Here's A Theory

[krissy]

So in the last 6 months (happy 6 month gotcha day, Summit!) that we have had Summit I have been working on his "issues" with other dogs. Non-greyhounds, usually large and male, but not exclusively. And here is what I have noticed and the theory I have formulated.

 

Summit only seems to react to dogs with bad manners. There's a Golden down the street from us and when she sees us walking by her house (on the opposite side of the street) she charges us, hackles up, snarling, devil/Cujo thing. She's going to get hit by a car one of these days. Owner runs after her because she doesn't listen. This evokes ZERO response from Summit who often looks the other way. She's all bark and no bite... gets about a metre from us and then turns tail. I guess she's territorial. The point is, in the face of this overt aggression, Summit is perfect. But you take a dog that everyone says "oh, but he's such a quiet dog"... you know the one. He's not teeth-gnashing aggressive, doesn't growl, everyone thinks he's a really nice dog but what they don't realize is that he's RUDE. He comes up behind your dog and follows you (because of course he's off leash) and sniffs at your dog, postures, doesn't wag his tail or want to play, doesn't want your dog to sniff HIM, etc etc. He has a history of starting a couple of dog fights... you know the one I'm talking about. Summit does NOT appreciate these dogs. Dealing with these dogs is a work in progress for us. He has a good "watch me" but these dogs are often off leash and we can't get away from them, the owner is oblivious, and I can't stay at a distance under Summit's threshold to get the "watch me".

 

Anyway, the theory....

 

This theory depends on other Greyhounds having similar "aggression" issues as my dog... i.e. they're not overtly aggressive but they feel the need to put rude dogs in their place.

 

Most dogs are removed from their mothers and siblings at 6-8 weeks of age and become only dogs. If they're lucky the family already has an older dog to continue it's discipline. If not, canine discipline basically ends. These dogs don't always learn proper dog behaviour and manners. Our greyhounds on the other hand are raised with their mother and siblings, and then continue to run with their siblings until they are about full grown, and after that they continue to have regular turn out with other dogs. They learn proper dog manners, and the "aggression" that we end up seeing in some of our dogs is merely a lower threshold for poor behaviour that they see exhibited by non-greyhounds.

 

Thoughts?

[cozmicdog]

Wow. I think that's a great way of looking at it- I never really thought of the experiences of a typical house dog (non-grey), but everything you're saying makes perfect sense. This could explain why my Topper seems to get apprehensive around non-greys and would just rather have nothing to do with them at all. He's just like me in having little tolerance or patience for those with bad manners, be they canine or human

[OwnedBySummer]

I don't want to burst your bubble... but this theory is already out there and I've heard it lots of times. I agree with it 100%! Our greys have wonderful manners. I love being complimented on how well trained Summer is... but it's not training, it's just the way they come to us.

[Guest Swifthounds]

I can't imagine anyone whose primary motivation was something other than sheer profit sending pups to new homes as young as 6-8 weeks. Thats very close to weaning age and before the pup has learned all it should from mom and littermates. The non NGA breeders I know and respect would bot normally release a pup until 12-14 weeks of age. That said, I know greyhound adoption groups that routinely home 7-9 week old pups - and the adopters have has lots of issues that can be avoided if the pups remIn together longer.

 

It's pretty well established that the way NGA hounds are raised contributes to their already amiable natures. They do, in large part, exhibit better dog manners than many other dog's they encounter. That is probably as much attributed to being raised by humans who understand the inherent value of manners, as it is to being well socialized with other greyhounds.

 

No dog raised with mannerly dog's will appreciate the neighborhood jerk. They'll also feel more threatened by the dog who keeps coming at them, than by the dog that they know will stop at a safe distance - no matter the blustering.

 

When deling with loose, rude dogs the "watch me" is important, but so is your confident attitude and physically placing yourself between your dog and the offending dog. For a your dog to remain attentive to you in this stressful time and actually accept that theres no need to become aggressive/defensive, he has to believe you are confident. It's easier for you to project that with the dog you know won't keep coming than the others.

[krissy]

I don't want to burst your bubble... but this theory is already out there and I've heard it lots of times. I agree with it 100%! Our greys have wonderful manners. I love being complimented on how well trained Summer is... but it's not training, it's just the way they come to us.

 

Oh, I know it's probably not a new theory, but I sort of never really gave it too much thought until recently. I needed to get to know my dog better to really start seeing it.

 

 

When deling with loose, rude dogs the "watch me" is important, but so is your confident attitude and physically placing yourself between your dog and the offending dog. For a your dog to remain attentive to you in this stressful time and actually accept that theres no need to become aggressive/defensive, he has to believe you are confident. It's easier for you to project that with the dog you know won't keep coming than the others.

 

The loose dogs are really the issue. Seeing a dog he is known to have issues with while they are far away, or on lead is not a problem. He's great with the "watch me". It starts to get problematic when the dog is off leash with an oblivious owner. I can't really put myself between the dogs because the loose dog just keeps circling around. I usually try to ask Summit to walk on with me and if the other dog has SOME manners or some training they'll often run off to someone else or to their owner once we start moving. However, many of these rude dogs just keep following us. At that point Summit will stop following me and start to make a big deal out of the dog following us.

 

What makes me REALLY annoyed is when people are oblivious to their dog's poor behaviour... but what makes me absolutely LIVID is when my dog starts reacting, their dog is still pestering us and they do NOTHING. Some of these dogs have poor training and owners call them and it does nothing. At least they're trying to pretending like they care. Some owners can see that I am physically trying to get between dogs, mine is snarling and snapping at theirs (who is clearly not getting the message) and the owner doesn't seem to care. Personally I'd be concerned about my dog getting bit and would call him off. Some people don't seem to care one bit. I don't understand it.

[Laurenbiz]

Hmmmm. I think I disagree. I see the logic behind your theory, but from Bernie's dealings with other dogs, I don't know if I can totally agree.

 

Bernie is always very polite and mannerly to other female dogs - whether it be a tiny Yorkie or a Great Dane. He is also polite and mannerly with well-behaved male dogs, no matter the size.

 

Where he gets bent out of shape is the male dogs that are obnoxious. On walks or at pet stores, any male dog that is squirming, full of too much energy, playful with him, is a dog that makes Bernie snap. Our neighbors across the street have a male Boston Terrier - who met Bernie on a walk and tried to jump up toward Bernie's face. Bernie let that dog know how he felt!

 

I think that Bernie does this for two reasons:

1 - The male/male interaction is more of a dominant interaction than when he meets female dogs, so I think competition can come into play

2 - Bernie is four years old, and he has lived around other Greyhounds his whole life. Chances are, he has never dealt with other breeds of dogs that were high-strung and energetic. So, when he experiences this behavior (that he probably isn't comfortable with,) he lets those dogs know that he doesn't like it.

 

I really do think a lot of it is just the fact that Greyhounds are more docile, gentle, and quiet than many - if not most - other breeds. And, ex-racers have really only known this behavior their whole lives, since they've lived 24/7 around other Greyhounds. When a high-energy Boxer comes into the picture, they just don't like it!

[Guest CampWhippet]

Kent ignored the yappy, barking, silly dogs too no matter how big they were or how tough they acted. But if one slithered up in a Joe Cool sort of way it was on. Kent had a growl like a dragon, not from the mouth but from deep in the stomach. And he'd back that message up too.

 

So I agree with most of what you said.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Lauren,

what your boy is exhibiting is classical "correction behavior". It has 100% to do with manners. When another dog is jumping at his face, this is not "dominant" behavior, or anything other than rudeness. Your boy corrects the behavior. It is not a matter of your hound not have been around this type of behavior (energetic or high-strung), it is the simple fact that it is rude and unacceptable and your boy is doing what is expected of any adult dog, correcting the rude behavior.

[krissy]

Lauren,

what your boy is exhibiting is classical "correction behavior". It has 100% to do with manners. When another dog is jumping at his face, this is not "dominant" behavior, or anything other than rudeness. Your boy corrects the behavior. It is not a matter of your hound not have been around this type of behavior (energetic or high-strung), it is the simple fact that it is rude and unacceptable and your boy is doing what is expected of any adult dog, correcting the rude behavior.

 

I was going to say that I was kind of confused because it sounded EXACTLY like what Summit does... except Summit is sometimes a little overzealous in his corrections. Although, to be fair, I sometimes think that he's NOT over correcting.

 

For example. Young puppies that jump up at him and paw at his face and act obnoxious, he generally ignores. Slightly older puppies he walks away from. Older and he might give them one air snap. Adult dogs that should know better? Cujo emerges. I feel like he knows exactly what is acceptable from what age group. I would like him to learn that it's not acceptable to ME for him to over correct like this. However, it's also exasperating when people give me dirty looks like my dog is aggressive and attacking their dog. Though, those are better than the ones that just keep walking while their rude dog harrasses us.

 

Would be interesting to know if greyhounds placed in homes as puppies at a similar age to other breeds (6-12 weeks) are prone to displaying the same sort of "rude" behaviour, or are more tolerant of rude behaviour.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Krissy,

I am sure someone here will chime in that either works at farms, or has much more experience than I do, but:

Momma hounds and other adults will usually allow younger puppies to paw and lick at the face, as you suspect, as the hound gets older, there is a direct relationship to age/tolerance to the behavior. As they get older, they are allowed to do this less and less. I personally allow my hounds to correct the behavior. You can almost always predict which dogs are going to jump at your hound. When I see a dog that I suspect will jump in my dogs face, I tell the owner "if your dog jumps in my hounds face, I will allow him/her to correct your dog's rude behavior, just letting you know what is going to happen..." Normally people will pull their dog's back and not allow it. As someone has posted here in the past few weeks, an owner of a puppy actually appreciated that the greyhound corrected her puppy. There are some people out there that get it, not many, but a few.

 

Chad

[krissy]

Krissy,

I am sure someone here will chime in that either works at farms, or has much more experience than I do, but:

Momma hounds and other adults will usually allow younger puppies to paw and lick at the face, as you suspect, as the hound gets older, there is a direct relationship to age/tolerance to the behavior. As they get older, they are allowed to do this less and less. I personally allow my hounds to correct the behavior. You can almost always predict which dogs are going to jump at your hound. When I see a dog that I suspect will jump in my dogs face, I tell the owner "if your dog jumps in my hounds face, I will allow him/her to correct your dog's rude behavior, just letting you know what is going to happen..." Normally people will pull their dog's back and not allow it. As someone has posted here in the past few weeks, an owner of a puppy actually appreciated that the greyhound corrected her puppy. There are some people out there that get it, not many, but a few.

 

Chad

 

Hi Chad,

 

I don't mind if he corrects "innocent" rude behaviour such as puppies, or dogs that are too exuberant. I have allowed him to correct my friend's puppy (well, he is no longer a puppy really... 13 month old 90 lb Black G.Shep). And he never takes that too far... it's literally growl and air snap and he's done. A few minutes later if the puppy didn't get the message, growl, air snap. The problem is that he corrects large, male dogs that are persistently (and I almost think knowingly, but maybe that's anthropomorphizing a little too much) rude and it's not just a little correction like he does with a puppy. It also concerns me because these dogs that he chooses to correct in this way are dogs that I think would have no problem getting into a fight, and we all know who would lose that battle. He doesn't just growl and then air snap them. His posture gets stiff and tense, he growls but not the way he growls at a puppy, and he doesn't just air snap he full out lunges and gets up on his back legs. And he doesn't back off if I "correct" him (I don't leash jerk or tell him off, but I'll ask for a "watch me" or a "come" and try to walk off), whereas when correcting a puppy he doesn't get focused. He'll growl and snap, and if I ask for something he'll do it immediately after. He's not fixated on the puppy.

 

Anyway, I don't know how much of that is his "issues" and how much of it is exactly as the theory suggests. I just kind of was analyzing his behaviour from the last 6 months, and it definitely seems like he has a problem with dogs that lack manners. Especially the boys.

[christinepi]

When I read in Turid Rugass's book "Calming Signals" how one of her dogs is so self assured and confident that no matter what cujo is running at her at 30mph she'll just sit there, send her calming signals and COMPLETELY take the wind out of the approaching dogs's sails. Now how does that work?? I totally understand the logic of the "correcting behavior" posters are talking about, and where it's coming from in the dog's mind. My dog does the same thing, he HATES having dogs rush at him. But apparently, in dog society and culture, there also is the option to completely deflect oncoming rude behavior by, in human terms, sitting there and going, "yo, what's up, had a bad day? Let's have a cup of tea and chill." I find that absolutely fascinating. I do not intend to steal this thread, just to add to the exploration of OP's theory:

 

It certainly seems that greyhound pups (or any pups) staying with their family much longer learn better manners. Would that also mean that that kind of upbringing would produce individuals which have a better grasp of calming signals? Are the majority of greys good at sending calming signals? My grey certainly would need to go back to the books for a bit. Or, asked differently, what makes a dog as calm as Turid's?

[krissy]

When I read in Turid Rugass's book "Calming Signals" how one of her dogs is so self assured and confident that no matter what cujo is running at her at 30mph she'll just sit there, send her calming signals and COMPLETELY take the wind out of the approaching dogs's sails. Now how does that work?? I totally understand the logic of the "correcting behavior" posters are talking about, and where it's coming from in the dog's mind. My dog does the same thing, he HATES having dogs rush at him. But apparently, in dog society and culture, there also is the option to completely deflect oncoming rude behavior by, in human terms, sitting there and going, "yo, what's up, had a bad day? Let's have a cup of tea and chill." I find that absolutely fascinating.

 

I think there was a thread about calming signals not too long back, so hopefully some of those people will chime in with a repeat.

 

Summit will stand there cool as can be while Cujo charges him... [cough] crazy Golden Retriever down the street from us [cough] with the whole "How's it going?" attitude. I just wish he could do that to ALL rude dogs.

[Guest Audeamus]

Suzanne Clothier wrote a pretty good article about this a while ago. I'm sure you could find it if you did a google search ( He just wants to say hi).

[Guest Giselle]

To a certain extent, I can agree with the bulk of this. I will also say, however, that greyhounds, as a breed, are just more calm and mellow - thus leading to the overall low levels of serious aggressive behaviors.

 

But let's play Devil's Advocate! First, I really feel that there needs to be a distinction between corrective behaviors and REAL aggression. In my opinion, they are as distinct and different as night and day. I would not agree that legitimate aggression from any dog, greyhound or not, is just an "extension" of low tolerance for poor behavior. Can poor behavior create increasing levels of stress and frustration? Yes. It can be a motivating factor that encourages displays of corrective behaviors, like air snaps and growls. But true aggression is behavior that intends to inflict harm or kill. This is NOT corrective behavior and this is not due to a low tolerance for rude puppies. IMO. That said, Giselle was an *amazing* corrector/mentor for Ivy, but she was not aggressive. Just very good at correcting/ignoring.

 

Devil's Advocate #2: Many non-greys, especially those bred for work and performance, are raised with their littermates until 12-14 weeks and then are sold to performance/work homes, which are often multi-dog households. These dogs are then routinely socialized with other dogs, allowed to play and learn the rules of play. YET, most of the aggression cases I used to see were... performance dogs! Case in point: Ivy was raised with her littermates, mother, and father until ~16 weeks of age, at which point she joined our family of Giselle (your calm, polite, bombproof ex-racer) and my mellow Pekingese. Ivy was socialized well and never had a bad incident in her life. YET, by the age of 6 months, she began displaying serious signs of aggression. And everyone knows her saga since then (She, by the way, was raised to be a performance dog, but we've since pulled out due to her mental [in]stability)

 

So, my point of contention is this: I believe you're right that early puppyhood has an enormous amount to do with the development and display of aggression. I also believe you were right in your first post to put "aggression" in quotes, because the behaviors you described were corrective and not truly aggressive. Yet, I would posit that the main reason why our greys are so calm and display such awesome corrective behaviors is, maybe, just because of the breed. It's true that there's no upbringing like that of the track, but I've met a lot of performance Border Collies who were raised in similar environments and *jeeezz* they were NOWHERE near as calm and polite as greys. I truly think it's more of a breed-disposition : Feel free to affirm and challenge! =) That's what dialogue is for!

[silverfish]

 

Anyway, the theory....

 

This theory depends on other Greyhounds having similar "aggression" issues as my dog... i.e. they're not overtly aggressive but they feel the need to put rude dogs in their place.

 

Most dogs are removed from their mothers and siblings at 6-8 weeks of age and become only dogs. If they're lucky the family already has an older dog to continue it's discipline. If not, canine discipline basically ends. These dogs don't always learn proper dog behaviour and manners. Our greyhounds on the other hand are raised with their mother and siblings, and then continue to run with their siblings until they are about full grown, and after that they continue to have regular turn out with other dogs. They learn proper dog manners, and the "aggression" that we end up seeing in some of our dogs is merely a lower threshold for poor behaviour that they see exhibited by non-greyhounds.

 

Thoughts?

 

Absolutely correct.

 

There's another side to it, of course, in that greyhounds are raised with greyhounds only (as a rule) so there are some who don't 'get' the 'other breeds are dogs too' thing. They need to be taught, of course. But generally speaking, greyhounds learn proper dog manners by playing with their siblings and just being in a 'pack environment', even if only at turnout (the US, as I understand it) or being raised in family groups for very much longer (the UK). Here, pups stay with their littermates for MUCH longer. I regularly see groups of five to six month old, eight month old pups, and older in a paddock at my local trainer's place, with their own 'pup house' where they all sleep in a pile. They aren't divided into pairs until they start training at (I think) about a year old - and even then, here in the UK they continue to live and sleep in pairs their whole working lives, sharing beds etc.

 

Living this way, they DO learn what is acceptable dog behaviour in a way that pups removed and sold singly at 6 weeks old can't possibly do. So yeah, greyhounds really don't understand 'rude dogs' too well.

 

I don't want to burst your bubble... but this theory is already out there and I've heard it lots of times. I agree with it 100%! Our greys have wonderful manners. I love being complimented on how well trained Summer is... but it's not training, it's just the way they come to us.

 

 

 

Lauren,

what your boy is exhibiting is classical "correction behavior". It has 100% to do with manners. When another dog is jumping at his face, this is not "dominant" behavior, or anything other than rudeness. Your boy corrects the behavior. It is not a matter of your hound not have been around this type of behavior (energetic or high-strung), it is the simple fact that it is rude and unacceptable and your boy is doing what is expected of any adult dog, correcting the rude behavior.

 

 

But apparently, in dog society and culture, there also is the option to completely deflect oncoming rude behavior by, in human terms, sitting there and going, "yo, what's up, had a bad day? Let's have a cup of tea and chill." I find that absolutely fascinating. I do not intend to steal this thread, just to add to the exploration of OP's theory:

 

It certainly seems that greyhound pups (or any pups) staying with their family much longer learn better manners. Would that also mean that that kind of upbringing would produce individuals which have a better grasp of calming signals? Are the majority of greys good at sending calming signals? My grey certainly would need to go back to the books for a bit. Or, asked differently, what makes a dog as calm as Turid's?

 

Well, greyhounds are dogs, when it comes down to it. And there are some who are more inclined to respond to aggression than others, and there are those who are 'naturals' at defusing the situation and those that aren't. You can't expect all members of one breed to respond exactly the same as the next in any given situation. It's the same with people: there are those who enter a room and immediately command attention and respect, and those who, no matter how hard they try and how many courses they go on, will never be able to do it.

 

My thoughts are that greyhounds don't understand 'puppy' behaviour from adult dogs because they don't see it while they're growing up, and many can interpret it as a threat.

 

 

 

Devil's Advocate #2: Many non-greys, especially those bred for work and performance, are raised with their littermates until 12-14 weeks and then are sold to performance/work homes, which are often multi-dog households. These dogs are then routinely socialized with other dogs, allowed to play and learn the rules of play. YET, most of the aggression cases I used to see were... performance dogs! Case in point: Ivy was raised with her littermates, mother, and father until ~16 weeks of age, at which point she joined our family of Giselle (your calm, polite, bombproof ex-racer) and my mellow Pekingese. Ivy was socialized well and never had a bad incident in her life. YET, by the age of 6 months, she began displaying serious signs of aggression. And everyone knows her saga since then (She, by the way, was raised to be a performance dog, but we've since pulled out due to her mental [in]stability)

 

So, my point of contention is this: I believe you're right that early puppyhood has an enormous amount to do with the development and display of aggression. I also believe you were right in your first post to put "aggression" in quotes, because the behaviors you described were corrective and not truly aggressive. Yet, I would posit that the main reason why our greys are so calm and display such awesome corrective behaviors is, maybe, just because of the breed. It's true that there's no upbringing like that of the track, but I've met a lot of performance Border Collies who were raised in similar environments and *jeeezz* they were NOWHERE near as calm and polite as greys. I truly think it's more of a breed-disposition : Feel free to affirm and challenge! =) That's what dialogue is for!

 

I think it's a combination of the two, breed disposition AND upbringing.

 

But performance dogs such as border collie aren't usually raised in exactly the same way as greyhounds, are they? They don't tend to be raised in a pack environment, or stay with littermates beyond the minimum. Your Ivy is an exception, but disposition does play a part. And maybe at six months she started to feel confident to behave like an adult and began to upset other dogs and somehow learned a few bad habits - just like people (again) there are those who just seem to continue making the same mistakes over and over, despite everyone's efforts to help them out of the cycle. Just goes to show, doesn't it, that even with the best intentions and a knowledgeable owner, there are no guarantees. Dogs are not simply members of a breed, they are individuals, too.

 

My theory is that with greyhounds it's a combination of disposition/breed characteristics and upbringing, and that these two factors have contributed to each other over the years. If a breed or species lives in a particular environment for long enough, the breed adapts to that environment, does it not? So in the case of greyhounds, the fact that they are, and have been, kept in a pack environment for so long has had an influence on the way the breed characteristics developed.

 

We needed a breed which would live together in harmony with each other, and would allow plenty of handling, moving, massaging, dosing, etc because when you are running a racing kennel you don't have time to play softly-softly with each and every one of the members, you need to be able to lift this dog, dose that dog, massage and groom, turn in and turn out quickly and efficiently with cooperation from the pack. We have chosen the characteristics we need from these dogs, and the breed has responded, as breeds usually do. We're simply fortunate that greyhounds have been bred to be cooperative, docile and fast, and they've left the shape and appearance of these lovely dogs alone.

 

JMHO and what I've deduced from observation.

[Guest Swifthounds]

Hi Chad, I don't mind if he corrects "innocent" rude behaviour such as puppies, or dogs that are too exuberant. I have allowed him to correct my friend's puppy (well, he is no longer a puppy really... 13 month old 90 lb Black G.Shep). And he never takes that too far... it's literally growl and air snap and he's done. A few minutes later if the puppy didn't get the message, growl, air snap. The problem is that he corrects large, male dogs that are persistently (and I almost think knowingly, but maybe that's anthropomorphizing a little too much) rude and it's not just a little correction like he does with a puppy. It also concerns me because these dogs that he chooses to correct in this way are dogs that I think would have no problem getting into a fight, and we all know who would lose that battle. He doesn't just growl and then air snap them. His posture gets stiff and tense, he growls but not the way he growls at a puppy, and he doesn't just air snap he full out lunges and gets up on his back legs. And he doesn't back off if I "correct" him (I don't leash jerk or tell him off, but I'll ask for a "watch me" or a "come" and try to walk off), whereas when correcting a puppy he doesn't get focused. He'll growl and snap, and if I ask for something he'll do it immediately after. He's not fixated on the puppy.

 

The likely difference I see here that accounts for the behavior is that the puppy will yield and desist in the offending behavior. even a marginally socialized puppy will realize pretty soon that if you want the bog dog to play, you play by the big dog's rules, or he won't play with you. That's not going to be the case with an adult, male dog.

 

 

So, my point of contention is this: I believe you're right that early puppyhood has an enormous amount to do with the development and display of aggression. I also believe you were right in your first post to put "aggression" in quotes, because the behaviors you described were corrective and not truly aggressive. Yet, I would posit that the main reason why our greys are so calm and display such awesome corrective behaviors is, maybe, just because of the breed. It's true that there's no upbringing like that of the track, but I've met a lot of performance Border Collies who were raised in similar environments and *jeeezz* they were NOWHERE near as calm and polite as greys. I truly think it's more of a breed-disposition : Feel free to affirm and challenge! =) That's what dialogue is for!

 

Agree with most of what Giselle said. I too have seen plenty of dogs of other breeds remaining with mom and litter for 12-14 weeks that still display aggressive/rude behaviors. The lack of proper socialization by mom, pups, and humans likely accounts for the rude behavior by the average dog in your neighborhood, but wouldn't apply to the working dogs. It's important to consider how long greyhounds (and other sighthounds) were bred to live and work together and that they're still bred that way today. Ask around with trainers, and its few and far between to find one that can/will tolerate a "fighter" in his kennel -it makes them disruptive in turnout, difficult in a kennel environment, and often (though not always) a disaster on the track. Maybe that ill tempered hound would eventually become a phenomenal racer, but most kennels won't take the chance of finding out and the hound won't be bred and will be eliminated from the gene pool. Unlike some other types of dogs with jobs, greyhounds that are ill mannered or ill tempered cannot really do the job of a racing greyhound. Most other working/performance dogs, OTOH, can handle the performance aspects of their job, even if they're a disaster in groups or at home.

[krissy]

Agree with most of what Giselle said. I too have seen plenty of dogs of other breeds remaining with mom and litter for 12-14 weeks that still display aggressive/rude behaviors. The lack of proper socialization by mom, pups, and humans likely accounts for the rude behavior by the average dog in your neighborhood, but wouldn't apply to the working dogs. It's important to consider how long greyhounds (and other sighthounds) were bred to live and work together and that they're still bred that way today. Ask around with trainers, and its few and far between to find one that can/will tolerate a "fighter" in his kennel -it makes them disruptive in turnout, difficult in a kennel environment, and often (though not always) a disaster on the track. Maybe that ill tempered hound would eventually become a phenomenal racer, but most kennels won't take the chance of finding out and the hound won't be bred and will be eliminated from the gene pool. Unlike some other types of dogs with jobs, greyhounds that are ill mannered or ill tempered cannot really do the job of a racing greyhound. Most other working/performance dogs, OTOH, can handle the performance aspects of their job, even if they're a disaster in groups or at home.

 

Well, to play some more devil's advocate... 12-18 weeks isn't the full development of a dog. They aren't socially mature until at least 6 months, some longer. In a real pack situation they would continue to be corrected by other dogs until that point (and even beyond if they're the type of individual who "doesn't get it"). Also, consider this... if a mother gives birth to a litter of puppies and they stay with her for 12 weeks, 6 months, or longer, but she herself is the product of lack of correction as a puppy and has no dog manners, how will she raise puppies with good dog manners that she herself is unaware of?

[Guest Swifthounds]

Well, to play some more devil's advocate... 12-18 weeks isn't the full development of a dog. They aren't socially mature until at least 6 months, some longer. In a real pack situation they would continue to be corrected by other dogs until that point (and even beyond if they're the type of individual who "doesn't get it"). Also, consider this... if a mother gives birth to a litter of puppies and they stay with her for 12 weeks, 6 months, or longer, but she herself is the product of lack of correction as a puppy and has no dog manners, how will she raise puppies with good dog manners that she herself is unaware of?

 

No, it's not full development, but it is the threshold for establishing bite inhibition and basic pack behavior. Sure, if you removed that dog from that situation and proceeded to (intentionally or neglectfully) teach it all the wrong things to do (by reinforcing socially unacceptable behaviors), you'll end up with an unmannered dog. The big difference is that it's easy and natural (and a necessity) for a bitch to teach these things to a pup. They are harder (but not impossible) to teach human to dog, mostly because we have to step outside of our human ways and communicate like dogs (and 4 of the 5 adopters of 7 week old GH puppies who were describing their pups as terrors had never even heard of bite inhibition - let alone knew what it meant or how it's established).

 

It's less likely that an ill mannered dog will have trouble raising pups in a mannerly fashion than that the dog's continued development will be screwed up by neglectful or ignorant humans. The doggie manners" are instinctual and are enforced so that the pups don't unintentionally do damage to the mother. I've seen some of the worst behaved bitches (that I, personally would never have bred) raise pups with manners and bite inhibition. That's not to say that they didn't have inherited temperament issues as well, but that's a different topic altogether.

 

As my personal philosophy, I don't believe in raising or keeping dogs (and especially hounds) as sole pets, so regarding what happens at 6 months, etc. the pack would be there for continued guidance and education. If you have a decent pack, the human job becomes solely teaching the skills to navigate the human world and to interact with people and the pack takes care of the dog skills.

[jetcitywoman]

Lots of good points that are all spot on, I think. One I haven't seen mentioned is that if a dog can learn good manners from others, he's also capable of learning bad manners. (Trivial example: Capri never used to bark at cats. But recently when they're in the yard and Ajax barks at the cat next door, guess who joins the fun? ) Is it possible that Ivy learned some bad manners somewhere after you got her? If not, another possibility is frustration or jealousy or other emotional imbalance in your dog pack. I'm totally guessing here.

 

I agree 100% about a dog needing a full 6 months to mature, and that includes socialization. Dog behaviorists now believe that dogs learn the most socialization at around 12 weeks, and if they are unable to get it at that point in their development, they never really "catch up". However, sexual maturity happens around 4 - 7 months (?) and just like with humans, I'm intuitively sure that there is a different level of socialization that must occur at that point. Something like "this is how adults behave", along with "this is not the correct way to approach an intact male (or female in heat, or female not in heat, etc)". My brother in law has an intact goldie and we took him and Capri for a walk the first time we visited. The goldie is poorly mannered and high energy. Capri is bomb-proof so she didn't react when he paid too much attention to her vulva (it disgusted me, though!). A properly socialized dog would know that you don't try to "groom" a female for mating if she's not in heat. (We never let him get close to mounting her, but I know she would have definitely put him in his place if he tried.)

 

There's a lot of subtlety in dog socialization that a lot of people don't get - you know the ones who think a wagging tail automatically means "friendly". Those are the ones who see a well-mannered dog issuing a correction as being the aggressor, not so much the people on this forum. They're also the ones who yank their dog away when he's merely sniffing your dog's penis or butt. They're applying human manners to their dog, which is actually kind of bad, but understandable. However, you can imagine the confusion or the lesson in acceptable behavior that dog is getting!

[Guest LokisMom]

Not to hijack but where is the thread in which 4 out of 5 puppy adopters didn't know what bite inhibition was?

[Guest DarkHorse]

When I read in Turid Rugass's book "Calming Signals" how one of her dogs is so self assured and confident that no matter what cujo is running at her at 30mph she'll just sit there, send her calming signals and COMPLETELY take the wind out of the approaching dogs's sails. Now how does that work?? I totally understand the logic of the "correcting behavior" posters are talking about, and where it's coming from in the dog's mind. My dog does the same thing, he HATES having dogs rush at him. But apparently, in dog society and culture, there also is the option to completely deflect oncoming rude behavior by, in human terms, sitting there and going, "yo, what's up, had a bad day? Let's have a cup of tea and chill." I find that absolutely fascinating. I do not intend to steal this thread, just to add to the exploration of OP's theory:

 

It certainly seems that greyhound pups (or any pups) staying with their family much longer learn better manners. Would that also mean that that kind of upbringing would produce individuals which have a better grasp of calming signals? Are the majority of greys good at sending calming signals? My grey certainly would need to go back to the books for a bit. Or, asked differently, what makes a dog as calm as Turid's?

 

Dexter is one of these and I have NOOOO idea how he got to be that way. We've been rushed by dogs before, but only when we're coming around corners, coming down of ledges, coming through doors, etc - situations in which he can't see what's coming and prepare for it. Even then, we have never been "attacked", only jumped on. With that, he normally just lets the other dogs slide off him by meeting them in what I call a "chest check" (stepping forward and stopping their momentum by being in their path and taking their weight on his chest) and then stepping back. From there, he stands there, not looking at the other dog, until they are behaving politely. As long as I let him stand and deal with it rather than trying to drag him along, the other dog eventually calms down and starts being polite.

 

Araley's more of a correcter - she'll start to grumble and growl if dogs push too much and really get in her face. The worst she does is bark and snarl, though. I've never seen her snap, except once at me when I woke her up leaning over her, which I'm pretty sure was her being startled. She's really good with other dogs, and actually likes my parents' really rude lab as long as they're not out together. When they are, she'll start grumbling at him and Dexter will step in and defuse the situation. Same at any dog parks/runs - if she's getting bugged and he's not too busy playing, he'll get in there and try to take the heat. It doesn't always work if the other dog is fixated on Araley, of course.

 

Interestingly enough, my parents' lab likes to try to be the mediator. Unfortunately, because he wasn't raised with other dogs, had limited socialization as a puppy and still has fairly limited other-dog socialization, he tries to mediate by BARKING at fighting dogs (which I'm sure most of us know is more likely to inspire aggression than quash it). I figure he learned from my parents always yelling at my brother when he's doing something wrong. In the lab's mind, loud commanding noises = correction. My parents think it's funny and won't stop it. I step in the way and redirect his attention.

[Guest Giselle]

Agree with most of what Giselle said. I too have seen plenty of dogs of other breeds remaining with mom and litter for 12-14 weeks that still display aggressive/rude behaviors. The lack of proper socialization by mom, pups, and humans likely accounts for the rude behavior by the average dog in your neighborhood, but wouldn't apply to the working dogs. It's important to consider how long greyhounds (and other sighthounds) were bred to live and work together and that they're still bred that way today. Ask around with trainers, and its few and far between to find one that can/will tolerate a "fighter" in his kennel -it makes them disruptive in turnout, difficult in a kennel environment, and often (though not always) a disaster on the track. Maybe that ill tempered hound would eventually become a phenomenal racer, but most kennels won't take the chance of finding out and the hound won't be bred and will be eliminated from the gene pool. Unlike some other types of dogs with jobs, greyhounds that are ill mannered or ill tempered cannot really do the job of a racing greyhound. Most other working/performance dogs, OTOH, can handle the performance aspects of their job, even if they're a disaster in groups or at home.

 

Well, to play some more devil's advocate... 12-18 weeks isn't the full development of a dog. They aren't socially mature until at least 6 months, some longer. In a real pack situation they would continue to be corrected by other dogs until that point (and even beyond if they're the type of individual who "doesn't get it"). Also, consider this... if a mother gives birth to a litter of puppies and they stay with her for 12 weeks, 6 months, or longer, but she herself is the product of lack of correction as a puppy and has no dog manners, how will she raise puppies with good dog manners that she herself is unaware of?

But I guess my point is this: Many performance and working dogs ARE raised in "pack" environments with plenty of adult and senior dogs who do not tolerate rude puppy behavior. Most performance homes that I've personally associated with have a minimum of 4 dogs and attend classes once a week, trials a few times a month, and dog socials nearly every day. To tally it up, their puppies are exposed to dozens, if not hundreds, of other dogs in a very compact unit of time. Believe me, they get corrected when their behavior goes haywire.

 

So, if your theory is that ex-racers have phenomenal temperaments just because they are raised in a social setting where they are allowed to get corrected for rude behavior, I would argue that that alone is not the reason. And I guess my "evidence" is that many other strains of dogs are bred and raised in very similar ways but still display frightening levels of (true) aggression.

 

I do agree, however, that this upbringing can be a partial explanation, but I do think it has much more to do with the breed disposition overall and the years of selectively breeding greys for a docile, numbers-friendly temperament. Yes, being at the track encourages breeding for stable, calm temperaments. But, in my opinion, that just brings it all back to the breed itself, doesn't it? Another food for thought: Performance dogs, while often bred and raised in 'pack' settings, are often specifically bred for high drive, high intensity, quick reactions, and high sensitivity to the environment. Despite their social upbringings that are very similar to the track's, performance dogs have significantly higher levels of true aggression. So, is it *really* the environment or is it the deliberate selectivity of traits in certain breeds? It might be handy to note that a dog with high drive, high intensity, and high sensitivity to the environment is probably a lot more inherently prone to aggression than that bred for a calm, mellow disposition.

 

ETA: Oh, and Ivy? She has the temperament of that stated above: high drive, sensitivity to the environment, intensity. Could we say that she has something neurologically imbalanced that contributed to her aggression (full-blown aggression at 6 months is extremely abnormal)? Sure, why not. But maybe that "imbalance" is just the temperament for which she was bred. Am I starting to sound a little ambivalent about performance dogs and the venues for which they're bred? You betcha.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Giselle

[Guest Swifthounds]

Agree with most of what Giselle said. I too have seen plenty of dogs of other breeds remaining with mom and litter for 12-14 weeks that still display aggressive/rude behaviors. The lack of proper socialization by mom, pups, and humans likely accounts for the rude behavior by the average dog in your neighborhood, but wouldn't apply to the working dogs. It's important to consider how long greyhounds (and other sighthounds) were bred to live and work together and that they're still bred that way today. Ask around with trainers, and its few and far between to find one that can/will tolerate a "fighter" in his kennel -it makes them disruptive in turnout, difficult in a kennel environment, and often (though not always) a disaster on the track. Maybe that ill tempered hound would eventually become a phenomenal racer, but most kennels won't take the chance of finding out and the hound won't be bred and will be eliminated from the gene pool. Unlike some other types of dogs with jobs, greyhounds that are ill mannered or ill tempered cannot really do the job of a racing greyhound. Most other working/performance dogs, OTOH, can handle the performance aspects of their job, even if they're a disaster in groups or at home.

 

Well, to play some more devil's advocate... 12-18 weeks isn't the full development of a dog. They aren't socially mature until at least 6 months, some longer. In a real pack situation they would continue to be corrected by other dogs until that point (and even beyond if they're the type of individual who "doesn't get it"). Also, consider this... if a mother gives birth to a litter of puppies and they stay with her for 12 weeks, 6 months, or longer, but she herself is the product of lack of correction as a puppy and has no dog manners, how will she raise puppies with good dog manners that she herself is unaware of?

But I guess my point is this: Many performance and working dogs ARE raised in "pack" environments with plenty of adult and senior dogs who do not tolerate rude puppy behavior. Most performance homes that I've personally associated with have a minimum of 4 dogs and attend classes once a week, trials a few times a month, and dog socials nearly every day. To tally it up, their puppies are exposed to dozens, if not hundreds, of other dogs in a very compact unit of time. Believe me, they get corrected when their behavior goes haywire.

 

So, if your theory is that ex-racers have phenomenal temperaments just because they are raised in a social setting where they are allowed to get corrected for rude behavior, I would argue that that alone is not the reason. And I guess my "evidence" is that many other strains of dogs are bred and raised in very similar ways but still display frightening levels of (true) aggression.

 

I do agree, however, that this upbringing can be a partial explanation, but I do think it has much more to do with the breed disposition overall and the years of selectively breeding greys for a docile, numbers-friendly temperament. Yes, being at the track encourages breeding for stable, calm temperaments. But, in my opinion, that just brings it all back to the breed itself, doesn't it? Another food for thought: Performance dogs, while often bred and raised in 'pack' settings, are often specifically bred for high drive, high intensity, quick reactions, and high sensitivity to the environment. Despite their social upbringings that are very similar to the track's, performance dogs have significantly higher levels of true aggression. So, is it *really* the environment or is it the deliberate selectivity of traits in certain breeds? It might be handy to note that a dog with high drive, high intensity, and high sensitivity to the environment is probably a lot more inherently prone to aggression than that bred for a calm, mellow disposition.

 

I'm not sure we're really that far apart in our thinking on this. I don't doubt that lots of performance homes are multiple dog homes with training and lots of opportunities for socialization. Those things definitely play a big part, but where dog's are bred for performance, even when poor qualities and bad temperament are considered (and often they are not) they are trumped by the pursuit of having a faster agility dog, a better herder, or whatever the job at hand. As I tried to highlight in my previous post, in the particular environments in which racing greyhounds live and work, temperament issues can become a big problem fast and thus those dogs are often petted out Ans thus also removed from the gene pool. When it comes to racing greyhounds, I see the two (breeding and environment) as interrelated and mutually reinforcing. If it were just breed temperament, AKC greyhounds would reflect those same qualities, yet a good many of them would do well to have crates with padded walls (though not all).

 

Not to hijack but where is the thread in which 4 out of 5 puppy adopters didn't know what bite inhibition was?

 

Since I think you were referring to my comment, I just wanted to chime in and say I was relating personal experience not posted about elsewhere on GT.

[Guest LokisMom]

Swifthounds gotcha. There's a puppy thread going right now too and I wondered if I'd missed it there