Sudden Growling, And Not Just On His Bed...

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DH and I are new greyhound owners, just six weeks. Chase has been an angel, a truly 5 star dog. He is a 5.5 yo retired racer from Florida. He weighed 84 pounds at last weigh in. He is affectionate, playful, friendly and relatively active. He is does well at the VAGA meet and greet day with the other dogs at our local Petco.

Two weeks ago, my husband tried to take a bully stick away from him, although I can't remember why he needed to take it. Chase growled at my husband. He had his post-adoption vet appointment two days later. When asked about the growling, the vet simply told us bully sticks should now be off limits, end of story.

Last week we had a dog trainer come in and give us training lessons. She worked with Chase for about 2 hours. He now comes when called (yay!) and only very rarely tries to jump on us. However some of his other behavior has changed. Since training took place, he has started growling at us on a frequent basis, always when he is on his bed in the family room.

Just today he has growled three times:

1) almost 8 year old DD was sitting at dining room table eating toast. She got up and left her spot to retrieve something from kitchen. Chase bounded into the dining room and growled at DD, and stole one piece of toast right off of the plate, took it back down to his bed.

2) almost 8 year old DD approached Chase's bed. He looked at her (made eye contact) and growled. He was neither playing nor eating anyything at the time.

3) almost 6 year old DD was eating a ham sandwich at the dining table. She saw he was coming and pushed her plate into the center of the table as he is a table pest (another training issue). Chase put his nose on the table, and growled at her.

So, should we be worried? Is this normal behavior? I have read through quite a few of the growling threads, and I do see the value of growling as a communication tool, but the growling at the table is much different, in my mind than growling from his safety zone bed.

Insight please.

 

[JohnF]

You need a differnt dog trainer to call in asap if the first one can't fix this. Chase is testing his boundaries and getting away with being disrespectful. If you get a bullystick incident again just trade up with something else so that you get the item back (you don't lose face).

I think you need to teach the dog a visual sign that means 'back off- I'm the boss"

[Guest BikeBookBread]

1323983410[/url]' post='5111162']

You need a differnt dog trainer to call in asap if the first one can't fix this. Chase is testing his boundaries and getting away with being disrespectful. If you get a bullystick incident again just trade up with something else so that you get the item back (you don't lose face).

I think you need to teach the dog a visual sign that means 'back off- I'm the boss"

 

When you say a visual sign, do you mean something such as a hand signal rather than a voiced reprimand?

[Batmom]

Re the bully stick: Do a search on "trading up" in this forum and you'll find some instructions for teaching him to respond nicely to a "drop it!" command. Usually pretty easy to teach.

 

Re nosing around and growling around the table: Here I teach table manners. For us, that means no nose shall pass over the edge of the table. A firm "Aah!" and a hand slapped on the table edge, or for more impressionable dogs a flat palm facing the nose and "Back ...." + "good dog!" when the dog backs up. If your boy is acting like a butt I might keep him out of the eating area altogether while the kids are eating, until you've had a chance to train those manners. I know some folks who teach their dogs to stay out of the kitchen and/or eating area altogether unless invited in.

 

Growling from bed when kids approach: This one is tougher and my response depends on how close she was. If a couple feet away, that is more problematic. If she was right next to him, I would start by teaching the kids not to approach the dog when he is on his bed unless you are there together. Then when he is wide awake and receptive you can work on child approaching, saying dog's name, dropping a delicious treat, and walking on by.

[kudzu]

Everything you've described in relation to the growling sounds much like resource guarding. Usually that is a workable thing but it depends on the dog & the families involved. Quick suggestions as a safety measure for the present while you work on training:

 

- Crate him with the kids are eating.

- Crate him when he is eating or has a chewie of any sort.

- Crate him when you are not supervising him.

- When he is out of the crate keep a short, flat, light leash or line on him so you can grab it or stop on it to prevent him if he heads for something he shouldn't.

- Kids & dogs can only be together when adults are present.

 

Remember that the growling is not the real problem. It is Chase's emotional & physiological state that matters & what you can do to alter that. The growl is just a warning sign that there could be danger if things progress in this direction. So take it as the red flag it is, & it seems you are doing exactly that. The goal is not to correct the growl but to help him understand what is expected of him and to feel comfortable in his home so he doesn't feel the need to growl. Training, supervision, some human behavior modification & time may be all that's needed to do that. I, however, am not the one to give much more advice on handling resource guarding with children around. I've no experience there.

 

This may not be related to the training session at all. Yet since you've correllated the behavior change with the recent training session I would like to ask this. What sorts of things were covered in that session? What type of equipment & training methods were used? What sort of "homework" have you been doing since? Have the children been involved in the training?

 

Others will chime in as well. Likely already have since I started writing this. Welcome to GT & hang in there. Some rough spots are not unusual when adopting a dog.

[Guest BikeBookBread]

1323984245[/url]' post='5111183']

Re the bully stick: Do a search on "trading up" in this forum and you'll find some instructions for teaching him to respond nicely to a "drop it!" command. Usually pretty easy to teach.

 

Re nosing around and growling around the table: Here I teach table manners. For us, that means no nose shall pass over the edge of the table. A firm "Aah!" and a hand slapped on the table edge, or for more impressionable dogs a flat palm facing the nose and "Back ...." + "good dog!" when the dog backs up. If your boy is acting like a butt I might keep him out of the eating area altogether while the kids are eating, until you've had a chance to train those manners. I know some folks who teach their dogs to stay out of the kitchen and/or eating area altogether unless invited in.

 

Growling from bed when kids approach: This one is tougher and my response depends on how close she was. If a couple feet away, that is more problematic. If she was right next to him, I would start by teaching the kids not to approach the dog when he is on his bed unless you are there together. Then when he is wide awake and receptive you can work on child approaching, saying dog's name, dropping a delicious treat, and walking on by.

 

Great hints. Thanks so much.

DD almost 8 was only 1 foot from the edge of his bed, however, he is so big that we set up two large beds in the corner of our family room. He was on the back bed, a good 6 feet away from DD.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Why are you allowing an 8 year old to approach your hound when he is on his bed?

[Guest BikeBookBread]

Why are you allowing an 8 year old to approach your hound when he is on his bed?

 

Given the configuration of our home, it is impossible for her to *not* approach his bed in order to enter the room.

[kudzu]

Given the configuration of our home, it is impossible for her to *not* approach his bed in order to enter the room.

If you've not done so already, ask the children not to look directly at him when going by his bed. Same goes for the adults. Is it set up so people can move about without approaching the bed face on. If not, try to walk by with your body turned slightly away. If you need to move to him do it in a somewhat arced route. Its less challenging & stressful for him.

 

Mind you, we don't walk around my house this way but we have done it temporarily for some dogs until they have adjusted & learned the new, um, protocol I guess you could say.

[Guest BikeBookBread]

Everything you've described in relation to the growling sounds much like resource guarding. Usually that is a workable thing but it depends on the dog & the families involved. Quick suggestions as a safety measure for the present while you work on training:

 

- Crate him with the kids are eating.

- Crate him when he is eating or has a chewie of any sort.

- Crate him when you are not supervising him.

- When he is out of the crate keep a short, flat, light leash or line on him so you can grab it or stop on it to prevent him if he heads for something he shouldn't.

- Kids & dogs can only be together when adults are present.

 

Remember that the growling is not the real problem. It is Chase's emotional & physiological state that matters & what you can do to alter that. The growl is just a warning sign that there could be danger if things progress in this direction. So take it as the red flag it is, & it seems you are doing exactly that. The goal is not to correct the growl but to help him understand what is expected of him and to feel comfortable in his home so he doesn't feel the need to growl. Training, supervision, some human behavior modification & time may be all that's needed to do that. I, however, am not the one to give much more advice on handling resource guarding with children around. I've no experience there.

 

This may not be related to the training session at all. Yet since you've correllated the behavior change with the recent training session I would like to ask this. What sorts of things were covered in that session? What type of equipment & training methods were used? What sort of "homework" have you been doing since? Have the children been involved in the training?

 

Others will chime in as well. Likely already have since I started writing this. Welcome to GT & hang in there. Some rough spots are not unusual when adopting a dog.

 

 

As to the growling training, our dog trainer has me feeding Chase while he is on his bed from my hand. She also has us doing slow approach, a calling of his name, and then a treat offering when he responds, moving ever and ever closer to his bed -- closer and closer over days, not hours.

 

For general training, she has us keeping him leashed in the house (when supervised), in case we need to guide him out of a situation wherein we don't wish him to be. She is also an advocate of a quick yank on the leash for behavior correction. I do understand that there is MUCH mixed feelings about this method. Please, no drama on this particular point. We aren't married to it, nor are we against it. However, the primary form of training she advocates is positive reinforcement and correction NOT disciplinary. The leash yank is to be used as a last resort.

 

 

We are doing limited fetch games (he loves fetch), calling games, bubble games and laser pointer games (DH and I ONLY!!!) etc.

 

Given the configuration of our home, it is impossible for her to *not* approach his bed in order to enter the room.

If you've not done so already, ask the children not to look directly at him when going by his bed. Same goes for the adults. Is it set up so people can move about without approaching the bed face on. If not, try to walk by with your body turned slightly away. If you need to move to him do it in a somewhat arced route. Its less challenging & stressful for him.

 

Mind you, we don't walk around my house this way but we have done it temporarily for some dogs until they have adjusted & learned the new, um, protocol I guess you could say.

 

Helpful suggestion. We have told the girls to only approach him from the side, as much as is practical, of course (he is a moving target, of course ). We also do not approach him head on. For the time being, we have also told them to let him come to them rather than them go up to him, as much as possible... until this is sorted out, that is.

[kudzu]

All except the leash correction fit with a logical approach. Not offering any drama on the leash pull. Am trying to understand what sort of situation it is used in. Last resort as in no other way to get him away from something or someone? Or is it some other sort of last resort? You don't want him associating people, especially children, with any punitive actions. Or at least do your absolute best to avoid that.

 

... (he is a moving target, of course ).

Oh, especially in the beginning. Somehow I seemed to have missed that part in the books where it says Greys will be the most inquisitive, curious, gotta check everything out dogs you will ever in your life meet or own.

[Guest BikeBookBread]

All except the leash correction fit with a logical approach. Not offering any drama on the leash pull. Am trying to understand what sort of situation it is used in. Last resort as in no other way to get him away from something or someone? Or is it some other sort of last resort? You don't want him associating people, especially children, with any punitive actions. Or at least do your absolute best to avoid that.

 

... (he is a moving target, of course ).

Oh, especially in the beginning. Somehow I seemed to have missed that part in the books where it says Greys will be the most inquisitive, curious, gotta check everything out dogs you will ever in your life meet or own.

 

We read, researched, thought, prayed and angsted over this decision for a long, long time. We do realize that many organizations will not adopt out to homes with children. I am a stay at home mom, and for this year, I am homeschooling my 8 year old (due to some issues at her school last year), so I am always home... Being able to give Chase the attention he really needed was very important to us.

 

So far, we have learned that Chase loves socks, underwear (especially expensive women's undergarments TMI I KNOW!!!) and Pillow Pets. Interestingly enough, he is NOT interested in the Christmas tree. We love his nosiness... it is endearing.

 

Thanks for your insightful replies...

 

And oh, yeah, on topic:

 

As to leash correction, I believe she advocated using it when he flat out refused to obey, for example, if decided going into his gated area was an absolute no-go. I have not used it once. I don't believe DH has either.

[Guest jbbuzby]

On top of all these good suggestions, I'd have a squirt bottle handy should he go out of his way to be confrontational (for example, if he jumps on you, or growls at you when you approach YOUR couch that he happens to be laying on, etc. You really should look into the book "How to be the pack leader: and have your dog love you for it" by Patricia McConnell, or even "The Loved Dog" by Tamar Geller. Both of these books outline a clear, yet gentle program in how to become the boss in your home. From what you describe, your dog clearly does not see your family this way and is trying to see how far he can get with it.

 

And yes, do find another dog trainer if they are unable to help you with these issues. You guys are new owners, but an experienced dog trainer should be able to instruct you on the ways of becoming the one in charge in your home. If you don't take control of this now, it can (and will) get more severe.

[krissy]

The only thing I will say is that I do not like laser pointers as a "toy" for dogs and cats. It is an object which they can never catch and is a point of frustration for some... even escalating to psychiatric issues. I've seen dogs and cats with "OCD", star-gazing, and fly catching type behaviours resulting from use of laser pointers. Personally I prefer something the animal can actually catch. The laser pointer may be hilarious (especially with cats) but I just don't think it's appropriate.

 

Fetch and obedience games are great for bonding with a new dog and earning trust (both ways). However, I can't offer much advice specifically about the growling because we have Mr. Perfect here. I can shove my hand down his throat to retrieve something if I wanted, take away a raw marrow bone, etc. Best of luck!

[Guest BikeBookBread]

1323988698[/url]' post='5111236']

The only thing I will say is that I do not like laser pointers as a "toy" for dogs and cats. It is an object which they can never catch and is a point of frustration for some... even escalating to psychiatric issues. I've seen dogs and cats with "OCD", star-gazing, and fly catching type behaviours resulting from use of laser pointers. Personally I prefer something the animal can actually catch. The laser pointer may be hilarious (especially with cats) but I just don't think it's appropriate.

 

Fetch and obedience games are great for bonding with a new dog and earning trust (both ways). However, I can't offer much advice specifically about the growling because we have Mr. Perfect here. I can shove my hand down his throat to retrieve something if I wanted, take away a raw marrow bone, etc. Best of luck!

 

O.O regarding laser pointers. Why didn't I think of that? All very very valid points. Thanks! He was having so much fun with it, but you are right... It could be very frustrating and nerve wracking.

 

1323988645[/url]' post='5111234']

On top of all these good suggestions, I'd have a squirt bottle handy should he go out of his way to be confrontational (for example, if he jumps on you, or growls at you when you approach YOUR couch that he happens to be laying on, etc. You really should look into the book "How to be the pack leader: and have your dog love you for it" by Patricia McConnell, or even "The Loved Dog" by Tamar Geller. Both of these books outline a clear, yet gentle program in how to become the boss in your home. From what you describe, your dog clearly does not see your family this way and is trying to see how far he can get with it.

 

And yes, do find another dog trainer if they are unable to help you with these issues. You guys are new owners, but an experienced dog trainer should be able to instruct you on the ways of becoming the one in charge in your home. If you don't take control of this now, it can (and will) get more severe.

 

I forgot to mention the squirt bottle. Yes, we do employ it. In fact, I used it today when he went for the ham sandwich with DD6. He responds to that almost better than anything.

[Guest BikeBookBread]

1323985191[/url]' post='5111192']

Why are you allowing an 8 year old to approach your hound when he is on his bed?

 

By the way, I am not ignoring your PM. I am apparently not allowed to use the PM system as I am a newbie. Sorry.

[MaryJane]

Are you walking the dog at all? The reason that I ask is that I wonder if there is someone in the household that he is bonding with (many times the person who walks him) and whether the growling also occurs with that person.

 

Hard to tell whether your dog is guarding his space because he is fearful or is being dominant.

 

I might suggest setting up a crate and see if he goes in it and stops the growling at people going by -- at the tracks, these dogs are never approached/disturbed except from the front door of their cages so maybe your dog is feeling very vulnerable/exposed since he is open on all sides. It might not help and it could make it worse in that it gives the dog a place to hide.

 

I would get a muzzle on the dog until you are able to keep him from going to the table to "steal food" and until the growling stops. If you can move his bed so that your children are not being growled at when they walk by, then you probably don't need the muzzle while he is on the bed but, I would put it on during "food time" for the children.

 

Another question, does he stop growling if you or your spouse say "NO" or does he continue to growl?

 

I just reread your post and it appears that the only time that he growled at your husband was when he took the bully stick away - I foster greyhounds and this happens quite a bit with rawhides and the like and usually the first time I do this with a foster I go through a set procedure because most are going to object when I take it away the first time.

 

If he is growling at only your children then he considers them to be lower on the totem pole than him and it would explain why he is taking food from them.

[Guest BikeBookBread]

1323992790[/url]' post='5111296']

Are you walking the dog at all? The reason that I ask is that I wonder if there is someone in the household that he is bonding with (many times the person who walks him) and whether the growling also occurs with that person.

DH and I take turns walking him, but on the whole, DH does walk him a bit more than I. Interesting thing, he has never growled at me, and has growled twice at DH.

1323992790[/url]' post='5111296']Hard to tell whether your dog is guarding his space because he is fearful or is being dominant.

 

1323992790[/url]' post='5111296']I might suggest setting up a crate and see if he goes in it and stops the growling at people going by -- at the tracks, these dogs are never approached/disturbed except from the front door of their cages so maybe your dog is feeling very vulnerable/exposed since he is open on all sides. It might not help and it could make it worse in that it gives the dog a place to hide.

 

I would get a muzzle on the dog until you are able to keep him from going to the table to "steal food" and until the growling stops. If you can move his bed so that your children are not being growled at when they walk by, then you probably don't need the muzzle while he is on the bed but, I would put it on during "food time" for the children.

 

Another question, does he stop growling if you or your spouse say "NO" or does he continue to growl?

He immediately stops growling. The squirt bottle works very well, too.

 

1323992790[/url]' post='5111296']I just reread your post and it appears that the only time that he growled at your husband was when he took the bully stick away - I foster greyhounds and this happens quite a bit with rawhides and the like and usually the first time I do this with a foster I go through a set procedure because most are going to object when I take it away the first time.

He has actually growled at DH twice... I forgot about a second time until just now.

 

If he is growling at only your children then he considers them to be lower on the totem pole than him and it would explain why he is taking food from them.

[JohnF]

Just a specific hand signal will do as long as you are consistent with it. You could combine it with your "Stop That & Look at Me" command for a while.

I can get Peggy to stop annoying food begging at the table just by rubbing two hands together in a 'washing' motion.

 

Anyway: Here's what Turid Rugass has to say about altering resource growling. Also check out her Calming Signals.

 

I cannot urge strongly enough not to let what it is now a small manageable problem develop into a deal breaker that means the dog has to be returned. I really think you need a different trainer if the one you have now can't put you and the dog back on the right track.

[Guest BikeBookBread]

1323995154[/url]' post='5111333']

Just a specific hand signal will do as long as you are consistent with it. You could combine it with your "Stop That & Look at Me" command for a while.

I can get Peggy to stop annoying food begging at the table just by rubbing two hands together in a 'washing' motion.

 

Anyway: Here's what Turid Rugass has to say about altering resource growling. Also check out her Calming Signals.

 

I cannot urge strongly enough not to let what it is now a small manageable problem develop into a deal breaker that means the dog has to be returned. I really think you need a different trainer if the one you have now can't put you and the dog back on the right track.

 

Just read the article and it is a very logical approach. Thanks.

DH and I are in complete agreement that this must be dealt with immediately. We have two people from our adoption agency coming over to help us with this situation, and we also have a call into our trainer. We are highly motivated. We our Chase to pieces and the last thing we want is to have to return him.

[kudzu]

Just a thought. If OP has only had her trainer over once, which seemed to be indicated by the 1st post, then it seems premature to suggest the trainer is ineffective for this problem.

[MaryJane]

When was the second time that he growled at your husband?

 

If he responds to you saying "NO', then I'm not sure why you are resorting to using the squirt bottle.

 

Also, how often do you walk the dog and for how long?

[Guest BikeBookBread]

When was the second time that he growled at your husband?

 

If he responds to you saying "NO', then I'm not sure why you are resorting to using the squirt bottle.

 

Also, how often do you walk the dog and for how long?

 

Sorry, I was probably unclear on that point. The squirting has taken place for other behavior issues, not for growling.