Fun Training Or Classes

[Guest KennelMom]

I'm starting a basic obedience class next week with our foster. She's a really great dog, but was returned for biting a child and I think (hope ) that putting her through an official obedience class and developing some solid skills will help her get adopted. I hope to get her CGC at the end of the class.

 

This weekend I am also attending a 2-day seminar held by Suzanne Clothier who wrote the awesome article on dog reactivity, He Just Wants to Say Hi. The seminar is on working with fearful, reactive, and anxious dogs. That's right up my alley - I've already done Pat Miller's Reactive Rover 3-day camp with my ex's dog and attended Emma Parson's How to Teach a Reactive Dog Class 2-day seminar. I'm really excited to be learning some new stuff and exposed to so many other positive trainers. It will be an exhausting 2 days, but well worth it.

 

 

I went to two-day Suzanne Clothier seminar a few years ago and it was awesome! I learned a lot and it was great to be able to run some ideas/theories by her to see if she agreed with me (she did!)

[NeylasMom]

I'm starting a basic obedience class next week with our foster. She's a really great dog, but was returned for biting a child and I think (hope ) that putting her through an official obedience class and developing some solid skills will help her get adopted. I hope to get her CGC at the end of the class.

 

This weekend I am also attending a 2-day seminar held by Suzanne Clothier who wrote the awesome article on dog reactivity, He Just Wants to Say Hi. The seminar is on working with fearful, reactive, and anxious dogs. That's right up my alley - I've already done Pat Miller's Reactive Rover 3-day camp with my ex's dog and attended Emma Parson's How to Teach a Reactive Dog Class 2-day seminar. I'm really excited to be learning some new stuff and exposed to so many other positive trainers. It will be an exhausting 2 days, but well worth it.

 

 

I went to two-day Suzanne Clothier seminar a few years ago and it was awesome! I learned a lot and it was great to be able to run some ideas/theories by her to see if she agreed with me (she did!)

She's actually coming back this fall to teach her new dog assessment tool, CARAT. I'd really like to take it, but it's almost $400 this time so I'm not sure I'll be able to swing it.

 

Have fun with your foster!

[Guest CampWhippet]

My wife is the dog activities person in the house. She is doing flyball with two whippets, agility with one of them and obedience with Sammie the grey. Sammie has passed the basics and moving up, although I think she is a quick study because we got her as a puppy.

 

[krissy]

Summit is starting agility the first week of April! So excited! Just thought I'd share. I have nothing constructive to add. lol

[NeylasMom]

Summit is starting agility the first week of April! So excited! Just thought I'd share. I have nothing constructive to add. lol

This is exactly what this thread is here for! Have fun with Summit!

[Guest Gert]

Summit is starting agility the first week of April! So excited! Just thought I'd share. I have nothing constructive to add. lol

 

Me either, Krissy!

 

But, I'm starting a class with Flower on April 2nd.

[krissy]

But, I'm starting a class with Flower on April 2nd.

 

What kind of class? Obedience?

[Guest Gert]

But, I'm starting a class with Flower on April 2nd.

 

What kind of class? Obedience?

 

It's a basis obedience class....my first.

 

Here's the description: Companion Dog I will teach the following: sit, down, stay, walk on a loose leash, come (recall), off, etc . Individual problem areas will be covered as needed (barking, jumping, digging, crate and house training, etc.). Games will be used, and there will be an emphasis on fun (both for the dogs and the humans)! Modern, positive training methods will be used (treats, praise, rewards).

[NeylasMom]

But, I'm starting a class with Flower on April 2nd.

 

What kind of class? Obedience?

 

It's a basis obedience class....my first.

 

Here's the description: Companion Dog I will teach the following: sit, down, stay, walk on a loose leash, come (recall), off, etc . Individual problem areas will be covered as needed (barking, jumping, digging, crate and house training, etc.). Games will be used, and there will be an emphasis on fun (both for the dogs and the humans)! Modern, positive training methods will be used (treats, praise, rewards).

Sounds like a really great class to take! I really like instructors who choose to incorporate games and tricks into the class to make it more fun for everyone.

 

 

Well we have officially completed our advanced obedience and shaping class with Pat and we have the certificate to prove it. We spent the second half of the class actually playing the My Dog Can Do That board game. It was SO incredibly fun! We were neck and neck to win until we pulled this behavior: your dog must pick up a toy and drop it into a basket located at least 5 feet from the owner. Uh yeah, well, Zuri and I almost chose that as our main behavior but decided on the donation basket instead, while both of the other people in my class chose that one and had been working on it for 7 weeks. We actually made a good effort - I threw the tennis ball past the basket and as Zuri was bringing it back to me, I tried to time my "give" command as he was right in front of the basket. He got really close several times, but just missed the basket each time. So the next person said her dog could do it and of course he could - 20 points to her. So we came in second.

 

I'm off to look for that game right now. Pat said they stopped making it so you can only find it on ebay and it's pricey.

Edited March 17, 2011 by NeylasMom

[NeylasMom]

Hmm, I have a bid on a brand new one for $30 w/shipping that ends in 10 hrs

[Guest Gert]

 

It's a basis obedience class....my first.

 

 

Sounds like a really great class to take! I really like instructors who choose to incorporate games and tricks into the class to make it more fun for everyone.

 

I can't type.....that should say basic obedience.

 

I hope it's fun, Jen. I eventually want to take all three of my dogs through it.

 

Congrats on your 2nd!! Is Zuri the only sighthound in the classes you've been to?? I stopped by a 'show 'n go' the other day at an Obedience Club here in town (I think it's basically a practice session for their certifications?)....anyway, not a sighthound in sight!

[NeylasMom]

I can't recall ever having another sighthound in any of our classes. Zuri and Neyla both also went through basic, intermediate, and flyball separately so that's at least 7 classes (flyball was ongoing though) with no sighthounds.

 

I know they're out there though. They better be since our adoption contract requires our adopters to complete basic obedience.

[Guest Gert]

I can't recall ever having another sighthound in any of our classes. Zuri and Neyla both also went through basic, intermediate, and flyball separately so that's at least 7 classes (flyball was ongoing though) with no sighthounds.

 

I know they're out there though. They better be since our adoption contract requires our adopters to complete basic obedience.

 

Well, I know there will be at least one other GH in Flower's class. I've talked a friend into doing it with me!

 

There was no such clause in my contract....but, I'm hoping that it'll be fun...for me and my pups! I'll report back and let you know!

[krissy]

I can't recall ever having another sighthound in any of our classes. Zuri and Neyla both also went through basic, intermediate, and flyball separately so that's at least 7 classes (flyball was ongoing though) with no sighthounds.

 

I know they're out there though. They better be since our adoption contract requires our adopters to complete basic obedience.

 

Well, I know there will be at least one other GH in Flower's class. I've talked a friend into doing it with me!

 

There was no such clause in my contract....but, I'm hoping that it'll be fun...for me and my pups! I'll report back and let you know!

 

No sighthounds in Summit's class either. My trainer does have one lady that fosters and brings her fosters for classes sometimes though. We start agility in April, so we'll see if we have any sighthounds. I have no expectations to see a greyhound, but maybe a whippet.

[NeylasMom]

I won the game! Brand new, $35 with shipping.

 

There's a used version for $20 + shipping (buy it now) if anyone is interested.

[krissy]

Nooooo! Summit's first agility class has been pushed back by a week. Trainer has a conflict with a conference she's supposed to go to. I was so excited! ha ha.

 

Also, I've got Summit fetching a tennis ball now which is awesome because his other toys aren't very conducive to being thrown more than a couple metres.

[Guest Gert]

Okay...well, our first class was today. Not sure yet how I feel about it....it was okay, but, I wasn't "wowed." Not sure what I was expecting, though.

 

So, I told y'all I talked a friend into coming....but, big surprise, there was another greyhound there!! So, out of nine dogs, there were 3 greyhounds! Pretty good, huh??

 

Anyway, here's my homework/things to work on this week: sound recognition, name game, look, sit, positive reward sound ("good girl") and release word ("ok").

 

So, I have a question for those of you that have done this before.....Flower doesn't sit. I know she can, but, she doesn't...unless it's to scratch...and then it's on the side of her butt. The instructor wanted us to "lure" our dogs into a sit by holding a treat in front of their nose and then moving it back over their heads, towards their butts....keeping it close to their nose to keep them focused on it. (I'm sure you all have seen Victoria Stillwell use the method I'm trying to describe?) Well, Flower would just strain her neck back until she couldn't any further and then either take a step back or give up and ignore the treat. I asked the instructor if, in a case like this, is it okay to put her into a sit, physically (by maybe the tuck and fold method), until she understands what I'm looking for?? She felt like, if I had to do that, then the reward better be really good! Like maybe hot dogs, or something.

 

What do you guys think?? How have you successfully taught your natural non-sitters to sit??

[kudzu]

Flower would just strain her neck back until she couldn't any further and then either take a step back or give up and ignore the treat.

 

Have had the same problem with every Grey. Instructors seem incredulous about this but I assure you your situation isn't uncommon.

 

I asked the instructor if, in a case like this, is it okay to put her into a sit, physically (by maybe the tuck and fold method), until she understands what I'm looking for?? She felt like, if I had to do that, then the reward better be really good! Like maybe hot dogs, or something.

 

Doing that just seemed to stress my Greys & because of his arthritis was not even feasible for one. Also, hot dogs are actually not a high value reward for mine. They would need real meat! Still, modeling is not the way I would want to go.

 

What do you guys think?? How have you successfully taught your natural non-sitters to sit??

 

Well, I acutally did use luring in a strange way for two of mine. As happened with your Grey, mine just started to back up rather than sit. With the first she finally bumped into her crate & accidentally plopped down into a sit. CLICK We did it again later & that evening when she went into her crate at bedtime I held a treat over the crate, she back a bit & plop/sit. CLICK From then on she knew sit. Though I admit it took a while to convince her that if we were in the living room when I said sit she could sit right there & not run back to the bedroom to sit in her crate.

 

My senior learned sit soon after I adopted him at age 10 yo. I set him up in a corner with & tried to achieve my previously successful Lure/Plop/Sit. Took several tries & ultimately his tuckus bumped an end table & he plopped onto an a dog bed. Still we managed to achieve a sit that way. Took me a while to convince him he didn't have to find a dog bed or bed sized/shaped piece of carpet to sit on.

 

Then along came Grey three. Luring? Nope. Lure/Plop/Sit? Nope. Modeling? Yes, I finally resorted to that. Yes, it was stressful not matter how calmly, slowly, gently, confidnelty, etc. No it was not successful. He ultimately learned through shaping. I captured it as he was on his way down to scratch or lay down. Now I am shaping it into a prettier sit. The key was clicking as he started & then clicking later & later. This got a sit before the down. And I never, ever ask them to do a down from a sit. Never. Ever. Never. Enough emphasis?

[krissy]

Had the same problem with Summit. He's food motivated, but if he has to crane his neck too hard or if too much time passes between treats then he loses interest. I tried backing him into corners as well so he had nowhere to back up to, but then he just gave up and tried to walk away.

 

I still ended up using the luring technique. I cut a big brick of cheese and used that as my lure. As long as he was reaching up and back with his head he got to keep nibbling at it and I just kept luring farther and farther. Because he was still getting something out of the deal he didn't give up and as he started to drop his rear end I added praise and encouragement. When his bum hit the floor I let him have a big chunk of the cheese. And then repeat several times immediately after to reinforce that the sit is a big deal. After that, no problem.

 

This got a sit before the down. And I never, ever ask them to do a down from a sit. Never. Ever. Never. Enough emphasis?

 

Agreed. I always leave Summit in a stand until it's time for the down and drop him from there. Most other people ask their dogs to sit while they wait to be asked for the down/stay. I have enough trouble keeping him up in a sit for a sit/stay without having him think *I* think it's acceptable to down from a sit. He does that on his own if I make him sit for too long, and then I have to correct him and ask for the sit all over again.

[Guest Gert]

Then along came Grey three. Luring? Nope. Lure/Plop/Sit? Nope. Modeling? Yes, I finally resorted to that. Yes, it was stressful not matter how calmly, slowly, gently, confidnelty, etc. No it was not successful. He ultimately learned through shaping. I captured it as he was on his way down to scratch or lay down. Now I am shaping it into a prettier sit. The key was clicking as he started & then clicking later & later. This got a sit before the down.

 

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but, I am new to obedience work. What is shaping?? I think you kinda hinted at the concept. Catch her when she goes to sit...say, to scratch. Reward her as soon as she sits and say the command?? Is that right?? I don't have a clicker....does shaping only work in conjunction with clicker training?? Or would treating and saying the command work just as well??

 

And I never, ever ask them to do a down from a sit. Never. Ever. Never. Enough emphasis?

 

Again, new to obedience....why is this?? Is it because of what Krissy mentioned, "I have enough trouble keeping him up in a sit for a sit/stay without having him think *I* think it's acceptable to down from a sit. He does that on his own if I make him sit for too long, and then I have to correct him and ask for the sit all over again"??

 

The reason I ask is I *think* I heard her mention something along the lines of teaching down from a sit?? I could be wrong....but, if that's what she's suggest, I'd like to understand why it could be an issue....

[krissy]

The reason I ask is I *think* I heard her mention something along the lines of teaching down from a sit?? I could be wrong....but, if that's what she's suggest, I'd like to understand why it could be an issue....

 

Jen of Never Say Never Greyhounds discusses this, but I can't find the blog entry I'm thinking of. I did find an abbreviated version which makes the basic point:

 

"We have already talked about greyhounds having trouble with sitting and melting into a down. Be alert for the slightest sign that your greyhound is about to lie down. Step into him to prevent that from happening. I would much prefer my greyhound stand up than to lie down from a sit"

 

I've taught other dogs to down from a sit. It makes sense for them if they're sitting to be lured into a down. If you lure from standing sometimes they just walk along following the treat with their nose to the ground. But they'll stay in a sit because it's comfortable. Greyhounds will always choose a down over a sit.

Edited April 11, 2011 by krissy

[kudzu]

What is shaping??

Hi, Gert. Shaping is the shorthand name for a training method, "shaping by successive approximations." So you were close but with shaping you do not expect the full behavior in the beginning. You get the first little part, reward that & then shape it into the behavior you want. To get a sit instead of a down or scratching you would at first reward before they even got to that point. For many things that is because you simply cannot get the full behavior at first, like a retrieve where the first step may be simply looking at the object. In the case of my guy & the sit I rewarded sooner because I had to to catch him before he actually flopped down or started scratching. It is also easier to shape it into a decent looking sit this way. So the order might be something like reward first for hind legs moving. Then when he was doing that predictably slowly stop rewarding for that but then reward for hind end wiggling. Then step by step it may be weight shifts back, hind legs bend, rump starts to go down, rump almost all the way down & finally butt hits the floor. When I got to that part if I missed rewarding that & he ended up laying down or scratching instead I simply did not reward.

 

Yes, I use a marker like a clicker or specific word that my dogs know means they did the correct thing & then I back that up with a reward. Usually that reward is high value food when I am initially training the behavior though once they learn it that can become just praise or something else they enjoy. For example, sitting before the door opens earns the reward of going out. In the beginning though the reward needs to be of high enough value that the dog will be willing to repeat the a behavior they would not necessarily do on their own. Using that plus shaping you can get the dog to voluntarily do some rather complex behaviors. Something as simple as a natural behavior like your dog touching their nose to an object as part of investigating can be shaped into turning on a light for you. Here is an example from Donna & Jessie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DWbV5VKZxc&feature=player_embedded

 

That behavior is based on targeting & in this case it actually grew out of the simple hand target exercise in this link: Hand Target It is a surprisingly versatile behavior. A dog who knows a solid hand target can actually be directed to recall, heel & position themselves where you want them without actually knowing those commands. Quite a helpful little skill even if you don't want your dog to going around flipping switches for you.

 

And yes, the reason I do not ask for a down from a sit is because of the incredible melting dog syndrome my Greyhounds have.

[krissn333]

When I finish school at the end of the month I'd really like to do some basic obedience with one of the pups. However, there are only a couple of places in the area other than Petsmart that offer basic obedience. The one that everyone seems to go to has a trainer there that has actually said to me that greyhounds are stupid dogs and are untrainable. So I obviously don't want to go there. I also think that Petsmart is VERY distracting as the obedience is set up right in the middle of the store.

 

I did think about taking one of the iggies to that place though - they will both sit on command but have very few manners otherwise. I'd really like to get Skimmie up to speed on obedience because I think he'd be an awesome agility dog (he can REALLY jump!). Maybe the lady wouldn't be such a jerk if I walk in there with a dog that can already sit

 

I think that Fritz could pass the CGC test with very little training...he knows "take a bow" and will sphinx on command. On occasion I can get him to flop over and relax too but that's got more to do with how tired he is The only thing we'd need to work on is the sit/lay down and stay. He would follow me Leaving him with a friendly stranger for several minutes has never been a problem - he's such an attention hog that he doesn't care who is on the other end of his leash

 

I have tried sit with Ace and Fritz with minimal success. I KNOW that Fritz can sit naturally - I have seen him sit in the yard many times. As soon as he realizes I can see him, he stands up I have never seen Ace sit, ever. We've tried the luring and we've tried just me folding them. Neither has worked very well. We may try luring but in the corner as someone mentioned. Pinky can sit as well, but she's another that will just back up forever if you try luring, and if she were to bump something with her butt she would panic. She also panics when being folded. She's kind of panicky in general

 

Anyway, I'm rambling, but this has been an interesting thread

[krissy]

When I finish school at the end of the month I'd really like to do some basic obedience with one of the pups. However, there are only a couple of places in the area other than Petsmart that offer basic obedience. The one that everyone seems to go to has a trainer there that has actually said to me that greyhounds are stupid dogs and are untrainable. So I obviously don't want to go there. I also think that Petsmart is VERY distracting as the obedience is set up right in the middle of the store.

 

Distracting isn't necessarily bad as the biggest problem for most people is getting their dog to listen to them with distractions. We are still working up to distractions now that the weather is getting warmer and there are more people and dogs outside. Of course, trying to teach a dog that knows NOTHING in a distracting environment can sometimes be an exercise in frustration and futility!.

 

I wouldn't go to a trainer who thinks greyhounds are dumb. Not unless I knew my dog and I had already taught him to learn. I'd take Summit to a trainer who thought greyhounds are dumb because I KNOW he'll show him/her up. He loves to learn and has previously been the best dog in class. When he knows it's time to work he is all business. But teaching him to learn (i.e. teaching him his first command) took a lot longer than any subsequent command. Once you get the idea through to them the lightbulb goes on. At least for the ones that take to learning.

 

We actually had a "supply teacher" for one of our obedience classes, and she made a couple off-hand, innocent sounding comments that basically implied greyhounds were dumb dogs. Summit had been to the vet the previous day for a long series of x-rays, and then the day of class he was donating blood at 4 PM (class was at 7) so he was a little off... but his a little off was still better than any other dog in class. Anyway, she was borrowing dogs to demonstrate each exercise. She asked to borrow Summit for one. It was a front (sit directly in front of handler) and then around finish (walk around your right side, behind you and sit on your left side ready to heel). Summit pretty much already knew how to do this. We'd learned it for the first time the previous week. He wasn't perfect but he got the idea. Anyway, she had him standing in front of her and asked for a sit... and he just stared at her. So she asks him again, and he keeps staring at her. So she hands him back with a little commend about how "he's not very good at sit is he?" so I took the leash back from her and said "Summit, sit", and his bum dropped like a rock. It was awesome. Maybe I shouldn't be proud that my dog only responds to commands from me, but if I were him, I wouldn't listen to her either.

[Guest Gert]

Thanks, Kudzu!

 

And thanks for all the help, y'all. I took a look at Jen's 'Never Say Never Greyhounds' site and found her "Sit 101" blog. Basically, it suggests using a hill, with the dogs head downhill and luring. Now to find a hill in Florida!

 

I think if I can find a suitable hill AND use something Flower can continuously nibble on (hotdog or string cheese were Jen's recommendations) that she'll get it.

 

I'll keep you posted!