Big D

[Guest Flyersmom]

My 6 year old has had diarrhea for over a month. I feel like we've tried everything and nothing is working. His symptoms are seemingly only the diarrhea. He's active, eating well (if not better than before) and sleeping normally. About a month ago we bought a new bag of Pro Plan with the shredded chicken which he had been on for some time. It seems to me that the diarrhea started around the time of the new bag, but I can't really determine that as the cause because he has been on hamburger or boiled chicken and rice since then. So here's what we've done:

 

2 fecal tests, no worms (he's also on Sentinel) or giardia

Bloodwork normal

He had one round of flagyl with no improvement.

Immodium not helping.

While waiting on the 2nd fecal results he was on a cocktail of flagyl (2nd round) and panacur and we did see a little improvement (formed, but soft). As soon as we stopped the panacur we were back to where we started.

Currently we are continuing the chicken and rice and giving him lomotil to help firm things up. We are 3 days into the lomotil and he goes less often, but still not even close to firm. We are also having a fecal pathology done in hopes of not needing a colonoscopy and those results are due tomorrow or Tuesday.

 

There has been some improvements (TMI warning). In the beginning it was more pudding with some mucus (no blood) and smelled. And he didn't seem to be able to always control it. Now it is just watery rice poop with much better odor (considering it's poop). No mucus. Seems to be better at controlling it.

 

If you made it this far, thanks for sticking with the novel. Any ideas are appreciated!

Jen

[greyhead]

After our Spencer had this problem for months, and he tested positive for intestinal malabsorption, we finally prevailed upon the vet to do not just another fecal test, but a culture and sensitivity test on his poop. Turned out he had two strains of Clostridium perfringens, and it took all three recommended antibiotics to clear it. So I'd vote for doing a C&S. You definitely have our best wishes.

 

 

[duncan41]

Didn't I read in another thread that eliminating rice and substituting pasta or potatoes helped to resolve a similar problem in another hound? Adding a fiber cap? Prebiotics and/or probiotics? Hope the tests point to a resolution. This is not fun for anyone.

[greyhead]

Now that I reread your post, I see the reference to a "fecal pathology." That's probably what I know as C&S. I just hope they test for enough bugs to find the right one. Our lab only tests for three at a time, usually E. coli, salmonella, and another one I forget. I requested they include the Clostridium because I read an article by a vet on the net with a decription that really sounded like what we were experiencing. (Unfortunately, it isn't out there anymore, so I can't cite it for you.) But I hope the pathology finds the problem.

 

I will just add that L-glutamine is helpful in healing and, therefore, firming. Apparently, it messes with the bacteria's cell membrane in a way that discourages their reproduction. It's just an aid and won't replace antibiotics, of course! But we found it worthwhile so I thought I'd mention it.

 

It's encouraging that the Flagyl helped. It helped us too before the C&S, but it hadn't been given long enough or at a high enough dose. It turned out to be one of the three a/b's that the C&S showed would work, but the two other a/b's were needed also -- maybe because we had two strains of Clostridium to deal with? But then we wasted a lot more time on beet pulp and pumpkin than you have, so hopefully you pup will heal up sooner and more easily! Please keep us posted, as I take a personal interest in cases like yours and care very much what happens.

 

ETA: Our dog wound up intolerant of a lot of carbs and could really only deal with sweet potato, no grains. So paying attention to that aspect of things may help a lot. A lot of dogs don't handle white rice, particularly.

Edited October 17, 2010 by greyhead

[Hubcitypam]

WELLLLLLLLLLL, you know what I'm going to say...

With Rex it was never getting anything out of him I could pick up as opposed to hose in. I tried a plethora of high end foods. We fecaled, panacured and tested and retested him within an inch of his life. We checked for giradia and something else that began with a C whos name escapes me and he had a standing prescription for Flagyl. I totally know what you mean by lack of mucus seeming to be a good sign.

 

The first year I lived here I came home from work to find my kitchen completely covered in bloody poop from a 90# dog. We went back to the vet yet again with no results. I put him on boiled chicken and rice for about 5 days while I continued my incessant searching on the internet and asking the help at Canine Commissary for suggestions.

 

Then I just snapped and tossed that green bag of Iams I'd fed for years before people on forums like this said it was crap. If the $2+ a pound food didn't work why should I spend the money? I started mixing it with his rice and chicken and in 24 hours he was firming up well. In about 3 days you could bounce his poops off the sidewalk. Same thing happened with my foster Elvis. Iams is all that keeps him firm.

 

Good grief, I feel like my epitath will say "I just tossed a green bag of Iams in the cart". But I've shared it too many times on this list and another GH forum over the last 8 years and had so many people write and thank me including one from Germany) that there has to be something to it.

 

BTW Poodle eats Wellness Core reduced fat for his diabetes, so it's not like I'm just a cheap arse.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Perhaps ask your vet about Tylosin rather than Flagyl or Panacur.

 

My vet prefers this to long-term or heavy use of Flagyl. (At that link, scroll down to Side Effects and read about the dangers of what they call "long-term moderate- to high-dose therapy as to treat difficult bacterial infections".) My vet hasn't seen a lot of adverse reactions to Metronidazole, but the ones he has seen were connected to long-term use or high dosages. Since my Sam has had frequent spells of diarrhea, my vet no longer will prescribe Flagyl for him.

 

The one drawback to Tylosin is that supposedly it tastes awful. (It's a powder.) My Sam isn't too fussy. I could put the powder on a slice of cheese and fold the slice down so all the powder was contained inside. Sam gulped that without a problem.

 

But other users have had to get empty capsules from a pharmacist and make their own pills for their dogs. But people say that if the dog tastes the Tylan/Tylosin in their food, even the hungriest dog would rather go hungry than eat the food. You don't want to spoil an entire meal's worth of food by making it unpalatable.

[Guest Flyersmom]

Many, many thanks for all your responses!

 

As of tonight the lomotil seems to be kicking in a bit. However he only had one movement today and a lot of false alarms (whined to go out every 1-2 hours) so that's annoying. The vet recommended I take him from 3x a day to 2 if I noticed a long stretch of inactivity. So that's what I did. Hopefully tomorrow we'll be a little more regular. I also cut back on the rice since it's not all getting digested.

 

All the food comments are very interesting to me. I had purchased Nature's Recipe Chicken, Sweet Potato and Pumpkin and was putting just a little in with his chicken and rice last week. I thought I noticed an ever so slight improvement (the fact that I am noticing slight poop variations at all makes me think I need another hobby ), but the vet suggested that I take him off of it in case we need to explore a food allergy issue. I am not opposed to Iams. In fact, I have read in several places that sometimes the cheaper dog food is better in that it is not so rich for their sensitive tummies. We tried all sorts of different foods before ending back up at the Pro Plan last time he had diarrhea. Of course, that time he had the runs was due to hookworms. I wonder if I should try the Nature's Recipe again?

 

I made a note of the Tylosin and will definitely ask about it when I talk to the vet after the pathology comes back. I am really hoping that you are right, greyhead, and that there is a culture involved. Since the Panacur and Flaygl seemed like they were sort of working maybe there is something really stubborn in there that will require additional antibiotics. I asked the vet what we were looking for when he suggested the pathology and frankly, my kids were bugging me and I couldn't really concentrate, but he listed several things and I hadn't heard of any of them nor would I be able to spell them if I remembered!

[KF_in_Georgia]

If you haven't been doing so, be sure you're overcooking the rice. It'll be easier to digest if it's nearly mush, and not such nice, pristine grains. His stomach may be having trouble with the smooth, outer hull of the rice grains, but he'll do better with the softer inside.

 

Before I knew about overcooking the rice, I had a girl with a touchy stomach throw up her rice breakfast nearly 8 hours after she ate it. The grains were completely undigested.

 

If your boy still has trouble digesting the rice, you might want to move to potatoes to see if he does better with them.

Edited October 18, 2010 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

What about switching to a raw diet, single protein for a while? Such as raw chicken quarters, or raw beef? Get rid of the rice and other cooking and such and just give some good ol' meat. I am not suprised that your vet hasnt recommended this route, but there are many people here that rave about a raw diet. Personally I feed my three (and fosters) kibble and raw. One meal a day 3 times a week is raw (either turkey necks, or chicken quarters, rarely venison when friends get a kill).

[Guest Flyersmom]

Ok, took a while but I finally have an update.

The vet called and left a message yesterday and the fecal pathogen came up negative. Now, while I am thrilled not to have some major issue, this puts us exactly nowhere. So the vet's suggestion was to fast Flyer for 24 hrs and begin the i/d diet from Science Diet. I guess it is really bland and will help rule out a food issue. I am waiting for a call back to find out if we should go forward with a culture and sensitivity test as suggested by greyhead and I am researching the raw diet to see what that is all about. So basically I've got nothin'!

[mychip1]

WELLLLLLLLLLL, you know what I'm going to say...

With Rex it was never getting anything out of him I could pick up as opposed to hose in. I tried a plethora of high end foods. We fecaled, panacured and tested and retested him within an inch of his life. We checked for giradia and something else that began with a C whos name escapes me and he had a standing prescription for Flagyl. I totally know what you mean by lack of mucus seeming to be a good sign.

 

The first year I lived here I came home from work to find my kitchen completely covered in bloody poop from a 90# dog. We went back to the vet yet again with no results. I put him on boiled chicken and rice for about 5 days while I continued my incessant searching on the internet and asking the help at Canine Commissary for suggestions.

 

Then I just snapped and tossed that green bag of Iams I'd fed for years before people on forums like this said it was crap. If the $2+ a pound food didn't work why should I spend the money? I started mixing it with his rice and chicken and in 24 hours he was firming up well. In about 3 days you could bounce his poops off the sidewalk. Same thing happened with my foster Elvis. Iams is all that keeps him firm.

 

Good grief, I feel like my epitath will say "I just tossed a green bag of Iams in the cart". But I've shared it too many times on this list and another GH forum over the last 8 years and had so many people write and thank me including one from Germany) that there has to be something to it.

 

BTW Poodle eats Wellness Core reduced fat for his diabetes, so it's not like I'm just a cheap arse.

Our EZ was on the Iams Low Residue (until the recent recall - and they have temporarily switched him to another IAMS formula). It is the ONLY food that he can eat that we have found that keep his stools firm. I do not have my other pups on it, but for him, it seems to work. The low residue is one of their veterinary formulas, and until it is back on the shelves, your vet might be able to let you know the equivalent which is what EZ is on now.

[greyhead]

O'k, took a while but I finally have an update.

The vet called and left a message yesterday and the fecal pathogen came up negative. Now, while I am thrilled not to have some major issue, this puts us exactly nowhere. So the vet's suggestion was to fast Flyer for 24 hrs and begin the i/d diet from Science Diet. I guess it is really bland and will help rule out a food issue. I am waiting for a call back to find out if we should go forward with a culture and sensitivity test as suggested by greyhead and I am researching the raw diet to see what that is all about. So basically I've got nothin'!

I'm inferring that the pathology evaluation was done by cytology, where they put a fecal smear on a slide and see if there are any bacteria there that shouldn't be there. The problem, as you may know, is that even bacteria that are supposed to be represented in the intestine, like Spencer's Clostridium, can overgrow beyond being a normal population. When they do, they secrete a toxin. That toxin causes problems. Strictly speaking, the orthodox approach is to send a sample to Texas A&M, where the animal GI lab tests for the toxin. It's expensive and unnecessary. A competent lab can count how many bacteria grow in a culture and see if that number is within normal limits or not. That's what we did and it worked fine, perhaps because Spencer's level was "way, way, way beyond what's expected," according to the lab.

 

By the way, it costs somewhere between one and two hundred dollars, and you can just tell the vet that you want it done. You don't need permission, really, although obviously you need their cooperation. I had to endure some eye-rolling by my vet's staff, but by then my dog was so sick I didn't care. Turns out that one particular strain of Clostridium can result in gangrene and death, so I don't know why they treat this so casually. I will say that when the results came back, I was accorded the highest level of respect from the vet and her staff. Not that that is what's important, but it was interesting and not unwelcome.

 

One-third of Spencer's diet is raw. But if you keep changing foods and this episode leads to IBD, as it did for Spencer because it took too many months to get the SIBO under control, your dog may develop an inflammatory response to so many proteins that it will become a challenge to find things to feed him. In our house it's no chicken, no beef, no bison, no buffalo, no rabbit, no salmon, and no pork. So please know that I do not mean to tell you what to do. I just want to help you understand the possible implications of the various choices. And let me add that neither Spencer nor I would have gotten through it without the support we got on Greytalk!

[Guest MyBoys]

A friend of mine had her greys on Pro Plan and experienced the same problem, all of her greys had the big D. Turns out that ProPlan had changed their formula which was written very small on the bag and she didn't notice. This was just about a month ago also.

Edited October 23, 2010 by MyBoys