House Soiling Behavior Questions

[Laurenbiz]

Hello all-

 

I'm back with more news/questions about Bernie's issue with urinating in the house while he is alone.

 

As you probably know, (I had another thread about a month ago,) he has urinated nearly every time that he's been alone since we got him this past October. No UTI, and he easily holds it all night. Our vet also told us that he doesn't have true separation anxiety because we always come home to the house in one piece. (So, the vet wasn't terribly helpful with Bernie's SA issue.)

 

We initially crated him, and then we axed the crate when Justin told me that Bernie almost bit him one time that he was in the process of getting him into the crate. Then, he had access to only the main area of the house, but we would still come home to a puddle in the kitchen, or a wet spot on our carpet. (He never was marking much - he left large puddles smack-dab in the middle of the floor, and not on vertical surfaces.)

 

We are not over-watering him, and we take him on two daily walks and give him ample potty breaks. We ignore him 10 minutes before leaving and 10 minutes after coming inside. He has a radio on, a light on, treats, a filled kong, and toys while he is alone.

 

We've signed him up for a Greyhound-Only Obedience class. I've discussed his problems with the trainer, and she mailed me two relaxing dog CDs. She said that even though they sound like a joke, that she has had success with them. She also suggested to get the crate back out and get serious with crate training, and that he will get the idea that he doesn't want to soil where he eats and gets treats. She also suggested melatonin and lavender essential oils, but I haven't tried these.

 

In the past week or two, he's gotten all of his meals in his crate, and the only treats he gets are inside the crate. I've thrown in bits of dried liver (his favorite) multiple times, daily. He very willingly and voluntarily walks into the crate now for treats and food, but he's still not happy when we close the door.

 

Because of the tinkle nearly every time he is alone, we are using a belly band. Unfortunately, he still wets the band during his time in the crate alone. We've only had two periods of alone time where the belly band has been effective.

 

This has been occurring almost daily for the 2+ months we've had him. There have been a handful of times - I believe 5 altogether - that he successfully went a period alone holding his bladder.

 

He is 4 years old, and he's the only dog in our house. He came from a foster home with dogs, and the foster home let him out of his crate when he whined, which may still contribute to some of his crate issues now. But, I'm not for sure.

 

I'd love to hear any additional advice you may have!!! Thank you

Edited December 15, 2010 by Laurenbiz

[Guest Swifthounds]

I agree with the trainer that some crate training is in order. I'm sure the nip at Justin was pretty unsettling, but you'll always create new problems in a human/dog relationship when violence is the way one gets thier way. In this case it was your hound using violence toward Justin. He behaved inappropriately and it got him what he wanted, not going in the crate. That's a dangerous precedent to set, as the next time we wants something, he's more likely to nip to get it. I don't point this out to chastise you. Actually, it highlights the most fundamental tenet of training - rewarded behaviors will be repeated, un rewarded behaviors will diminish over time.

 

Feeding him in his crate is good. Treating only in the crate is good as well. Also, try randomly putting him in the crate for short periods (always potty him first before putting him in the crate so if he gets anxious, he won't have an accident) and reward him and let him back out when he's quiet. Ignore him in the crate and go about your other business. Work up to longer periods. Go outside or around the block (since outside is cold in most places this time of year).

 

Restart alone training and house training. Consider trying a DAP infuser, leaving a radio on (all the time except bedtime, lest you teach him that radio on means someone's leaving), or a supplement called Content Um (it's mostly B vitamins, helps with stress, and is widely available).

[Batmom]

If he still wets when in the crate, what's the point of crating him? He isn't peeing because he has too much freedom, and it sounds like the crate is a stressor.

 

I would also stop using the belly band. It's not working for you, and there's another stressor for the dog.

 

 

I would start with seeing a new vet -- maybe your adoption group could recommend one nearby? The current vet's notion that the dog couldn't have SA is weird, and it makes me wonder what else this vet doesn't know. Full urinalysis on first of the morning urine and fecal exam with the new vet. Preferably bloodwork also, just to make sure there isn't a physical problem.

 

If all is clear physically, then I would work on two things -- housetraining and alone training. For housetraining, I start out taking a dog out a LOT -- as in, first thing on waking, immediately before and after each meal, immediately before leaving the house and immediately upon arriving back home, last thing at night .... and every @ 1.5 hours when someone is home (other than overnight). Until the dog starts looking at me like I'm insane and is not having accidents in between, we go out and at least pee that often.

 

For alone training, I would start with exercise. Longer walk before you leave the house when the weather allows, play session indoors or in the backyard when it's too cold/rainy/icy to get in a good 40-60 minute walk. Then back to the beginning with alone training. Phase I - Get ready to leave, but don't leave -- 5 or 10 times in a row each session. Phase II - Leave for 1-3 minutes, come back for 5, repeat 5-10 times in a row each session. Phase III - Leave for 5-10 minutes, come back for 5, repeat several times in a row ...... The goal is to repeat each phase and not move on to the next until the dog is bored beyond belief with this and barely looks up when you leave and come back. If you do a search on "alone training" in this forum, you'll find more instructions. Of course you have to leave for real and for longer times during this process, and you may have some accidents; just do what you have to do but make sure to get in at least one training session each day.

 

 

 

P.S. Have you been able to see on your video/webcam what happens that leads up to him peeing in the house?

Edited December 15, 2010 by Batmom

[Guest Swifthounds]

I would also ditch the belly band. Whatever's going on is much more motivating than the band, and it'll become a bad habit over time.

 

The crate I'm not sure is a stressor, since it sounds like he's having accidnets no matter where he is. To the extent that the crate has BECOME a stressor, it's going to be the association he made between whining and getting out and then that crate = people leaving me. That's an association you want to break, lest one day when he's needs to stay at the vet overnight, he has an episode like the greyhound that was in the hospital the same night as my Comet - totally freaked out. Comet, OTOH, was snoozing like a baby. I though the other hound might be having anesthesia related confusion/stress, but apparently, he was like that from the moment they brought him into the hospital. When Comet came in, everyone groaned - until he walked into his kennel pawed his blankets into a round pile, flopped down and went to sleep.

 

I would also add - not to alarm you - but if further behavior items don't show improvement, you may want to do more medical tests. My first greyhound was 4 when I got him and in undiagnosed kidney failure that the vet didn't find/suspect, the foster home didn't note, and the group insisted was either SA or my bad dog skills. Unfortunately for me and for him, I was right.

[greytpups]

I also agree with not crating him if soiling in the crate occurs...why add more stress? It's still sounds like SA if it's not medical and that's where I would concentrate my efforts. I'd also seek out another vet, just for a different opinion. However, I wouldn't mention your current vet's diagnosis (or lack of It), I'd just see what another vet has to say about it.

 

Good luck, and hopefully you can get this figured out soon because it isn't normal behaviour.

 

 

[Guest NJgrey]

How long is he alone when he's having these accidents?

[Laurenbiz]

Hi everyone! Thanks for the responses so far. I will contact my rescue group and get names of some highly-recommended vets. The vet we took him to was recommended by two other Greyhound owners in our city. But, I agree that maybe he doesn't seem like the most-experienced Greyhound vet I can find!

 

If he still wets when in the crate, what's the point of crating him? He isn't peeing because he has too much freedom, and it sounds like the crate is a stressor.

 

No, he will tinkle in the kitchen/living room if we let him out of the crate, too. We tried a 'safe room' with blocking him off in the kitchen, and he still tinkled only in there.

 

The trainer suggested we get back to crate training and keep him in there to eventually diminish the soiling accidents since he should learn that he doesn't want to tinkle where he eats his meals and gets treats.

 

The belly band has worked two times more recently that he was in the crate. On Nov. 30th and Dec. 1st, (I'm keeping a log of his progress!,) he went the full day - both days - in the crate without an accident with his band on. (I have faith that, somehow, we can get over this problem with those two days as evidence! I just have no clue what was different those days than every other day so far! .)

 

 

P.S. Have you been able to see on your video/webcam what happens that leads up to him peeing in the house?

 

Now that he's back in the crate in the kitchen, our webcam cord can't stretch that far, so we don't watch him anymore! When we were able to watch him before crating him in the kitchen, he whined for about 10 or 15 minutes after we left, and then he really just relaxed afterward. We never, on video, caught him actually having the accident.

 

(This is actually what we told the vet, which made him tell us that Bernie doesn't have true SA because he relaxes that soon after we leave.)

 

Bernie is our first Greyhound - and my first dog. Lots of people tell us to just get another dog. But, we feel as though we're between a rock and a hard place. A second dog may correct this problem, but on the other hand, we really want to solve these problem behaviors with one dog before adding anything else into the mix!

[Laurenbiz]

How long is he alone when he's having these accidents?

 

 

 

The duration of time doesn't seem to matter. He will have an accident if we go to work for an 8-hour stretch, but he's also had accidents in the house/crate when we go run errands for only an hour on the weekend. Sometimes, even after he's had a walk and plenty of potty breaks, we will even go somewhere else but not really leave - like go to our basement or go to the garage to get something out of a car - and we'll come back inside to tinkle. (And, this is just a few minutes alone with an accident.)

 

But, he has gone two 8-hour full days alone without accidents. These two days were back-to-back, just a few weeks ago.

 

Sometime in November, he went for two one-hour stretches alone without accidents. And, just a few weeks after we got him in October, we went to a couple's anniversary party for two hours, and he had no accidents then.

 

(I keep a log of his progress, so I know all these details! )

Edited December 15, 2010 by Laurenbiz

[Guest NJgrey]

That's interesting. The soiling happens when you're not around, or at least when he thinks you're not around. He holds it when he can see you.

 

On the one hand it does sound like SA. That would mean he's getting so anxious that he loses control of his bladder. Sometimes. Other times he can hold it fine. If it is SA, however, I find it odd that he'd be fine and settle down sometimes and presumably not settle down other times.

 

On the other hand, maybe something is going on with him that's making him feel the urge to pee, but he knows he's not supposed to go in front of you so he holds it. When you're not around he feels more comfortable letting it loose.

 

That's a tough one. I would continue to look for any medical things going on with him that might be causing this. Get the opinion of another vet, and maybe even follow up with a behaviorist.

[MaryJane]

You may want to approach the problem from a different angle ... get one of the pee pads that they sell in stores and put in down in the middle of the kitchen and see if he will use that. It has some odor on it that should attract the dog to pee there.

 

As strange as it might sound, I had a similar problem with one of my greyhounds and once I put the pad down the dog didn't pee at all in the house anymore. In your case, if the dog does end up using it at least you have it contained to one area and that should be a decent temporary (or permanent) solution while you work on training the dog to understand the "outdoor for pee".

 

Good luck