Hypothyroid And Murmur

[Guest bernadette]

Vinnie slept very well through the night. The breathing heavy seemed to come in a couple of waves, but once it stopped, he slept well through the night.

 

About a month ago he did have a limp for three days. Because he is seemingly so symptomatic, I am concerned about the murmur. Of course I hope it turns out to be nothing.

 

TB, I appreciate your thoughts but you come across as not thinking I am doing enough for my heart dog.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts, fingers crossed for a good day today. Cardiology tomorrow.

 

[sweetdogs]

Vinnie slept very well through the night. The breathing heavy seemed to come in a couple of waves, but once it stopped, he slept well through the night.

 

About a month ago he did have a limp for three days. Because he is seemingly so symptomatic, I am concerned about the murmur. Of course I hope it turns out to be nothing.

 

TB, I appreciate your thoughts but you come across as not thinking I am doing enough for my heart dog.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts, fingers crossed for a good day today. Cardiology tomorrow.

 

Here's part of your first post in this thread:

"We just got home from our afternoon walk (only 10-15 min)... I don't know if I was imagining it, but it seemed maybe two or three times that his right hind leg had a little trouble coming up under him while walking, like he was dragging a little bit. I will look at this more during our night walk... not sure if I was really seeing that."

 

Coupled with his limp from last month, there could be an issue there. Dogs pant & whine from pain (& from the heat, especially an older dog), not just heart murmurs. I'm sure that's what tbhounds was alluding to.

[tbhounds]

Don't mean to come across as being judgmental- its clear you care for and love your boy. You may potentially be dealing with something more than a cardiac issue. The only way to determine that is to get him to a vet that will work him up.

As sweetdogs mentioned panting can be a sign of pain and discomfort. You are going with the assumption that he has heart disease, however, the only "test" that was performed was an ascultation of the chest. He may be dealing with so many other conditions that are not being addressed.

That's just what I'm concerned about. It's not that you don't care or are well meaning- just could be so many other conditions that would require more immediate care.

Edited May 28, 2012 by tbhounds

[Guest bernadette]

Thank you for the clarification, as that is how you came across but I suppose that will come with the territory- communicating via the internet... (like texting...)!

 

I am trying to wrap my head around all of the different possibilities and symptoms going on. Panting, that happens even in the cooler temperatures so I definitely won't blame that on the weather. When he lays down for the night it especially seems to pop up then and comes in waves. He trots still on his walks from time to time, he doesn't stop to whine or offer a paw or lie down... just stopping to, what it appears, catch his breath. I did watch for any more of the dragging I thought I saw, I saw nothing, thankfully.

 

I understand Vinnie may have other issues aside from the heart and I don't know which is the lesser of the potential evils. Luckily, the cardiologist I am seeing tomorrow owns he practice and they offer just about every service I think that we would need- including radiology. I am anxious. Vinnie is resting comfortably now.

Edited May 28, 2012 by bernadette

[duncan41]

Praying for a peaceful night. He's going to have a big day tomorrow, so he needs his rest - and so do you!

[Guest bernadette]

Thank you so much, truly.

[Guest bernadette]

SO... $689 later... my vet does not know what a grey's heart sounds like. Although there are slight mitral and aortic insufficiencies, nothing that needs to be treated and he is within grey range(murmur is 2/6). I am relieved, angry, frustrated and $689 lighter in the pocket. I will be calling my vet to ask for those xrays I had requested- on the house.

What I don't understand are the symptoms we've been having. When I described them at the appointment, they also thought CHF. The doctor today suggested pain (as TBHounds and Sweetdog did). The thing is, both vets now have shot down the thought of xrays as Vinnie didn't present with obvious leg pain- even when I told them about the limp from a few weeks ago. I should say, the first vet said if I really wanted them, he would do them during the dental for a clearer view- AFTER I saw the cardiologist as he wasn't comfortable with the murmur he heard. =(

[tbhounds]

Well, glad he doesn't have any significant cardiac changes- sorry your wallet took a hit.

I think I would try some meds at this point- joint supplements and/ or a NSAID like rimadyl or Metacam to see if you notice a difference in his attitude. The joint supplement will not show an immediate difference- but using a NSAID you should see a change pretty quickly.

How old is Vinnie??

[Guest bernadette]

He will be nine in August. Thank you TBHounds, I am VERY glad that he doesn't have a heart issue I am just at such a loss now. Last night wasn't like Sunday (the panting was awful and I thought it was the end), but he did not settle easy. He was very vocal and moved around the room a lot before settling for the night. Very our of the ordinary. I've never had to give him anything, I know nothing about these meds. Do I get rimadyl or Metacam from the vet?

I am afraid of overlooking something or not being able to help him. I feel relief, but also lots of confusion.

[tbhounds]

Yes, a NSAID drug like rimadyl or Metacam can be obtained from your vet. You just ran bloodwork so your get should have no problem dispensing it to you. If given daily you should monitor blood work every 6 months to check liver and renal values. If it helps you can ask for a script so you can buy it cheaper from one of the on line pharmacys. Joint supplements can be purchased on line-- everyone has their favorite but, I like Dasaquin with MSM.

Edited to add- are you still comfortable with your current vet?? Being from NJ I might be able suggest other veterinarians in your area.

Edited May 30, 2012 by tbhounds

[Guest bernadette]

I will look into that and give it a shot, thank you. I still would like the xray, am I crazy? I feel like we could be skipping something here.

[tbhounds]

Did the cardiologist do radiographs? For $700 I would hope so. The only other rads that you might want would be some survey abdominal films and if he's still limping maybe some limb films.

[45MPHK9]

Glad to hear that Vinnie does not have a cardiac problem, but I'd still insist on X-rays/further diagnostic testing to find out the source of Vinnie's pain/discomfort.

 

At the top of this forum is a pinned list of greyhound-savvy vets. Perhaps there's one in your area on that list. There are many NJ members on this forum. Maybe one of them will recommend a vet. Not sure what group you adopted your dog from, but I would not hesitate to call Linda Lyman at Greyhound Friends of New Jersey and ask her for a vet recommendation in New Jersey.

 

Thinking good thoughts for Vinnie.

Edited May 30, 2012 by 45MPHK9

[Guest bernadette]

Chest xray, which was clear. He is not still limping, no. That lasted about three days (about three weeks ago).

[KF_in_Georgia]

You need a vet who can check him for mobility issues--and I'm not entirely sure your regular vet is up to that. You want to see if your boy has back pain: one test is to take a treat near his nose, then move it around towards the back of the dog's head (not over his head, but past his cheek and back toward his shoulder) to see if your dog can turn his head properly. (And he gets the treat afterward. Fair's fair.)

 

Does your dog try to shake--like water in his coat--and stop suddenly? That's another sign of back trouble.

 

And a limp can be a sign of back trouble: the back is painful, so the dog modifies how he moves to try to avoid tweaking the painful spot. Tramadol is useful at the lower doses, but can cause some panting and anxiety-like symptoms at higher doses. Gabapentin takes a little while to take full effect. Around here, sanity has been saved by Methocarbamol, a muscle-relaxer. If your boy is tensing up muscles because of arthritis pain, methocarbamol will help with that, and it doesn't appear to interfere with other meds.

 

If I remember right, your boy limped on all kinds of surfaces, so that makes corns unlikely (but not impossible--check all his toes and pads, because lots of vets don't check for corns). But if your boy is panting (a typical pain response) when he's off his feet, then corns can't be the sole problem (unintentional pun--sorry). Also, make sure Vinnie's eating from a bowl that's raised some off the floor; his reluctance to eat could be a reaction to pain when he drops his head low. When he's reluctant to eat, will he eat if you hold the bowl up for him? Also, regarding a reluctance to eat--have his teeth been checked for problems? (There's a dental scheduled--right?) Chewing hard food could hurt enough to make him reluctant to eat. (It's entirely possible he's got a couple of minor things wrong that are combining to look like one major problem.)

 

X-rays are useful to check for arthritis. Spinal x-rays, I think, can indicate disk problems because while you won't necessarily see disks on the x-rays, you can see the spacing between the vertebrae. But if your vet isn't experienced with spine or joint issues, I'm not sure I'd push him for x-rays because I'm not sure he'd know what he's seeing. And make sure whatever vet you use has digital x-ray equipment so you'll get files that can be forwarded to an expert (the folks at Ohio State will do consultations for free).

 

If you do an NSAID (like Rimadyl or Meloxicam), talk to your vet about Pepcid or other stomach protection beause NSAIDs can cause stomach irritation. And while you want joint supplements, hold off on any fish oil supplement without your vet's approval. Fish oil acts as a blood thinner: that's something you might not want if Vinnie is due for a dental, and you might not want it on top of NSAIDs either.

Edited May 30, 2012 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest bernadette]

Hi KF, I do similar exercised with my horse. I just did the stretching for a treat (on both sides) with Vin, and he was extremely flexible on both sides (and he did get a treat on both sides) =)

 

When he shakes his coat, it is a full, satisfying shake, he just did it in the kitchen in anticipation of the treats.

 

I am not a vet but I gave it a shot... but I have put two fingers on either side of his spine and with slight pressure gone down to the tail, no flinching, yelling or any other signs of possible pain.

 

I have checked his pads/toes for anything unusual, I found nothing. He does eat from a raised feeder, he has since day one. He does have an appetite, he is just refusing to show much interest in his kibble. He did eat what was in his bowl today, it was gone when I came home from work to pick him up. That was a first since before the weekend.

 

I will definitely look more into the NSAID. The dental may have to wait a little bit more now. Between the cat, horse and Vinnie this last month, it's been a ROUGH time!!

[robinw]

Poor you. Poor Vinnie. This must be so frustrating. How is he now?

[Guest bernadette]

Right now he is resting comfortably, thank goodness. I am hoping for a more peaceful night.

Thank you for asking, Robin.

[KF_in_Georgia]

If he's showing no signs of spinal or neck issues, that may indicate that spinal x-rays are less likely to be of any use. That indicates that the limp may very well be the pain that made him pant so much.

 

Also: When I had a solo dog, she'd occasionally turn up her nose at her regular kibble in warm weather. Then I adopted Sam, the four-footed vacuum cleaner, and she never skipped a meal again. Your boy's appetite (or lack of it) worries me less than the inappropriate panting that may be indicating pain.

[Guest bernadette]

It's all very strange. This weekend he was so much worse- three(ish) weeks after the limp. Panting was the worst Sunday night- in a cool bedroom. So far so good tonight, thankfully. I am so glad he isn't having heart issues. But I am just as much confused and frustrated.

[Guest bernadette]

Does anyone know much about the Sleeping Respiratory Rate? I think I'm supposed to count how many inhales/exhales in one minute? I believe the vet tonight said around 30/per minute but that can't be right. I counted 15 in 60 seconds... ?

[sweetdogs]

Sorry about the vet bill but now you know his heart is fine. The reason we mentioned OSU is because your experience is SO common. My opinion is that unless a vet has greyhounds, been newly sprouted from OSU, has been through the wringer with some greyhound patients or worked at a track, when they say they are greyhound savvy, they're not. In many regards, greyhounds are not like other dogs & definitely not like most of the dogs that most vets see. The OSU Greyhound Health & Wellness program helps us greyhound owners bridge that gap with our vets.

 

The next thing I would do is really have those lumps diagnosed. No one can tell they're nothing without a FNA at a minimum.

Next I'd look into his neck/back. Vinnie is at the same age my boy was when his back problem started. I eventually did an MRI with no clear diagnosis so I managed him for the next 5 years & he did OK. From time to time he would have trouble settling, would pant & pace & be balky about his walks (although not his food). Meds didn't seem to help him but every dog is different. You need to document what's ailing Vinnie & make your vet put the pieces together. If he/she won't or can't, find another who will. And if he needs a dental, do it (& not a cheapie drive-by cleaning either). Eliminate as many variables as you can so you can settle on a treatment plan.

 

It's tough to watch these guys slow down.

[JJNg]

Does anyone know much about the Sleeping Respiratory Rate? I think I'm supposed to count how many inhales/exhales in one minute? I believe the vet tonight said around 30/per minute but that can't be right. I counted 15 in 60 seconds... ?

30 breaths/min is the max sleeping resp. rate you want to see before starting to get worried about an underlying problem. Many dogs are well below this. My greys are usually around 8-10 breaths/min when they're asleep.

[Guest bernadette]

Perfect, thank you. Cardiologist asked for me to watch that and let her know. We are between 11-15. Thanks!

[Guest bernadette]

I just spoke to the vet.. he said that the labs more detailed test on Vinnies blood shows that he is definitely hypothyroid (this will all be in laymans terms). Whatever stimulating hormone reacts to the low thyroid is definitely working, those levels are high, but it isn't making a difference. So, he'd like to put him on Soloxine and test him in a few weeks to check his levels.. He is also sending me Rimadyl. He would like to do a Lymes test... he didn't see the need the other day as Vinnie was not running a fever...

 

He also said he would not want to go ahead with a dental/general anesthesia until his thyroid is a little more under control.

Edited May 30, 2012 by bernadette