Roscoe Shocked And Disappointed Me Today

[DevilDog]

Anyone who's met Roscoe knows that he is just a sweet, super laid back boy. He never gets into things he's not supposed to... he's just my good boy.

 

The past few days he's been doing something weird. He's eating stuff on the ground. He's munching goose poop whenever he can. He thinks its a game.. he's only on a 6 ft lead but I literally have to chase him to stop him from eating it. He hops around like he's on a pogo stick avoiding me as he grabs another poop.

 

But that's not the bad thing. He's taken a HUGE interest in a hole at the dog park. It was dug out by some other dogs, and Roscoe started digging furiously at it. Once he gets in there, he lays down and starts eating the soil. And he's REALLY into it. The first few times I told him NO and pulled him away. But he's become obsessed. He runs right back and starts eating out of the hole. Today I had had enough. I marched over while he was munching away and grabbed his collar to pull him out. He turned NASTY on me. The most serious growling I have EVER heard out of him. He was nearly snarling. Jason said he thought for sure Roscoe was going to bite me. I was shocked beyond belief. Roscoe has NEVER, EVER growled at me. He;s growled at other people if they tried to take a bone or something away, but I could always take something from him no problem.... but this? This was nastiness I've never seen in my good boy.

 

I'm not scared, I'm in charge and I don't take that crap. He was put in his place afterward.

 

But WHY did this happen? WHAT is in that hole that is SO high value to him?? I'm just a bit confused.

 

BTW, I filled the hole with large rocks to prevent digging. It worked but Roscoe is still eating some of the dirt around the hole...

[Valencia]

Could it be pica? Does he have any medical issues? Has he been wormed lately?

[GreytNut]

It may have been the sudden grab for his collar that triggered the reaction. It sounds like he was tuning you out, and when you actually came over and grabbed him it surprised the heck out of him. That could easily trigger a violent response.

 

The only time Tiny ever seriously bit me was when I suddenly reached out for his chest to push him away while he was crowding me (I was trimming Raven's nails and he wanted in on the action). I suspect that he thought I was going for his throat.

 

As for his fascination with the hole, your guess is as good as mine. It sounds like maybe it's just good digging and good eating. Mine are both obsessed with eating potting soil. No houseplant is safe. Mmmmmm, dirt.

[DevilDog]

His last medical evaluations were A-OK.

 

I suppose it's possible I scared him, but I'm not sure. I've grabbed his collar and scared him plenty of times. He always just has the "whatever" laid back attitude.

 

I really think it had something to do with the value of that hole.

[Guest TBSFlame]

Anyone who's met Roscoe knows that he is just a sweet, super laid back boy. He never gets into things he's not supposed to... he's just my good boy.

 

The past few days he's been doing something weird. He's eating stuff on the ground. He's munching goose poop whenever he can. He thinks its a game.. he's only on a 6 ft lead but I literally have to chase him to stop him from eating it. He hops around like he's on a pogo stick avoiding me as he grabs another poop.

 

But that's not the bad thing. He's taken a HUGE interest in a hole at the dog park. It was dug out by some other dogs, and Roscoe started digging furiously at it. Once he gets in there, he lays down and starts eating the soil. And he's REALLY into it. The first few times I told him NO and pulled him away. But he's become obsessed. He runs right back and starts eating out of the hole. Today I had had enough. I marched over while he was munching away and grabbed his collar to pull him out. He turned NASTY on me. The most serious growling I have EVER heard out of him. He was nearly snarling. Jason said he thought for sure Roscoe was going to bite me. I was shocked beyond belief. Roscoe has NEVER, EVER growled at me. He;s growled at other people if they tried to take a bone or something away, but I could always take something from him no problem.... but this? This was nastiness I've never seen in my good boy.

 

I'm not scared, I'm in charge and I don't take that crap. He was put in his place afterward.

 

But WHY did this happen? WHAT is in that hole that is SO high value to him?? I'm just a bit confused.

 

BTW, I filled the hole with large rocks to prevent digging. It worked but Roscoe is still eating some of the dirt around the hole...

 

That happens here. I think it is a wild animal peed in a spot and the hounds get very interested. Maybe a female dog peed in or near the hole. Maybe a dog in heat. Just a thought.

[Guest PhillyPups]

Whatever it was, he is a dog and had a dog's normal reaction via his instinct to your sudden grabbing his collar. I am confused by the "put him in his place" what does that mean? My dog's are always "in their place".

 

I hear goose poop is more irresistable than cat tootsie rolls. Just sayin. :lol

Edited December 11, 2010 by PhillyPups

[Guest KennelMom]

He was just being a dog. Maybe you caught him off guard/startled him with the collar grab in his dirt-eating mania. Sounds like you handled it well. It's easy for us to forget (esp w/a lot of the "easy keeper" greyhound personalities) that these are really dogs/animals. We get lulled in to a sense of trust and complacency.

 

As for the dirt eating and hole digging. Man oh man, a few on our crew have been OBSESSED with a spot in the yard. They dug a hole and keep eating the dirt. I've done everything I can to make that hole unappealing, but they dig right through. And they're sneaky about it b/c they've learned that I'll make them stop. Little bastards This is the first year we've had hole digging, but a couple of hounds have always been dirt lickers/eaters in the cold months. I have no idea why and it seems to be different dogs every year.

 

In a situation where a dog has a resource they are guarding or protecting, I think it's always preferable if you can move the dog away from it with your presence rather than a physical intervention (grab). Not always possible, but preferable (prevents a bite)

Edited December 11, 2010 by KennelMom

[DevilDog]

Yea, I spent a lot of time standing over the hole to prevent this, but I can't stand there all day!

[greyhead]

Standard bloodwork doesn't check cobalamin and folate, which can show whether he's actually absorbing the nutrients in his food. If checking on that isn't in the budget, you should still take seriously that you've seen a huge turn-about in Roscoe's behavior, which may be because he feels he absolutely has to eat that stuff cuz he feels like he's starving. I may be off base, but you're not describing something that's run-of-the-mill misbehavior for Roscoe.

[PrairieProf]

Wow, that hole was really, really high-value to him, huh? I haven't had Beth growl at me so I can't add to the advice you've gotten about that, but I'll just throw in that in cold weather she is absolutely obsessed with eating frozen poop (or dirt clods, if she thinks they're poop) at the dog park. It's very annoying, and of course I can't put a muzzle with stool guard on because, well, it's the dog park and she's not alone.

[Guest avadogner]

I agree with idea that some kind of very interesting animal marked the spot. It sounds like he is treating it like a SUPER high value resource. There must be something about it that triggers that "primal inner beast" Breeding has turned that beast into a cuddle couch potato but there's still a beast hidden in our sweet fur babies. It sounds like you handled it well and showed him who Alpha is and Alpha gets top choice. Do you happen to have any Nature's Miracle? Maybe pouring some scent denaturalizer on the spot will decrease his obsession with it.

-ava and augie's mum

[Guest avadogner]

I had major problems with my Ava eating her own poop. We had her worked up ($300 vet bill) and tried every poop eating treatment out there. It went on for 2 yrs. When we adopted our second hound, it all stopped. My vet said he thought it was most likely a boredom issue. Feeding high quality food yields poop that still has some appealing content to the dogs. My vet thinks it's a kind of Obbessive Compulisve Disorder for Dogs. Pretty interesting to me. I can't explain eating other animals poo but maybe they think they are neutalizing the interloper by removing it's offending scent marking poo. Who knows?

-ava and augie's mum

 

 

[Batmom]

Don't sweat over it. He's being a dog. Once they start, it's really hard to stop -- like pulling kleenex out of the box or stuffing out of a comforter. Bliss, which should not be interrupted by any mere human (or so they feel). Your best bet is to leash him up and wander him off elsewhere when he first starts. Could also invest in a big bottle of bitter apple to take with you to the dog park.

[christinepi]

I also always want to know exactly why these critters do what they do. Sometimes, I guess, they're the only ones who will ever know the reason. I feel this is just resource guarding and you and he just haven't been in a situation yet where this might come with such intensity. I was shocked, too, when my otherwise docile Tracker growled at me for the first time when I was trying to take away a bone from him that he found on the ground. It's as if he'd become a stranger all of a sudden, when really it's just an unprecedented situation that needs training.

 

Speaking of food guarding: you mention Roscoe growled at other people when they tried to take something away from him. It would seem he indeed isn't entirely clear on the concept of the inappropriateness of growling in that or other situations, so maybe he'll just need more lessons to understand that it's ok when people want to take something away from him that he wants also.

[Hubcitypam]

Today I had had enough. I marched over while he was munching away and grabbed his collar to pull him out. He turned NASTY on me.

I wasn't there and didn't see what happened, but just from the tone of the post maybe you were a bit abrupt / scared him / manahandled him a bit?

 

We all have times when we'd like to wring our dogs necks and maybe aren't so kind and gentle to them (as in pulling him out of the hole) as we should be. In response they are maybe not so kind and gentle to us as they should be....

 

Poodle does get obsessed with certain dirt at times. Dirt in the neighbors back yard around a certain tree was it for a while, the dirt in my neighbor's potted cacti on their porch (that was fun) and the dirt in my sisters potted indoor trees have have been cravings. In my sisters indoor plants we think fish oil emulison was what made the dirt attractive. The cacti I don't know.

[Guest kydie]

I agree with KennelMom,,,, all normal dog "stuff",,,, I think you are handeling it beautifully,, just keep on letting him know what you want from him

[Guest Swifthounds]

Not only did he probably get startled with your sudden grab for the collar while he was doing something clearly high value to him, but from what you describe, it followed an escalating pattern of him wanting something you didn't want him to have, you reacting, and him getting the item. As much as you may have been trying to discourage the undesirable behavior, you need to begin extinguishing behavior by making it impossible for him to do that behavior and then work up to him being able to control himself gradually.

 

Dogs don't know what we are thinking. They know what they enjoy and they know what we demonstrate to them is acceptable. Much of their lives is choosing between what they want in a situation and what you expect. Sometimes they get it wrong. When we send mixed messages, and it sounds like you did here, the dog doesn't have clearly defined expectations. From his view, your behavior came unexpectedly. We all know that dogs find their security in the predictability of their environment. If what you did took him off guard, then he's bound to react as he did.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Swifthounds

[Guest JenZ]

In my previous home, there was a spot in the backyard where the dogs would obsessively lick the soil- really strange. I've never seen them do it anywhere else at all.

 

Glad to know they are in good company!

 

Jen

[Guest Giselle]

Not only did he probably get startled with your sudden grab for the collar while he was doing something clearly high value to him, but from what you describe, it followed an escalating pattern of him wanting something you didn't want him to have, you reacting, and him getting the item. As much as you may have been trying to discourage the undesirable behavior, you need to begin extinguishing behavior by making it impossible for him to do that behavior and then work up to him being able to control himself gradually.

 

Dogs don't know what we are thinking. They know what they enjoy and they know what we demonstrate to them is acceptable. Much of their lives is choosing between what they want in a situation and what you expect. Sometimes they get it wrong. When we send mixed messages, and it sounds like you did here, the dog doesn't have clearly defined expectations. From his view, your behavior came unexpectedly. We all know that dogs find their security in the predictability of their environment. If what you did took him off guard, then he's bound to react as he did.

That is exactly right, especially the bolded part.

 

Punishment often doesn't work. And your situation showed exactly why not. Even though you punished him, led him away, and finally grabbed him by the collar, he *still* kept going back to the undesirable behavior. Why? Because punishment never tells a dog what TO do. It only tells the dog what NOT to do. So, how can you expect Roscoe to understand that he should avoid the hole or that it's no big deal? If you never teach him what to do, he won't do it. Simple as that!

 

I don't know what you mean by "putting him in his place". Dogs do not, as most of us have noticed, have a strict social hierarchy and don't require "putting into place". I've explained this before, but let's use hyenas as an example. Hyenas have a very strict matriarchal society and true dominance IS a large part of their social hierarchy. BUT this also means that hyena cubs are born precocial with fully erupted front teeth, unlike dogs and puppies(!). Minutes after birth, they fight with their siblings and their mothers to gain dominance (again, unlike dogs and puppies!). Once they are reintroduced back into their mother's pack, those cubs assume the same dominance level as their mothers. So, a 5-month old cub from a more dominant mother will have dominance and priority to access even over an older, stronger, but less dominant female. There have been studies on this matriarchal inheritance of dominance, and there are numerous videos of young cubs having "dominance" over older females. And how did they define "dominance"? Dominance is simply priority access to resources. That's all it is. And dominance is a social tool to mitigate aggression, not increase it.

 

So, when we try to apply "dominance" and "being alpha" in these cases, it just doesn't make sense. You're not fighting for your dog over priority access to a resource. In fact, if you were "truly alpha", you wouldn't need to display physical force or aggression at all, and neither would your dog. But there was aggression displayed here because this isn't an issue of dominance. That display of aggression was not him trying to dominate you. It was because, like mentioned before, there were escalations of miscommunication, frustration, and physical force on your part. Any normal dog would display aggression in that kind of environment. What you could have done instead was work on "Leave It" via Premack's Principle so that the "high value object" becomes more neutral and less valuable. The dog, then, learns self-control and learns to focus on you - without physical force involved. Let's have another macho guy with his GSD explain Premack's better than me

[Guest sweetpea]

Ahhhh, welcome back Giselle.

 

(I love your posts, so calm, so informative; you're my hero!)

 

Buzzy

I'll be grasshopper, you be master

[DevilDog]

I understand what everyone's saying here. Typically things are so easy with Roscoe, I was really just put off by this whole thing. I worked with him yesterday at the park when no one was there. Surprisingly, whenever he snuck over to the hole, I just said "Roscoe...!!" and he hopped away from it. thanks Giselle for the tips!

[Guest LindsaySF]

We have missed you Giselle!

[Guest Giselle]

Great!! Keep working on it! Eventually, Roscoe will learn that the hole is so unimportant and so low-value in comparison to you and all that YOU offer that he won't even go near it. I know it's not in their nature, necessarily, but I like when my dogs (regardless of breed) have a sort of "owner-centric" mentality. And even if it involves an independent breed, like greys, it's trainable! It makes life a lot more enjoyable for dog and human