Hyper Aroused On Walks

[christinepi]

I have a question regarding getting Tracker's attention while we're walking. I walk him every morning up and down our rural road for 2 miles, where he's always responsive. Mid day, when I take him in the car and we walk in a few other places that he's familiar with (like in town, or on the bluffs, where a lot of owners walk their dogs), everything falls apart. He'll be so aroused and so above threshold the tastiest treats won't interest him. And this has nothing to do with spotting other dogs. Even when there's not a living creature to be seen in a 200 yard radius, his brain shuts down. This has me baffled.

 

(I got the "Calm to Click" book recently, I hope there are suggestions that will work for him; my concern is that I tried clicker training with him so many times, he knows what it means, but we never got to the "shaping" stage of anything because he never figured out that he could offer behaviors, besides, he always would get bored in a flash.)

 

Does anybody have other suggestions? Maybe not take him to these areas that excite him so (I imagine even without seeing actual other dogs, their smells alone drive him over threshold), though he loves them so, for a while, while I work on this?

 

I'm in the process of looking for a trainer who could help me with this.

[cleptogrey]

how young is tracker? does he get to really run off lead in a fenced in area? it sounds like that boy has a lot of steam to blow off. exercise, exercise, exercise and fun training comes to my mind when i read your post. it's baby steps and squencially building skills that will get you what you want...but after he has let off some steam. a good trainer and most definately group classes(so he will have to learn how to interact w/ all sorts of dogs) will most likely lead you in the right direction.

[christinepi]

how young is tracker? does he get to really run off lead in a fenced in area? it sounds like that boy has a lot of steam to blow off. exercise, exercise, exercise and fun training comes to my mind when i read your post. it's baby steps and squencially building skills that will get you what you want...but after he has let off some steam. a good trainer and most definately group classes(so he will have to learn how to interact w/ all sorts of dogs) will most likely lead you in the right direction.

 

He's 5 and we have the luxury of a 2 acre fenced in field, on which he runs serious zoomies every other day in addition to getting walked 2x 1.8 miles a day. So I don't think it's lack of exercise. And he doesn't pull at all--it's seems very much a mental thing, not a physical one.

 

But you're right in that classes and a trainer should help us both, and I'm trying to find that. We live so much in the boonies there's not much out there.

[MaryJane]

Does he get better or worse the longer he is exposed to the new environment? You mentioned "his brain shuts off" - not sure what that means....

 

How does he react in a pet store?

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

He can see 1/2 mile away. Just because you can't see something, doesn't mean he can't.

[christinepi]

I know about their sighting abilities, but this is clearly a general state he's in. He rarely focusses on anything in particular and is all over the place. But when I ask him to "wait", f.e, and he'll wait, he won't take the treat that he'd otherwise devour. He's just too tense. All he wants to do is keep moving, so that's what we do.

 

His attention span will come back up some once he's trotted for ca 20-30 minutes. But until then, no dice. I just have to wait until he's calmed down some before asking him to do anything. By "his brain shuts off" I mean he can't hear me or take treats. Maybe the better words to use are not that his brain shuts down but rather certain of his brain areas are overridden by impulses.

 

I don't take him into our local pet store because he barks at all the cats.

 

I'm sorry I'm not doing a very good job at explaining the situation. It is kind of hard to explain exactly what all goes on. Ultimately, he is quite leash reactive, so it would be nice to have a (reasonably) relaxed, clear thinking dog even at the beginning of these mid day walks so that, when another dog appears on the horizon, he can listen to me and take my treats so we can gradually build his threshold.

Edited March 20, 2012 by christinepi

[3greytjoys]

I just have to wait until he's calmed down some before asking him to do anything. By "his brain shuts off" I mean he can't hear me or take treats. Maybe the better words to use are not that his brain shuts down but rather certain of his brain areas are overridden by impulses.

This is a key difference from other breeds. As we know, Greyhounds are sighthounds bred to be "independent" hunters. Greyhounds as "racers" can't be distracted during a race by people in an audience, or anything in their surroundings. This is why Greyhounds don't always listen to humans calling them in an outside environment (or even encouraging them off their comfy bed). As an independent breed, they can also have selective hearing, and be very stubborn.

 

Your boy sounds hyper excited by the outside environmental stimulation. I would encourage you to keep taking him for walks to help eventually desensitize him.

 

Not sure where Tracker is walking in relation to you when he's on leash:

Is he walking out in front, or at your side?

How many feet away from you, and what is the leash length?

Do I recall correctly that Tracker is currently your only dog?

 

There is a great dog harness called "Sense-ation". Leash hooks from the front chest. I love it for training fosters, full of energy, just off the track. http://www.softouchconcepts.com/product/sense-ation-harness

 

 

I sometimes use a Martingale in conjunction with harness for a highly reactive hound, if I need to control their head and body.

 

When on leashed walks outside, distraction is your best friend.

Do not allow Tracker to fixate on deer, or other small critters.

When you feel he is zoning out of control, try directional heeling changes to help break his target vision, and help him realize he is being lead by you.

Keep your walking pace fast so he has no choice but to move with you (away from his target).

BTW, it doesn't have to be an animal that sets him off, could be a piece of litter, or leaf carried by the wind... anything that moves. (Some Greyhounds are so highly prey driven they will try to climb trees to get to a squirrel.)

 

Good to keep working with Tracker at home in his familiar environment for brief training sessions (5 minutes or less).

Have a pouch of different types of high value treats on you. (String cheese cubes, hot dog pieces, tripe, etc.)

Make it a fun game to "heel" on leash: His right shoulder next to your left thigh is standard.

Call his name in a happy voice: "Tracker, heel." (Give command once, and please don't jerk his neck while you're walking.)

Immediately begin walking in quick pace.

Leash should be short (since he should be at your left thigh), but do allow a little slack in leash. Try to avoid neck tension while walking (not jerking or choking).

Happily praise, praise, praise while he's walking politely next to you, and offer food treat rewards.

When giving treats, great to encourage eye contact by presenting his treat from between your eyes and his eyes.

Begin doing figure 8's, and directional changes to help him learn to stay close to your thigh while heeling. Also, practice stops and starts.

Keep training sessions short and fun. If you get frustrated, stop until another time.

(The reason it's important to keep him close to your side is for control and safety (his and yours).)

 

After hounds learn to heel, I begin teaching "heel right" or "heel left". This is a BIG help for the dogs to have a respectful heads up of which way they're expected to turn, and it makes walking safer for humans. (Our hounds begin making the turn the instant they hear me say heel left / heel right. They are so proud of themselves during their turns. )

 

I hope some of this helps. Good luck!

Edited March 20, 2012 by 3greytjoys

[christinepi]

I just have to wait until he's calmed down some before asking him to do anything. By "his brain shuts off" I mean he can't hear me or take treats. Maybe the better words to use are not that his brain shuts down but rather certain of his brain areas are overridden by impulses.

This is a key difference from other breeds. As we know, Greyhounds are sighthounds bred to be "independent" hunters. Greyhounds as "racers" can't be distracted during a race by people in an audience, or anything in their surroundings. This is why Greyhounds don't always listen to humans calling them in an outside environment (or even encouraging them off their comfy bed). As an independent breed, they can also have selective hearing, and be very stubborn.

 

Your boy sounds hyper excited by the outside environmental stimulation. I would encourage you to keep taking him for walks to help eventually desensitize him.

 

Not sure where Tracker is walking in relation to you when he's on leash:

Is he walking out in front, or at your side?

How many feet away from you, and what is the leash length?

Do I recall correctly that Tracker is currently your only dog?

 

There is a great dog harness called "Sense-ation". Leash hooks from the front chest. I love it for training fosters, full of energy, just off the track. http://www.softouchconcepts.com/product/sense-ation-harness

 

 

I sometimes use a Martingale in conjunction with harness for a highly reactive hound, if I need to control their head and body.

 

When on leashed walks outside, distraction is your best friend.

Do not allow Tracker to fixate on deer, or other small critters.

When you feel he is zoning out of control, try directional heeling changes to help break his target vision, and help him realize he is being lead by you.

Keep your walking pace fast so he has no choice but to move with you (away from his target).

BTW, it doesn't have to be an animal that sets him off, could be a piece of litter, or leaf carried by the wind... anything that moves. (Some Greyhounds are so highly prey driven they will try to climb trees to get to a squirrel.)

 

Good to keep working with Tracker at home in his familiar environment for brief training sessions (5 minutes or less).

Have a pouch of different types of high value treats on you. (String cheese cubes, hot dog pieces, tripe, etc.)

Make it a fun game to "heel" on leash: His right shoulder next to your left thigh is standard.

Call his name in a happy voice: "Tracker, heel." (Give command once, and please don't jerk his neck while you're walking.)

Immediately begin walking in quick pace.

Leash should be short (since he should be at your left thigh), but do allow a little slack in leash. Try to avoid neck tension while walking (not jerking or choking).

Happily praise, praise, praise while he's walking politely next to you, and offer food treat rewards.

When giving treats, great to encourage eye contact by presenting his treat from between your eyes and his eyes.

Begin doing figure 8's, and directional changes to help him learn to stay close to your thigh while heeling. Also, practice stops and starts.

Keep training sessions short and fun. If you get frustrated, stop until another time.

(The reason it's important to keep him close to your side is for control and safety (his and yours).)

 

After hounds learn to heel, I begin teaching "heel right" or "heel left". This is a BIG help for the dogs to have a respectful heads up of which way they're expected to turn, and it makes walking safer for humans. (Our hounds begin making the turn the instant they hear me say heel left / heel right. They are so proud of themselves during their turns. )

 

I hope some of this helps. Good luck!

 

Thanks for the suggestions. The situation is such that he's not fixating on anything at all (I know what he looks like when he's spotted something interesting--totally different picture. He'll freeze and stop moving, head held high. Whereas what I'm describing is the polar opposite--he's in constant motion and looking at the ground, mostly sniffing). He's literally so all over the place that he would be almost blind to anything. He doesn't do this when out in the woods at home, only on said bluffs.

 

But your suggestions are still good ones because they'll help with any unfocussed dog. And I've already started him on heel work. But one question I have is: this harness you suggest should be connected to the collar, right, at least initially? How do you do it with a grey, whose neck is a mile long and whose collar is hours from the chest bone ring? Get a coupler?

[Guest mariah]

We had a similar problem with Gussie. Loves other dogs, to the extent that just smelling them would send her off into her own little world and she wasn't receptive to me at all. The obedience classes have helped enormously, because they've accustomed her to working around (and not being able to interact with) other dogs in close quarters. Also, having dogs to run and play with off-leash is a good idea if you aren't doing that already.

Edited March 20, 2012 by mariah

[Brandiandwe]

Can you get Tracker absolutely exhausted before taking him out to eh bluffs a few times? So he's tired and the edge is taken off so that he's less reactive? I've found this helps with hyper-stimulating situations - I don't take my girls to greyhound playgroup without walking them in the morning their normal walk, and they don't go to obedience without thorough exercise either.

[christinepi]

Can you get Tracker absolutely exhausted before taking him out to eh bluffs a few times? So he's tired and the edge is taken off so that he's less reactive? I've found this helps with hyper-stimulating situations - I don't take my girls to greyhound playgroup without walking them in the morning their normal walk, and they don't go to obedience without thorough exercise either.

 

I definitely can do that. Good idea. And I finally contacted the trainer who does the obedience classes here in town, but haven't heard back yet on whether she'd accept Tracker doing "background" work.

[muddgirl]

Yeah, this sounds pretty similar to Batman, our high-energy 2.5 year old greyhound. Even if it's a walk he's really familiar with, but it happens to be a windier day. Sometimes I will jog with him for several minutes at the beginning of walks, like "Oh, you want to run? Let's run." It seems kind of silly that we have to tire him out before we walk, but that's how it goes. In clicker training there's this idea that a dog has to be 'in the game', and sometimes in new environments or if they have a lot of energy, a dog just isn't going to be 'in the game.' But it seems to me that getting in the game is something that dogs can practice, so I think obedience training will definitely help with that (it took Batman probably about 2 weeks of obedience training to figure out, "Hey! I get a treat for doing the RIGHT thing!")

 

Lucky for us, he is not leash reactive at all, just balky, at the sight of cats and dogs.

Edited March 20, 2012 by muddgirl

[3greytjoys]

I'm having a little trouble learning enough details of Tracker's specific problem behaviors. As I understand Tracker is "leash reactive" (without his behavior details), he zones out human's voice and treats, and "falls apart" seeing other dogs at the bluffs. Your last post mentioned that he's sniffing the ground too much.

 

My original reply still holds true. Whether his focal or scent interest is the ground or other animals. You are his leader, if you don't want him sniffing a particular area during the walk. Don't allow him that much excess leash. Keep him next to your side, shorten his available leash (so he can't get his head to the ground), and walk at a rapid pace. (Be very careful to not to jerk or choke his neck). Leash does not need tension, but it does need to be short enough to keep his head up. (Hold excess leash in your hand.) He will quickly learn to keep his head up. The more he learns that you are walking him (vs. him walking you), he will stop trying so hard to keep his head to the ground, and he will join you on the walk. Later, long after being trained to heel very well (good walking habits solidified), Tracker could be allowed more leash (if you desire).

 

All dogs enjoy sniffing and leaving pee-mail... that's how animals communicate so they need *some* sniffing during their walks. You can decide when and where to allow him plenty of extra sniffing time.

(Example: We try not to allow our hounds to use people's groomed front lawns as a dog potty (it's illegal here anyway). Instead, we "power walk" past those lawns, but we do allow dogs plenty of time to sniff, mark, potty at the ends of short neighborhood streets, in fields, or a park. This way, they get needed exercise and doggie scent stimulation that makes them happy.)

I realize Tracker has his own fenced 2 acre personal park at home (lucky boy!), so extra walking "exercise" may not be as important for him, but if you want an easier dog to walk enjoyably, I'd encourage you to work on heeling while gently, positively, happily teaching and rewarding Tracker.

 

If Tracker is being too much of a handful for you during mid-day walks, I agree with others to tire him out a little more before attempting those walks. It's common for any dog to be happy to see another dog, especially if they don't have a canine playmate at home, but they can be easily trained to be polite when they see other dogs.

 

Bottom line: Dogs do what works. Tracker is getting his own reward out of his behavior. It's up to humans to gently redirect and reward "pet" acceptable behavior. Dogs are learning from us in every interaction every day. It's up to us to ensure each interaction builds trust while molding new pet acceptable behavior.

 

To answer your question: When I use a Martingale and a "Sense-ation" harness (same time) on a new hound, I use 2 separate leashes to control the collar separately from the harness.

 

Good luck. I hope the trainer works out well for you. Please be careful to ensure the trainer only uses positive training methods. Greyhounds are super sensitive, intelligent, and they respond well to very gentle methods. Great to catch (and reward) them for doing something right naturally.

Edited March 21, 2012 by 3greytjoys

[christinepi]

I'm having a little trouble learning enough details of Tracker's specific problem behaviors. As I understand Tracker is "leash reactive" (without his behavior details), he zones out human's voice and treats, and "falls apart" seeing other dogs at the bluffs. Your last post mentioned that he's sniffing the ground too much.

 

My original reply still holds true. Whether his focal or scent interest is the ground or other animals. You are his leader, if you don't want him sniffing a particular area during the walk. Don't allow him that much excess leash. Keep him next to your side, shorten his available leash (so he can't get his head to the ground), and walk at a rapid pace. (Be very careful to not to jerk or choke his neck). Leash does not need tension, but it does need to be short enough to keep his head up. (Hold excess leash in your hand.) He will quickly learn to keep his head up. The more he learns that you are walking him (vs. him walking you), he will stop trying so hard to keep his head to the ground, and he will join you on the walk. Later, long after being trained to heel very well (good walking habits solidified), Tracker could be allowed more leash (if you desire).

 

All dogs enjoy sniffing and leaving pee-mail... that's how animals communicate so they need *some* sniffing during their walks. You can decide when and where to allow him plenty of extra sniffing time.

(Example: We try not to allow our hounds to use people's groomed front lawns as a dog potty (it's illegal here anyway). Instead, we "power walk" past those lawns, but we do allow dogs plenty of time to sniff, mark, potty at the ends of short neighborhood streets, in fields, or a park. This way, they get needed exercise and doggie scent stimulation that makes them happy.)

I realize Tracker has his own fenced 2 acre personal park at home (lucky boy!), so extra walking "exercise" may not be as important for him, but if you want an easier dog to walk enjoyably, I'd encourage you to work on heeling while gently, positively, happily teaching and rewarding Tracker.

 

If Tracker is being too much of a handful for you during mid-day walks, I agree with others to tire him out a little more before attempting those walks. It's common for any dog to be happy to see another dog, especially if they don't have a canine playmate at home, but they can be easily trained to be polite when they see other dogs.

 

Bottom line: Dogs do what works. Tracker is getting his own reward out of his behavior. It's up to humans to gently redirect and reward "pet" acceptable behavior. Dogs are learning from us in every interaction every day. It's up to us to ensure each interaction builds trust while molding new pet acceptable behavior.

 

To answer your question: When I use a Martingale and a "Sense-ation" harness (same time) on a new hound, I use 2 separate leashes to control the collar separately from the harness.

 

Good luck. I hope the trainer works out well for you. Please be careful to ensure the trainer only uses positive training methods. Greyhounds are super sensitive, intelligent, and they respond well to very gentle methods. Great to catch (and reward) them for doing something right naturally.

 

I think you're right on. He's walking me, rather than the other way around, which probably led him to be so discombobulated at times. Also, I started paying much closer attention to my own physical/emotional state recently and while I FELT relaxed, superficially, my body sure as heck wasn't, and my breathing wasn't fluid accordingly. So I've got tons to work with here, and the last 2 days I insisted on a moderate amount of heeling in our close to home area, where he's relaxed, and things have gone better than I expected. So I'll keep this up, and also keep focussing on my own tensions and breathing, and see where this will lead!

 

Oh and believe me, I'll be super picky about the trainer. I'm a clicker training and positive reinforcement devotee!

[3greytjoys]

I'm having a little trouble learning enough details of Tracker's specific problem behaviors. As I understand Tracker is "leash reactive" (without his behavior details), he zones out human's voice and treats, and "falls apart" seeing other dogs at the bluffs. Your last post mentioned that he's sniffing the ground too much.

 

My original reply still holds true. Whether his focal or scent interest is the ground or other animals. You are his leader, if you don't want him sniffing a particular area during the walk. Don't allow him that much excess leash. Keep him next to your side, shorten his available leash (so he can't get his head to the ground), and walk at a rapid pace. (Be very careful to not to jerk or choke his neck). Leash does not need tension, but it does need to be short enough to keep his head up. (Hold excess leash in your hand.) He will quickly learn to keep his head up. The more he learns that you are walking him (vs. him walking you), he will stop trying so hard to keep his head to the ground, and he will join you on the walk. Later, long after being trained to heel very well (good walking habits solidified), Tracker could be allowed more leash (if you desire).

 

All dogs enjoy sniffing and leaving pee-mail... that's how animals communicate so they need *some* sniffing during their walks. You can decide when and where to allow him plenty of extra sniffing time.

(Example: We try not to allow our hounds to use people's groomed front lawns as a dog potty (it's illegal here anyway). Instead, we "power walk" past those lawns, but we do allow dogs plenty of time to sniff, mark, potty at the ends of short neighborhood streets, in fields, or a park. This way, they get needed exercise and doggie scent stimulation that makes them happy.)

I realize Tracker has his own fenced 2 acre personal park at home (lucky boy!), so extra walking "exercise" may not be as important for him, but if you want an easier dog to walk enjoyably, I'd encourage you to work on heeling while gently, positively, happily teaching and rewarding Tracker.

 

If Tracker is being too much of a handful for you during mid-day walks, I agree with others to tire him out a little more before attempting those walks. It's common for any dog to be happy to see another dog, especially if they don't have a canine playmate at home, but they can be easily trained to be polite when they see other dogs.

 

Bottom line: Dogs do what works. Tracker is getting his own reward out of his behavior. It's up to humans to gently redirect and reward "pet" acceptable behavior. Dogs are learning from us in every interaction every day. It's up to us to ensure each interaction builds trust while molding new pet acceptable behavior.

 

To answer your question: When I use a Martingale and a "Sense-ation" harness (same time) on a new hound, I use 2 separate leashes to control the collar separately from the harness.

 

Good luck. I hope the trainer works out well for you. Please be careful to ensure the trainer only uses positive training methods. Greyhounds are super sensitive, intelligent, and they respond well to very gentle methods. Great to catch (and reward) them for doing something right naturally.

 

I think you're right on. He's walking me, rather than the other way around, which probably led him to be so discombobulated at times. Also, I started paying much closer attention to my own physical/emotional state recently and while I FELT relaxed, superficially, my body sure as heck wasn't, and my breathing wasn't fluid accordingly. So I've got tons to work with here, and the last 2 days I insisted on a moderate amount of heeling in our close to home area, where he's relaxed, and things have gone better than I expected. So I'll keep this up, and also keep focussing on my own tensions and breathing, and see where this will lead!

 

Oh and believe me, I'll be super picky about the trainer. I'm a clicker training and positive reinforcement devotee!

 

Great that you're realizing that your positive body language and gentle leadership plays a role in Tracker's behavior.

 

Just remember, when teaching Tracker to heel next to your thigh that you don't need tension on Tracker's neck. Important to allow a few limited inches of slack in the shorter length of leash. (Careful that it's not too many inches of slack; his head needs to stay up to prevent his constant ground sniffing.) If he begins to pull (causing leash tension), try directional changes or a figure 8 to help him learn to watch/follow you walking nicely next to your left thigh. (Or you could stop in place every. single. time he begins to pull (if in relaxed setting) until he learns to stop pulling. That works too but it takes tons of human patience.) It's good that he's not much of a puller anyway. He should catch on quickly.

 

As a side note: Tracker may beneft from mind stimulation games like hide and seek inside, or hiding toys for him to find in his yard, or hiding treats in dog puzzles.

 

Have fun with whatever you decide to do!

[Guest Giselle]

Forget this "leadership" and "respect" and "taking charge" stuff, for a moment. Also, greyhounds are dogs. They are animals capable of learning, just like any other breed. "Selective hearing" does not exist, in my book. It is merely a human euphemism for an overly stressed/excited animal's inability to focus on a handler. Indeed, ALL of your issues actually boil down to one single point:

- Your dog is stressed.

 

Stressed animals cannot focus. Physiologically, it is impossible. Stressed animals ramp up their corticosteroid levels and the energy that your dog needs goes towards: keeping his muscles tense to fight/flight, increasing his heart rate, increasing his blood pressure, shutting down non-necessary functions, like learning, memory retention, and hunger. So, just looking at it from a physiological standpoint, your dog is actually incapable of learning, incapable of feeling hunger, incapable of responding to training when he is stressed. Stress can be excitement or fear or any/all of that!

 

This is why you cannot shape a beginner dog in distracting environments, and you have to start at home in a quiet, familiar room. I highly recommend you put everything else on the backburner for now and ONLY focus on shaping at home. Creating a dog who knows how to offer behaviors is the singlemost important tool in our arsenal for eliminating stress, teaching impulse-control, reducing reactivity, and creating focus. For routinely stressed or reactive animals, shaping behaviors is absolutely necessary and sufficient to modify their underlying emotions. And, once you modify the underlying emotion, you will eliminate the symptoms. If your dog is calm, he will not be stressed. If he is focused, he will not fixate on other animals. Thus, the goal is to fix the underlying emotion.

 

Go back to Step 1 and try to shape every behavior. Tips: Don't feed your dog his meals. Instead, use his regular kibble as treats and work with him throughout the day. This is how he will earn his food. Be sure that your shaping skills are accurate! Shaping is only effective when the handler is well-versed in what criteria s/he is looking for, in accurate timing of the click/food delivery, in knowing when to push forward for more behaviors and when to keep reinforcing old ones. Shaping is not easy nor necessarily intuitive, and I highly recommend finding a trainer to help you in person. It's a skill that takes a lot of practice for the human before it even translates to the animal.

 

ETA: Christinepi, I noticed you are in the Bay Area, too. Would you like to meet up? I am in Berkeley and can provide in-person help, as well as trainer recommendations. Please PM or e-mail me!

Edited March 24, 2012 by Giselle

[Fruitycake]

Listen to Giselle! I have learned much from reading her posts.

I can sympathize with your "tuning out" dog. Monty used to be really bad. Sometimes I would just have to stop and sit down and wait for him to even remember that I was out there (this was on night walks, so not too much concern about others coming along, and he wasn't intensively reactive, just attention-deficit-dog because of everything).

 

It took Monty a while to realize that he could offer behaviors for treats, too. We had our regular training times, but if he knew there was food anywhere he would look at the food and not pay attention to offering anything. It is a bit of a struggle to get that light-bulb moment, because I had to start so incrementally small that it seemed I was first click-rewarding for an eyebrow flicker or a blink.

 

 

[christinepi]

Listen to Giselle! I have learned much from reading her posts.

I can sympathize with your "tuning out" dog. Monty used to be really bad. Sometimes I would just have to stop and sit down and wait for him to even remember that I was out there (this was on night walks, so not too much concern about others coming along, and he wasn't intensively reactive, just attention-deficit-dog because of everything).

 

It took Monty a while to realize that he could offer behaviors for treats, too. We had our regular training times, but if he knew there was food anywhere he would look at the food and not pay attention to offering anything. It is a bit of a struggle to get that light-bulb moment, because I had to start so incrementally small that it seemed I was first click-rewarding for an eyebrow flicker or a blink.

 

That's good to know. I may have really set the bar too high. They always make this look so easy in these videos, and the dogs so often do offer interesting, creative movements. I just know that once he's had that light bulb moment this could really open up new worlds! It's just so hard to find a trainer who's experienced with shaping where I live. We're kind of cut off. But I'll give this another try myself, for now.

[Guest Giselle]

I hope Kim has contacted you back! I'm sorry I don't have many other recommendations for that side of the Bay Area. My experiences are very skewed towards the East Bay.

 

Also, don't feel discouraged about shaping! Shaping is a difficult skill, and the learning curve, in my experience, is very steep. This is my 3rd time teaching applied animal behavior, and my students are required to attend at least 2-3 handling workshops. At the end, they still struggle because it is a technical skill that requires a lot of practice. (I wish I could force them to do workshops every week, but that's unreasonable) It's hard! So, I'd really recommend working with a trainer and, perhaps, learning with a dog who is more dramatic with its shaping. If you're ever in the Berkeley area, Ivy is a great demo dog because she makes really dramatic movements

 

P.S. In the meantime, try shaping a friend or a co-worker or your significant other. It is the same concept, same principles. It's even faster (IF your skills are good!). You can use coins for reward or just applause. It sounds like a simple exercise, but you'd be amazed! Some "tricks" that have worked well for people: spin around, put your hands in your pockets, jump over an object, object discrimination (i.e. of a pile of mixed color folders, pick only the blue one), put a toy in a basket, .. They're fun exercises hehe

[christinepi]

I hope Kim has contacted you back! I'm sorry I don't have many other recommendations for that side of the Bay Area. My experiences are very skewed towards the East Bay.

 

Also, don't feel discouraged about shaping! Shaping is a difficult skill, and the learning curve, in my experience, is very steep. This is my 3rd time teaching applied animal behavior, and my students are required to attend at least 2-3 handling workshops. At the end, they still struggle because it is a technical skill that requires a lot of practice. (I wish I could force them to do workshops every week, but that's unreasonable) It's hard! So, I'd really recommend working with a trainer and, perhaps, learning with a dog who is more dramatic with its shaping. If you're ever in the Berkeley area, Ivy is a great demo dog because she makes really dramatic movements

 

P.S. In the meantime, try shaping a friend or a co-worker or your significant other. It is the same concept, same principles. It's even faster (IF your skills are good!). You can use coins for reward or just applause. It sounds like a simple exercise, but you'd be amazed! Some "tricks" that have worked well for people: spin around, put your hands in your pockets, jump over an object, object discrimination (i.e. of a pile of mixed color folders, pick only the blue one), put a toy in a basket, .. They're fun exercises hehe

 

Yes, we've communicated, but she won't come down this far south. We left it that she would check for someone who might be closer to me.

 

I'll try the shaping again. Maybe I'll come up to Berkeley, but it just seems such a long trip at this point... I did the shaping exercise with humans, actually, and it was great fun and helped with what to look for. I also did it with two horses, one that was fairly quick to get it, the other not so much (he also always tried to bulldoze me for the treats, which Tracker at least won't do), but I taught both of them to pick up a dog toy and bring it to me. What they had in common was this intense interest in the treats. But even though Tracker is plenty food motivated, it's as if the paying attention is just too much of a bother, as in "what's the point?". But I haven't given up yet, because I know it's up to me, by lowering the criteria, to keep his interest up. Thanks for your encouragement!

Edited March 28, 2012 by christinepi

[Guest Giselle]

How's it going? Any new or refined free-shaped behaviors? Update!

[christinepi]

How's it going? Any new or refined free-shaped behaviors? Update!

 

Well, 3 days ago I pulled the egg carton back out and sure enough, he immediately started nudging it around. So he did that a few times, as in the past, I c&t'd each time, and then, as in the past, he lies down (because all this nudging standing on your own 4 feet--3 times--is soooo exhausting). Then he can't do much else, of course, because only his head is available to do things. So he looks at me, expectantly, lips quivering. I thought, ok, I'll wait a bit. He quivered some more and then turned his head to the left. C&t. He ate the treat, did the turn again, c&t. He did this maybe 6 or 7 times in a row, I c&t each time. Then he got stuck again and looked at me, quiveringly. I waited a bit, and he nudged the carton again. I c&t'd that. And so it went, alternating between nudging and head turn. Today was the third session, and what he does mostly seems to repeat itself. He offered fewer head turns this time, though. And half way in, while waiting for him to do something, he looked at me and wouldn't do anything, so I decided to reward ANYTHING in the way of movement, even just an ear flick or an eyeball roll. So I did that. I don't know yet whether the light bulb has gone off, sometimes I think it has, but other times, when he just stares at me and does nothing after I had just given him 10 treats in a row for head turns, I think he's not getting anything. I'll keep trying... any suggestions?

 

One thing though, today on our walk I took treats with me he's never had from me before (turkey burger). And man, that made a difference in getting him to actually stop tuning me out for some moments when staring at a dog in the distance. He actually gobbled the treats up hastily (because he was still above threshold), but at least--and last-- I could reach him! I also offered those same treats while he was just clearly aroused even when no dogs where present at all and I asked for his attention, and indeed, he was able to interrupt his own aroused state of mind for long enough to eat them. I did a few attention calls in a row and he "came together" quite nicely, meaning he understood that I wanted him to tune out the world momentarily for me until released.

Edited April 2, 2012 by christinepi

[Guest Giselle]

One thing though, today on our walk I took treats with me he's never had from me before (turkey burger). And man, that made a difference in getting him to actually stop tuning me out for some moments when staring at a dog in the distance. He actually gobbled the treats up hastily (because he was still above threshold), but at least--and last-- I could reach him! I also offered those same treats while he was just clearly aroused even when no dogs where present at all and I asked for his attention, and indeed, he was able to interrupt his own aroused state of mind for long enough to eat them. I did a few attention calls in a row and he "came together" quite nicely, meaning he understood that I wanted him to tune out the world momentarily for me until released.

That's AWESOME!!! Yes, that's exactly what we want!

 

As for free shaping, hmm. Is it possible for you to get a video of a typical shaping session? The best video would be from your point of view, like having the camera look down at the dog from your eye-level. I'm thinking there might be some subtle things being missed. Whenever I'm teaching shaping to someone, even those who have been training for a while, there's always a little something that could be tweaked or timing that is a little off. When people videotape me, even, I see small flaws in my execution. Aside from that, though, it sounds like you had started shaping a head turn but then rewarded for a novel behavior (nudging). This sounds like it may have confused your pup, which is why he stopped progressing w/ the head turns, at least. So, I would suggest that, once you've got a growing behavior, stick to it and keep amplifying it. Ignore the rest. So, instead of alternating between nudging and head turning, focus on one and amplify that by itself. Hopefully, that will give you some more dramatic behaviors Keep going at it! I'm excited to hear about more progress!

 

(Also, would a video help? I can grab a few this weekend)

[christinepi]

I can get my husband to video a session. My main question is: what do I do when he stops offering me anything, as he does all the time.

 

You refer to it "growing" behavior--I wouldn't describe it as growing yet, because he's so random about it. It's almost like superstitious behavior, not behavior that he arrived at by making a choice, even after the 10th repetition, because he always eventually stops offering it even when being plied with treats. And then he just stares at me. And then, when nothing further happens, he puts his head down and goes to sleep because he thinks the fun is over. This is where the video will help, I guess. It's funny. My horses thought this was so exciting, and my dog goes, Yeah, whatever...

 

If you have a video of shaping a dog that was really slow to shape, that would be great. In the meantime, I'll try to get my husband's help.

 

As far as the reactivity goes: yes, I'm quite happy with the "Turkey Burger Effect". I've done it some more recently, and while there is the occasional back slide when unexpected things happen beyond our control, I think there has been overall improvement.