Separation Anxiety - Out Of Nowhere

[Laurenbiz]

Hi all,

You may recall my SA issues with Bernie when we first got him a year ago in October 2010. From October 2010 to January 2011, we came home to tinkle and/or poop in the house, no matter how long we were gone, how many potty breaks he had, or how long of a walk he had. No UTI and he was healthy. We read books about SA, talked with different trainers, talked here on GT, tried alone training - DAP diffusers - boring comings/goings - belly bands - calming dog music - canine massage - everything. Basically, if you've heard about it treating SA, we tried it.

 

(Because he escaped the crate and cut himself up, crating isn't an option.)

 

We started him on 75mg Clomipramine 2x/day in January. This has worked like a charm. He is content and lays on his bed even while I am getting ready to walk out the door - opposed to crying and howling before I leave the house, as he used to do before the medicine. We come home after 2 minutes away or 6 hours away and the house is always clean - no inappropriate urination or defecation. Because I don't want the medicine in his system forever, I asked the vet to start to taper down the dose in July. He'd been great, so the vet then prescribed 75mg Clompramine 1x/day. We started this in July 2011, and we are currently still taking this same dose.

 

I can't seem to figure out why, though, Bernie has started the inappropriate urination issue again recently. Two weeks ago, I discovered a flat tire in my car in the garage one morning. So, Justin and I were walking in and out of the house to the garage, on the phone calling work since I'd be late, making lots of ruckus in the garage with the air compressor. Bernie got nervous with this unusual commotion, and he urinated inside the house that day. We thought this was a fluke because we usually aren't in such a frenzy like that every day.

 

This past weekend and today, though, he did it again.

 

He is on the same dose of anti anxiety meds as he was in July, August, September and this month. We give him the same 20 minute walk 2x/day as he has always gotten. We still do occasional alone training. No changes in diet, amount of potty breaks, amount of water/food he gets, no new construction or loud noises around the house. Nothing has changed that we know of. (Unless there is something like the doorbell ringing in the middle of the day? ... This detail we would not know.)

 

To answer the obvious question: no, we have not missed any pills. He gets his pill the same time every day. The pills also have not expired. Does anyone have any advice? I'm stuck. Very stuck, considering that he's on medication for this and has been great on the meds for a while.

 

 

ETA: 20 minute walks twice daily. (Is what he has gotten and still is getting.)

Edited October 24, 2011 by Laurenbiz

[BatterseaBrindl]

Maybe up the dosage again until he gets 'back on track' and then cut it back once he's built his confidence back up??

 

I have zero experience...just throwing out an idea

Edited October 24, 2011 by BatterseaBrindl

[Feisty49]

Is it possible that it takes a few months for the beneficial effects of 2X a day of Clomipramine to dissipate so that it's only now you're seeing the response to 1X a day?

[Laurenbiz]

Is it possible that it takes a few months for the beneficial effects of 2X a day of Clomipramine to dissipate so that it's only now you're seeing the response to 1X a day?

 

Well, I thought about this, but I don't think this is the case. I say that because I clearly remember that the medicine originally took 6 weeks to build up in his system before we started seeing behavioral changes. (That sticks out in my mind because the vet told us 6 weeks and I thought it was interesting that, in the sixth week, he actually did quit tinkling/pooping in the house.)

 

Knowing that 6 weeks was the time frame to build up in his system, I assume that 6 weeks is also the time frame that the new, lower dose would take effect. Right? If that is correct, then the 6 week point would have been some time in August. Just during the past two weeks has he shown the negative behavior.

 

[Feisty49]

Is it possible that it takes a few months for the beneficial effects of 2X a day of Clomipramine to dissipate so that it's only now you're seeing the response to 1X a day?

 

Well, I thought about this, but I don't think this is the case. I say that because I clearly remember that the medicine originally took 6 weeks to build up in his system before we started seeing behavioral changes. (That sticks out in my mind because the vet told us 6 weeks and I thought it was interesting that, in the sixth week, he actually did quit tinkling/pooping in the house.)

 

Knowing that 6 weeks was the time frame to build up in his system, I assume that 6 weeks is also the time frame that the new, lower dose would take effect. Right? If that is correct, then the 6 week point would have been some time in August. Just during the past two weeks has he shown the negative behavior.

 

 

 

That makes sense, though a call to the vet could confirm. I totally understand not wanting him to have to continue on the higher dosage. I hope this resolves itself quickly.

[Batmom]

My first stop would be a urinalysis to rule out infection. First of the morning urine is best; refrigerate if you can't get it to the vet within an hour.

 

How often is he taken out during the day to potty?

 

How much does he drink during a day?

[Laurenbiz]

My first stop would be a urinalysis to rule out infection. First of the morning urine is best; refrigerate if you can't get it to the vet within an hour.

 

How often is he taken out during the day to potty?

 

How much does he drink during a day?

 

His consistent potty breaks are:

5am-7:45am: 3 breaks in the yard in addition to a 20 minute walk

5:45pm-9pm: 4 breaks in the yard and another 20 minute walk

 

On weekends he gets more potty breaks, and on days when Justin may work from his home office (at least one day a week, some weeks more often,) he also gets more potty breaks.

 

I just measured his water to get a good idea! We use those 2 quart stainless steel bowls, but I never fill them all the way because he will splash water everywhere. I would guess that he drinks between 1 qt. and 2. I fill it up halfway in the evening and he usually drinks all of that. Then I fill up just a little either late at night or in the morning. So in the morning and the majority of the day, he doesn't have much water until the big chunk in the evening.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

10 hours without a break during the day, seems like a bit on the long side. Not terrible, but I would think on a regular basis maybe too long. I am not sure, but I heard once that if you have to hold it for long periods of time on a regular basis, you increase the risk of bladder infections. Maybe a old "wifes tale"...

[Guest jbbuzby]

Poor Bernie! I am sorry to hear this . The success you had with Bernie on his medications really played a big role in helping me decide to medicate Ferguson for his SA. I really hope you figure out what it is!

[Batmom]

10 hours without a break during the day, seems like a bit on the long side. Not terrible, but I would think on a regular basis maybe too long.

 

Ditto.

[Guest Swifthounds]

I would do a urinalysis and a culture. If you rule out a medical issue, I would go back to the alone training immediately. Medicating for SA is a first step in the process, not a cure. It merely reduces the state of anxiety from a level where a dog can absorb nothing and cannot learn, to a state of lesser anxiety where the dog can learn. Tapering the dose off without conditioning the dog doesn't save anything other than the costs of meds. you may need to go back to the higher dose and pair that with the training. I also leave less water for SA hounds during the day to prevent stress drinking where they stress and raise their body temp, drink much more than they need, and then have the added anxiety of trying to hold a very full bladder.

 

I would say that 10 hours is longer than some dogs may go and may not be ideal, but many dogs make it that long. With each of my SA dogs the amount of time has never made a difference either way.

[Mike516]

I assume crating him when you're out is not a viable option?

[Guest RunYouRagged]

Have you tried Bach Rescue Remedy for Pets. It is essential oils of flowers. We used it on our grey who was having the same symptoms (small amounts of tee tee ANY time we leave the house for any length of time it was always the same amount). And it worked within a few days. Ask your vet, and maybe use the Rescue remedy with the medicine and then at your own pace slow the medicine down. In our experience we used one whole bottle, offering a little bit on his nose any time we left the house. It took about 2 months to use the whole bottle and he was "cured" for a few months after that.

[3greytjoys]

Nothing else is different? Could Bernie be adjusting to Justin's home schedule, and the inconsistency is a challenge for him? When Justin is home, is Bernie shadowing Justin's every move or is Bernie baby-gated in another area part of that time? Whether Bernie's recent slide a result from less medication, medical problem or environment, it seems something raised Bernie's discomfort level (could have been the flat tire day). I agree with others, I'd have him vet checked, discuss increasing the Clomipramine dose again, and refresh alone training until calm is renewed in Bernie's life again.

 

I imagine you're already aware that a highly anxious dog often can't physically hold urine and bowel, even though they want to wait for someone to come home to let them outside. Compounding this difficulty, if a dog is reprimanded for potty accident/s (or feels negative vibes from humans later), it can magnify and snowball the dog's reactive anxious state for a long time.

 

10 hours to wait to eliminate is a long time. A few of our hounds would have trouble waiting that long even overnight while sleeping. Is there anyone who could let him out at least once at the 4-5 hour mark? (Our group requires hounds have access to outside potty breaks at least every 4 hours during the day.) Like with people, holding urine too long can contribute to serious kidney damage. (At the very least, bladder and/or kidney infections, stones, etc.)

 

BTW, I'm not sure if Bernie eliminates in the same places when he can't wait, but I found a disposable make-shift floor protector that helps. Costco discards large, double-thick cardboard divider sheets in their box bins for customers to use. The double thick dividers are used between stacks of cereal boxes, etc. These dividers can help absorb urine (and are less appealing for dogs to chew than puppy pads). They're good to use under crates and ex-pens to help protect floor or carpet (although, our S.A. girl can't tolerate crates at all).

 

Just a mention re: water bowl spillage. We bought a stainless steel bucket. It's about 10" high, and we only fill it 1/3 to 1/2 full. Sloppy doggie tongues keep nearly all splash inside the bucket. Stainless steel is more expensive, but will last forever and is much safer for dogs' water than plastic. (Plastics can emit harmful chemicals in water (or kibble).) Our stainless steel bucket is placed in an attractive basket which gives it additional height. (Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Bernie have any more water before you leave for work. This just helps the floors stay dry.)

 

Good luck, and hopefully this little back slide is temporary and Bernie will relax again soon.