Resource Guarding... Me? Or 'his Space' Or Both

[Guest greytmiles]

Hello all,

I'll get right to it.

This morning Miles snapped at my roommate (Joe) when he tried to come upstairs to use the bathroom. He made contact with his hand, but didn't break the skin. I think the most disturbing part was that Joe was petting Miles (with wagging tail), and as soon as Joe stepped forward, Miles went for it... no warning growl or anything. I'll try to list out the facts to make things more digestible.

 

Areas Miles is guarding:

-Downstairs sofa and area rug (w/ his bed)

-->He has growled at Joe when both on and off the couch, always with me present

-->He once got up OFF the couch and went up to Joe. Had Joe not moved, Miles would have bit/snapped him in the bottom.

 

-My upstairs bedroom

-->Miles and I sleep in there with the door closed; Miles on his bed, me on mine.

-->If Miles hears footsteps outside my door after we've settled in, he'll bark and growl.

-->He once got up OFF his bed and went up to Joe (this was before I started closing the door at night), and snapped at him.

 

-(As of this morning) The upstairs hallway

-->Miles was 'waiting' in the hallway for me to finish getting ready for work in the bathroom. I wasn't even in sight when he snapped at Joe.

 

Attempts at improvement/correction:

-Joe's started feeding Miles dinner every night

-I verbally reprimand Miles every time he growls. He most often stops immediately, but not always.

 

ETA: 1/22 will be Miles' first gotcha day, and Joe has been my roommate since the beginning. New household developments include more regular boarding for Miles at a greyhound facility (NGAP) some single weekend nights and some slightly longer stays since about November. Also, the roommate and I are not getting along and plan on parting ways ASAP. I wonder if Miles' can pick up on my.... vibes? siiiigh.

 

Wow. As I'm typing this up I'm getting more and more concerned with the steady escalation. Also, I definitely feel like I should have been doing more sooner, but frankly don't know what steps to take!! I'm muzzling Miles a lot now, roommate is nervous, I'm nervous... the whole situation is bad. I'm just trying to be really honest about what's happening, and would like to regain control of this situation.

I'll contact my adoption group (Greyhound Angels, NJ) this weekend as well to see what they suggest.

 

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Erin

Edited January 6, 2011 by greytmiles

[Guest mcsheltie]

There are a lot of things that can be done.

 

I would have Joe walk Miles each day. Does Joe have any experience with dogs? If he does, have him teach him to come, complete with a lot of treats. Miles could start sleeping in Joe's room. Muzzle him so Joe doesn't get bit in the butt when he has to get up.

 

Positive behavior reinforcement. Have Joe carry treats in his pocket. When he walks by the bed and doesn't get growled at, have him throw Miles a treat. Don't stop, hand it to him or say anything. Just chuck it at him and keep walking. Same thing if he goes by Miles on the other side of a baby gate. No growling gets a treat thrown his way.

 

I would not let Miles on the sofa until he stops that. I would let him drag a leash and if he growls at Joe he is taken off his bed and removed to another room. He does not get to be with you after he does that. You are a resource to him, so if he growls he looses being with you.

 

I would also research and apply NILF training with Miles. There have been several topics on this board about it and lots of info if you Google it.

[Guest ChasesMum]

for us, the 1 year-ish mark was hard, they seem to push boundaries and try to impart their way...

 

that being said, growling at the closed door when he hears movement is fairly normal for us... guarding the people they love etc. Once I had to get DH up to calm George down so I could get in the bedroom (I had been out with the girls and got home very late after everyone was in bed).

 

I would NILIF with the couch for sure though, its NOT his space - his bed sure but not your couch. no way no how. and probably leash him to you and reinforce your rules. as stated, lots of advice in here about tactics.

 

and yeah he probably is picking up on your strife with roomie. they are pretty perceptive...

Edited January 6, 2011 by ChasesMum

[Guest greytmiles]

There are a lot of things that can be done.

 

I would have Joe walk Miles each day. Does Joe have any experience with dogs? If he does, have him teach him to come, complete with a lot of treats. Miles could start sleeping in Joe's room. Muzzle him so Joe doesn't get bit in the butt when he has to get up.

 

Positive behavior reinforcement. Have Joe carry treats in his pocket. When he walks by the bed and doesn't get growled at, have him throw Miles a treat. Don't stop, hand it to him or say anything. Just chuck it at him and keep walking. Same thing if he goes by Miles on the other side of a baby gate. No growling gets a treat thrown his way.

 

I would not let Miles on the sofa until he stops that. I would let him drag a leash and if he growls at Joe he is taken off his bed and removed to another room. He does not get to be with you after he does that. You are a resource to him, so if he growls he looses being with you.

 

I would also research and apply NILF training with Miles. There have been several topics on this board about it and lots of info if you Google it.

 

Thank you! These are all wonderful techniques. I really needed to take a step back and look at the big picture instead of just seeing each individual incident. I do NILF a bit (waiting for dinner, sitting for treats, etc), but will obviously have to ramp it up.

 

In addition to the other suggestions you made, do you think it would make sense to babygate my room at night (instead of shutting the door), and I throw treats at Miles if he stays quiet when Joe walks around?

 

Thank you so much for the advice.

Erin

[Guest zombrie]

For me, my first plan of action would be to bring him to the vet to make sure there isn't an underlying issue. I would want a to test for lyme disease. My dogs behavior changes when they have lyme, same with the horses. I know someone who almost put her grey to sleep because he bit her in the face while she was petting him (he was wide awake, tail wagging). Turns out he had a bad case of lyme and was in pain. In my experience, sometimes the behavior change is the only symptom.

 

After that and everything turns out ok, I would have your roommate keep treats with him and give them to Miles through out the day, so Miles understands he is not a bad person. I would also contact a behaviorist.

 

"In addition to the other suggestions you made, do you think it would make sense to babygate my room at night (instead of shutting the door), and I throw treats at Miles if he stays quiet when Joe walks around?"

 

Yes!

 

ETA I hate to even think of this... but is it possible your roommate is doing something to Miles he doesn't like while you are not around (since you two are not getting along)? Just a thought.

Edited January 6, 2011 by zombrie

[mychip1]

Ditto on what a lot of people have said!!!

 

One question - are you absolutely sure miles is not coming out of a sleep state when this is happening. i.e. when he got up and went to Joe and was going to snap, had he been sleeping? Also, is it ONLY Joe? I ask only because my Bridge boy Jack had a sleep disorder - and would even attack from the floor next to my bed - BUT it was clearly from a sleep state - and there was no distinction on who it was as it was a physciological issue.

 

From another perspective, that same boy was extraodrinarily protective of me particularly with men. My husband was fine - but any man who came in the house was greeted by major deep growls - and sometimes aggressive barking. I would muzzle him around men who came in the house.

 

He would lay by my side, stare at the person and growl even if they did not make a move towards me. And these were often people who I got along with! I am curious if this got worse after the tension escalated with Joe. What may be to us normal human squabbles and disagreements, might to your boy appear to be threats towards the one he loves. Particularly, I would feel this way if he is not showing this behavior to anyone else who might come in the house.

[Guest mcsheltie]

 

 

Thank you! These are all wonderful techniques. I really needed to take a step back and look at the big picture instead of just seeing each individual incident. I do NILF a bit (waiting for dinner, sitting for treats, etc), but will obviously have to ramp it up.

 

In addition to the other suggestions you made, do you think it would make sense to babygate my room at night (instead of shutting the door), and I throw treats at Miles if he stays quiet when Joe walks around?

 

Thank you so much for the advice.

Erin

 

It would be better if he threw the treats. Joe would be seen as the source of good things too. If you throw them it could be all the more reason to guard you. You could use verbal reinforcement as Joe throws the treats.

 

Since Miles does know how to sit, have Joe start doing a little obedience work with him. I would leave the room and let them do it together.

 

With dogs like this it works to set them up succeed. Set up scenarios where he might growl, but plan what you are going to do so Joe can treat before the growl.

 

Walking with Joe will do more than anything to help establish a positive relationship between them.

[Guest greytmiles]

for us, the 1 year-ish mark was hard, they seem to push boundaries and try to impart their way...

 

that being said, growling at the closed door when he hears movement is fairly normal for us... guarding the people they love etc. Once I had to get DH up to calm George down so I could get in the bedroom (I had been out with the girls and got home very late after everyone was in bed).

 

I would NILIF with the couch for sure though, its NOT his space - his bed sure but not your couch. no way no how. and probably leash him to you and reinforce your rules. as stated, lots of advice in here about tactics.

 

and yeah he probably is picking up on your strife with roomie. they are pretty perceptive...

 

Yeah, the couch is definitely off limits as of today. I will remove his 'blanket' and x-pen it when I'm not around.

Thanks for the reply!

 

 

For me, my first plan of action would be to bring him to the vet to make sure there isn't an underlying issue. I would want a to test for lyme disease. My dogs behavior changes when they have lyme, same with the horses. I know someone who almost put her grey to sleep because he bit her in the face while she was petting him (he was wide awake, tail wagging). Turns out he had a bad case of lyme and was in pain. In my experience, sometimes the behavior change is the only symptom.

 

After that and everything turns out ok, I would have your roommate keep treats with him and give them to Miles through out the day, so Miles understands he is not a bad person. I would also contact a behaviorist.

 

"In addition to the other suggestions you made, do you think it would make sense to babygate my room at night (instead of shutting the door), and I throw treats at Miles if he stays quiet when Joe walks around?"

 

Yes!

 

ETA I hate to even think of this... but is it possible your roommate is doing something to Miles he doesn't like while you are not around (since you two are not getting along)? Just a thought.

 

Thank you for your input!

Miles actually started on a 30-day cycle of Doxy about 3-weeks ago. He had some nasty mystery bruises which let to a blood test (low-platelets), which led to a tick test (negative results, actually), which led to the Doxy 'just in case'. I posted about it here.

Imo, his behavior has really 'picked back up' since starting the Doxy. I hadn't realized how low-key he'd been acting until he started improving on the meds. He's due for a platelet recheck next week - I'll be sure to mention the behavior issues to my vet as well.

 

And I certainly appreciate you 'asking the un-askable', but I'm very very confident that roomie wouldn't do anything to hurt Miles. It's important to address any and all possibilities, however awful.

 

Thanks!

Erin

[Guest Bang_o_rama]

It is odd how they can surprise you. Yesterday on the AM walk, Bang actually growled at someone who was still a good 50' down the block, which is utterly out of character; she loves everyone.

 

I think what happened was, this person was SO bundled up that Bang, unable yet to smell him, didn't know it was a real human. She has a pronounced fear of oddly humanoid objects; she won't go NEAR a snowman.

 

I think she surprised herself!

 

~D~

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Is your boy shy around men, or shy in public with strangers? A lot of times people think the hound is being "protective", but in all acutality its fear. Such is what I suspect when you say he growls and barks when he hears things that he cannot see, that is a typical fear response. Greyhounds do not have a natural tendency to "guard" (not speaking about resource guarding), so my first thought with growling, barking and biting is fear-based. Your situation though with the possible medical issue, would override a behavioral issue in my opinion.

 

Example, my current girl Olive was so fearful of men, any man that she would run and hide if a man looked at her. If she didnt have an escape route, it was the low growl. She wouldnt do this with me, but I worked very hard for months and months with hand-feeding, training, walking, etc. that she began to trust me. She has taken nearly 2 years to get comfortable with men she doesnt know, but it takes time. This is just an example to show you how easy it would be to say that my girl is protecting her mommy from men, but in all actuality she is very fearful of men. Maybe your hound has similar issues that you are now seeing.

 

Chad

[Batmom]

He actually doesn't sound like he's guarding anything. Sounds like he's frightened of Joe.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Chad & Batmom may be on the right track. Having Joe walk, feed and treat Miles will work whether it is guarding or fear.

[mychip1]

He actually doesn't sound like he's guarding anything. Sounds like he's frightened of Joe.

 

As a follow up to Batmom's comments - and my own, my boy Jack was absolutely "guarding" out of fear. His need to "protect" me came from his own insecurities. And, he felt particularly threatened by men - AND responded tremendously to emotion....i.e. if someone male was talking to me about something that had upset them, he would immediately respond - even if they were not displaying outward emotions. He had an incredible sense....

[Batmom]

Having Joe walk, feed and treat Miles will work whether it is guarding or fear.

 

Agreed.

[Guest greytmiles]

Having Joe walk, feed and treat Miles will work whether it is guarding or fear.

 

Agreed.

 

I'm so happy to read that any efforts in this vein will work in either a fear or guarding circumstance, and thank you all for your valuable input!

As far as Miles' to-date behavior around men both strange and familiar, I have to say he's always been super eager and interested in meeting a-n-y-b-o-d-y. He'll go right up to any stranger, tail wagging, probably smiling, sniffing, and play bowing. This is not to say that I'm writing off the possibility of Miles having developed a fear of Joe, but rather just to give you a better idea of his 'party boy' personality. Also Miles may very well be the most food-motivated dog on the face of the planet, so I'm definitely optimistic about doing positive reinforcement with treats from Joe.

 

Just a quick question about using the babygate in my bedroom door... I understand Joe's to throw treats when he walks by without any response from Miles, but what am I supposed to do when Miles does growl or get up? Should I just verbally reprimand?

 

Thanks guys!

Erin

[Guest mcsheltie]

I would give a Voice of God... NO! when he growls. No reprimand for just getting up.

 

Tell Joe to be quick with the treat dispensing. Don't give Miles a chance to growl. I don't know how your home is configured, but if he can pitch a treat in your room before he even comes out of his room, have him do it. Give another as he goes back or comes closer. Have him be a very generous treat dispenser!

 

When you are doing this out in the living room (when he is on his bed) use very high value treats. Cheese, real meat, whatever is his favorite.

[Guest greytmiles]

I would give a Voice of God... NO! when he growls. No reprimand for just getting up.

 

Tell Joe to be quick with the treat dispensing. Don't give Miles a chance to growl. I don't know how your home is configured, but if he can pitch a treat in your room before he even comes out of his room, have him do it. Give another as he goes back or comes closer. Have him be a very generous treat dispenser!

 

When you are doing this out in the living room (when he is on his bed) use very high value treats. Cheese, real meat, whatever is his favorite.

 

Awesome, thank you. VoG it is.

 

I'd say the bedroom growling happens maybe 2-3x a week, and unfortunately involves the sounds Joe makes when coming up the stairs. We'll figure something out.

[turbotaina]

I'm in the camp that a growl should not be reprimanded. Miles is communicating the only way he knows how. You are teaching him not to growl. Without that, a dog can go directly to a bite (which appears to have already happened at least once).

 

I also think, like Chad and Batmom, that this behavior is out of fear. Who knows what goes on in their little lemon brains - perhaps Joe startled Miles one time and Miles has become super wary. But yes, plenty of treats from Joe should help. And they should be good ones - bits of chicken, hotdog bits, anything that Miles finds irresistable and generally doesn't get often.

[NeylasMom]

I'm in the camp that a growl should not be reprimanded. Miles is communicating the only way he knows how. You are teaching him not to growl. Without that, a dog can go directly to a bite (which appears to have already happened at least once).

 

I also think, like Chad and Batmom, that this behavior is out of fear. Who knows what goes on in their little lemon brains - perhaps Joe startled Miles one time and Miles has become super wary. But yes, plenty of treats from Joe should help. And they should be good ones - bits of chicken, hotdog bits, anything that Miles finds irresistable and generally doesn't get often.

[Guest mcsheltie]

I'm in the camp that a growl should not be reprimanded. Miles is communicating the only way he knows how. You are teaching him not to growl. Without that, a dog can go directly to a bite (which appears to have already happened at least once).

 

I generally agree with this too. But each situation has to be judged individually. Miles has already snapped at Joe more than once and has also gotten off his bed, gone to Joe (who was minding his own business at the time) and tried to bite him. So they are past that point. Miles needs to know this behavior is not acceptable. My point is to try to give the treats before the growl to change his thinking pattern. But aggressive behavior should no longer be allowed because he has already escalated.

 

One VOG no snaps them out of their thinking pattern. It is quick, well timed and fair (as opposed to leash jerking or physical punishment) and they understand it. One should fix this with positive training methods as we have been talking about. But when the situation calls for it, NO! will get your point across.

[NeylasMom]

I'm in the camp that a growl should not be reprimanded. Miles is communicating the only way he knows how. You are teaching him not to growl. Without that, a dog can go directly to a bite (which appears to have already happened at least once).

 

One VOG no snaps them out of their thinking pattern. It is quick, well timed and fair (as opposed to leash jerking or physical punishment) and they understand it. One should fix this with positive training methods as we have been talking about. But when the situation calls for it, NO! will get your point across.

If you want to snap him out of it, squeeze a squeaky toy or shake the cookie jar to distract him and then reward when he comes running to you. Yelling at him is a punishment plain and simple and it doesn't make sense to me why people think that punishing a behavior that is being done out of fear is helpful or even acceptable. It's nothing but a human issue that the way a dog communicates when he's scared is undesirable to us. So what we can do is try to create situations where the dog is not scared and reduce the fear of any particular situation by associating it with something positive. In the meantime, to avoid the behavior we find undesirable, we manage the dog's environment. When that can't happen and the behavior occurs, we remove the dog or the thing causing fear as quickly as possible and try harder next time.

[turbotaina]

Yup. If the dog is growling because he is scared, yelling at him is going to scare him, too. Seems to me it would just exacerbate the situation because any time Joe comes up the stairs, he (Miles) gets yelled at. We're not talking about snarking because he doesn't want someone near his bone (resource guarding) - this is a fear reaction. Frightening him further would be counter-productive.

 

Batmom (I believe - I apologize if I have it wrong, Jey ) has more than once suggested that one speak to a snarking dog in a gently chiding voice, "Silly dog! What are you growling at?" kind of thing. This is reasonable to me - breaks the dog's concentration on the fear object and the one of voice will likely snap him out of it without the punishing/frightening aspect of the VoG.