following - CoQ10 100 mgs, vitamin E 400 IU, Flax oil 100mg, fish oil 1000mg, multi-vitamin (without iron) we also apply tacrolimus as needed now. We were doing it daily but have managed to wean down. When supplementing, it will take about 6 weeks for changes to start being noticed. A word of caution when supplementing the skin - giving too many essential fatty acids and those supplements that support the skin can make the skin appear waxy or greasy. So, always approach supplementing with the guide of a vet or nutritionist.

 

A common prescription combination from Vet's regarding autoimmune - is to prescribe a combination of Tetracycline and Niacinimide (not niacin!) this works for some but again you will have to give a course of at least 6 weeks to see changes. (It didn't work for us and it made Yardman feel poopy)

 

Ok, so this is a bit of a book, but I hope it helps you.

 

We've also found the book Skin Diseases of Dogs and Cats by Steven Melman to be helpful, not the end all be all of information, but helpful. I had a copy of it, lent it out and never got it back, so I can't even offer to lend it to you. But if your library has it, it might be worth borrowing it.

 

Also, I want to add: Watch your kidney blood values and check urinalyses at least once per year. Lupus is one of those diseases that like to hang out in the kidneys. We check Yardman's values 2 times per year, partly because of his history when we first got him, but mostly because of the lupus. Much like Pinky - Yardman too has the joint aches and fatigue often associated with Lupus. We just keep an eye and supplement and let him rest when needed. Also wanted to add too, to the supplement list - Glucosamine. Yardman gets that too.

Edited by MomofSweetPotatoes
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Guest SoulsMom
Supplements - We found supplementing Yardman's diet, helped relieve some symptoms of hairloss and peely nose. We do the following - CoQ10 100 mgs, vitamin E 400 IU, Flax oil 100mg, fish oil 1000mg, multi-vitamin (without iron)

 

This is one pill of each once a day? I'm reading this thread and starting to wonder about Soul. He has the smooth nose that peels from time to time and his bald butt doesn't seem to be growing much hair(I already use the fish oil once per day)

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Guest MomofSweetPotatoes
Supplements - We found supplementing Yardman's diet, helped relieve some symptoms of hairloss and peely nose. We do the following - CoQ10 100 mgs, vitamin E 400 IU, Flax oil 100mg, fish oil 1000mg, multi-vitamin (without iron)

 

This is one pill of each once a day? I'm reading this thread and starting to wonder about Soul. He has the smooth nose that peels from time to time and his bald butt doesn't seem to be growing much hair(I already use the fish oil once per day)

 

Yes, but please check with your vet for their O.K.

By the way - Yardman still has a bald butt...just less bald than before.

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Guest Filmnpuck
Pemphigus is a form of systemic lupus...usually you see that affect the toenails (bleeding, falling out altogether). But, pemphigus can also affect the nose. There is also discoid lupus, which my Pinky has. Here's what her nose looked like when I got her (it SHOULD be black):

205217029.jpg

The shot is a little blurry but you can see that it's all pink and that the top of it has big shingles of dry, cracked skin.

 

The recommended treatment regimen for discoid lupus is tetracycline along with several supplements. Pinky gets niacinamide, vitamin E, and omega 3 fish oil.

 

Do you do a lot of outdoor activities with Elmo? Most people and animals with a form of lupus are photosensitive and sun exposure causes the disease to "flare up" and get worse for a period of time.

 

Does he seem to feel a little punky when he's having these bouts with the pink crescents? If so you might be looking at something like pemphigus as opposed to discoid lupus which mainly affects the skin only.

 

I put vitamin E on his nose regularly for the flakies. And the occasional fish oil tablet, although I've kinda been slacking on those lately (I basically just give them as he needs them). I'll give him one a day from now on though and see if that helps.

 

Elmo is incredibly lazy, even in greyhound terms, so there's not a whole lot of outdoor activity. He does, however, love the water, and I just got his City of Chicago Dog Park license so that I can take him to the beach... but I guess I'll have to put it on hold for a bit.

 

He doesn't really ever get an attitude with me. In fact, he's gotten pretty used to me messing with his face and tail when he's laying down, looking for signs of improvement. Doesn't necessarily mean his nose doesn't hurt, though.

 

Thanks to everyone for all the really great advice. You guys are awesome!

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Guest SoulsMom
Ok, his nose looks almost EXACTLY like that.

 

Guess it's time to just go have the biopsy.

 

 

So does Souls . . . .I'm so glad I found this thread. What exactly does a biopsy entail? I'm going to call my vet, but I am out of work, so I can't afford a lot of tests right now. I know I also want to have his thyroid checked, but what else should I tell him? That I think Soul has Lupus and if he can confirm with as few invasive tests as possible?

 

Thank you so much Filmnpuck for posting this . . .I had no idea . . . .but this sounds like Soulman to a "T" . . . .

Edited by SoulsMom
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Guest MomofSweetPotatoes
Ok, his nose looks almost EXACTLY like that.

 

Guess it's time to just go have the biopsy.

 

 

What exactly does a biopsy entail?

 

 

The vet will have to sedate Soul. They will make 2 small incisions on each side of his nose. See where Yardman has pink on the corners of his nose? That's where the incisions are. They are made more towards the inside area and then are closed with a couple of stitches. They need to get several layers of the skin to view all cells, etc. Yardman recovered quickly from it, he just never got pigment back at the incision site.

Your vet will be able to give you complete details about the whole process, that is just it in a nutshell.

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