No One Knows What's Wrong...

[NeylasMom]

 

@NeylasMom — Thanks so much for all this information! I just looked at his paperwork, and the lyme test was for heartworm/lyme/erlichia as you said, so I think I will send bloodwork out for the others. He's currently on flagyl along with Amoxicillan. He was also given Pyrantel Pamoate Dewormer when we got him... not sure if that would wipe out any worms he had or not... probably not.

Also, they did a gram stain a few weeks ago and said that there wasn't an overabundance of bacteria on that...

The pyrantel pamoate is effective against hookworms as well. He may not need another course of wormer given that he's had both that and the proper dose of Panacur and it seems like bases for bacteria are pretty well covered.

 

 

Also... he's currently on a diet of lean beef and boiled rice, and it seems like part of the rice is coming out in his stool now (yellow balls). This happened the last time he was on boiled rice as well... so I think that is kind of strange.

He may be a dog that cannot tolerate grains. Carbs aren't part of a natural diet for dogs - they're simply required in order to make a processed kibble that has a shelf-life. So for our convenience, our dogs get an inappropriate diet. There are options though - the first is a better, not best option imo: a grain-free kibble. They contain potato as the carb base instead, which is still not ideal for a dog, but may be better for a dog that is struggling with grains. These diets tend to be richer (higher in protein) and therefore you often need to feed less and introduce slowly. Another option would be a home-cooked diet. A third would be raw. The latter is often very effective for dogs with IBS, but it's a personal choice not everyone wants to make.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

We're introducing California Natural's new line of grain free to see if that helps him. However yesterday was only the first day of the slow introduction.

 

Today on his walk he was really weird. He kept spinning around and biting at his stomach, which he's been doing more often since this all started. He normally loves all people, but when he saw a woman today, the hair on his back stood on end. He also flat out refused to poop, and I know he has to go.

[greyhead]

We're introducing California Natural's new line of grain free to see if that helps him. However yesterday was only the first day of the slow introduction.

 

Today on his walk he was really weird. He kept spinning around and biting at his stomach, which he's been doing more often since this all started. He normally loves all people, but when he saw a woman today, the hair on his back stood on end. He also flat out refused to poop, and I know he has to go.

Wow, okay, that rings bells. I haven't even read through the last few posts, but here goes. Spencer did that before he was diagnosed as being "loaded with hookworm." He would bite at his side sometimes when lying down. And he'd snap his head back toward his side as though something sudden had happened back there. When walking he'd sometimes actually jump away, like something had bitten him. As you may know, each hookworm has six teeth. Apparently, the dog can feel them. And they can do quite a bit of damage, carving chanels in the intestines. I know more about this than I want to, but don't get me started. Get the medicine! Hit them with it aggressively, not conservatively. And then put him on a monthly wormer like Interceptor that at least helps control hookworm.

 

By the way, especially with an IBD dog, you can use Drontal, a pill, instead of the Panacur. The Drontal is easier to administer to a sensitive eater. It's a little pricey but worth it. Some smart people actually follow Panacur treatment with Drontal just to make sure they get any worms that may have developed resistance to Panacur.

Unfortunately, hookworms encase themselves in cysts, in the body and in the soil, and can be impossible to get rid of totally and forever. But you have to keep trying. That's why we do Drontal twice a year in addition to monthly Interceptor.

Edited June 30, 2010 by greyhead

[Guest CharlieHorse]

The last fecal they did (about a month or so ago) came back negative... knowing that it's only 50% effective, though. Plus, when they first diagnosed him with hooks, they said it was "the worst case they've seen in a while."

 

The vet said it could also be whips... do they also have teeth, to bring on this type of reaction?

[greyhead]

The last fecal they did (about a month or so ago) came back negative... knowing that it's only 50% effective, though. Plus, when they first diagnosed him with hooks, they said it was "the worst case they've seen in a while."

 

The vet said it could also be whips... do they also have teeth, to bring on this type of reaction?

I was modifying my post above while you were writing this one, so please read it again. I don't know if whips have teeth, but I don't think so. My (current) vet and I never trust a negative fecal! It never means that there are no worms; it only means that any worms that may be present are not shedding eggs at that time. The fecals only detect eggs, and eggs are only shed from time to time, on a cycle. Especially if it was the worst case they'd seen in a while...well, you get the idea.

 

The first two vets that examined Spencer for his abdominal rumbling and everything produced negative fecals. The third vet only did another fecal as part of a standard initial exam and luckily found them. Beyond luck, he also had equipment that makes it more likely that eggs will be found, as it spins the material. Most places don't have equipment that expensive, though labs do.

 

It sounds like hooks to me. As others have mentioned, there may be more than that going on also. And it does sound like the hooks have resulted in some intestinal damage, which makes infection and IBD more likely. An ultrasound may still be a good idea. But treating the hooks may really help the dog and, most importantly, will not hurt him even if I'm wrong. Not treating the hooks, on the other hand, if they're present will most certainly hurt the dog.

[NeylasMom]

Quick hijack -

 

Greyhead, are hooks visible when they're shed? My foster has had ongoing stomach issues and that biting thing is something he does too. He's only started it in the last couple of months though, with the season change and he does snap at bugs, so I assumed that was it. We have dewormed him with Panacur but 3 weeks apart, not 4.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

I don't think they are visible to the naked eye, because when Charlie first had a really bad infestation of them, we never saw anything strange prior.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

Has anyone ever had tapeworms in their doggie? Could that have been what the seeds were?

[duncan41]

FWIW: dead tape worm looks like rice and the live tape worms that I have seen are flat, white and approximately 1/2 to 3/4" long.

[Anne]

@Anne — I didn't know that about Pepto... I will switch over to the kao-pectate and see if that helps at all. Is it for the same thing as Pepto (I'd assume it is)

 

Kao-pec is an anti diarrhea and should work just fine. The other thing with Pepto, it tends to make the stools black so you don't know if the dog (or human) is bleeding or if it's the pepto. I don't like it for humans and won't give it to dogs either.

The Kao-pec was probably less than 20$ at the feed store, great stuff, a little messy to give, but works well.

[NeylasMom]

I am just noticing the pepto stuff now. Pepto is okay to give to dogs, it just shouldn't be used with dogs with bleeding disorders b/c the salicylate component can thin the blood.

[greyhead]

Quick hijack -

 

Greyhead, are hooks visible when they're shed? My foster has had ongoing stomach issues and that biting thing is something he does too. He's only started it in the last couple of months though, with the season change and he does snap at bugs, so I assumed that was it. We have dewormed him with Panacur but 3 weeks apart, not 4.

Interesting question, because my understanding is that hooks are not visible to the naked eye. Yet the eggs are visible if shed in fecals. I don't know if they use a microscope to find the eggs. I'll poke around and see what I can find out. http://peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2090&aid=747 Okay, this site says adult hookworms are 1/2 to 3/4 inches long but are rarely seen because their teeth are pretty well sunk into the intestinal wall. The eggs are viewed microscopically.

Edited July 1, 2010 by greyhead

[greyhead]

Our internist as well as some people on GT recommends against giving anti-diarrheals of any kind to dogs whose diarrhea has lasted more than a couple days. Ongoing diarrhea is pathological and whatever is in there -- germs, toxins or worms -- needs to get out! Just have to find the underlying cause and treat that.

 

If you google "hookworm in dogs" you'll find some pictures of hookworms. Very interesting to see. Sorry I can't just copy them here, but it's not allowed.

[Guest MyBoys]

@Anne — I didn't know that about Pepto... I will switch over to the kao-pectate and see if that helps at all. Is it for the same thing as Pepto (I'd assume it is)

 

Kao-pec is an anti diarrhea and should work just fine. The other thing with Pepto, it tends to make the stools black so you don't know if the dog (or human) is bleeding or if it's the pepto. I don't like it for humans and won't give it to dogs either.

The Kao-pec was probably less than 20$ at the feed store, great stuff, a little messy to give, but works well.

 

I have used Kao-pec and it is a bit messy, what I did was cut the end of a plastic dropper to make the opening bigger, it took a few dropper fulls to get it all in but there was hardly no mess, I also did it outside so when he shook his head it didn't go all over my kitchen.

[RobinM]

My Beau is an IBD dog, diagnosed by open abdominal surgery Jan. 09. His weight went from a svelte 65 pounds to 52.4

It was horribly frightening. IBD by definiton is inflammamtion. Something must be given to bring the inflammation down. Beau was put on 50mg of pred/50 mg of immuran 3 weeks later and just as important, he was put on a novel protein= something he has never ever eaten before. That was white fish. JUST white fish. To this day, the only protein he is eating is poached tilapia. His kibble is prescription z/d and he eats the wet z/d too. As a treat, he gets the z/d cookies and we bought a dehydrator and we make 10 pounds of dried tilapia fish sticks for him a week. Anything else will put him right back to where you are right now.

 

His pred has been lowered and he is off the imruan but it was because of that combo that we got our Beau back.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

The weird thing is that the pred is what brought all those seeds out... plus he's on flagyl and amoxicillin right now and it's not really helping... plus we changed his food. We basically did everything you would do to stop an IBD flare up and it hasn't helped

 

I called the vet and we're going to try another dose of panacur. Let's hope that it helps!

[RobinM]

How long and how much pred? what are seeds? have you looked into budesonide? The pred did not work alone without the imuran. But, Ipersonally would not give any dog pred without a definite dx of IBD.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

The pred was for around 2 weeks... it wasn't for IBD, it was for kennel cough (which he got from the vaccination).

 

We have no idea what the seeds were. He was doing fine... stools were normal, cough went away, and then 3 days after those seeds came out he had a ton of bloody D. The vet didn't want to look at them at the time because he seemed fine

 

Are Budesonide and Imuran other medications that went along with it? The first time he had a flare up he was on flagyl... but taking a probiotic every day seemed to help more.

[Guest GoingRogue]

Just wanted to drop in to let you know we will be praying for a diagnosis, treatment and quick recovery for Charlie. Hang in there and best wishes.

[Guest houndog990]

the group i volunteer for have had dogs in with a very very resistant strain of worms. my DVM is aggressive in treating them. we do a 7 day course of pancur, followed three weeks later w/ another 7 day course, then 3 week after a dose of drontal.

i personally find drontal not very effective for hooks or whips.

BTW we got a dog in that was vomiting 5-6 x day for YEARS. one vet put him on pepcid(?) and DX him w/ "acid reflux." another vet wanted to scope him because he said he had 'pockets in the esophagus'.

poor dog just had worms.

good luck!

amy

[Guest CharlieHorse]

Thanks guys! I'll be sure to update if this Panacur treatment helps, and if it does, we are definitely going to go the aggressive route in treating Charlie.

 

I just don't understand those seeds though... some looked like pumpkin seeds (maybe a little darker brown) and others were shaped like m&m's (not m&m's though...

[NeylasMom]

Thanks guys! I'll be sure to update if this Panacur treatment helps, and if it does, we are definitely going to go the aggressive route in treating Charlie.

 

I just don't understand those seeds though... some looked like pumpkin seeds (maybe a little darker brown) and others were shaped like m&m's (not m&m's though...

Have you x-rayed his stomach and intestines? I only have one other idea, which is that he ate something inappropriate before he came to you and it's in his stomach. There are quite a few people on here who can tell you stories about dogs vomiting items that had been in their dogs stomachs for months. This is probably going out on a limb, but what if he ate something like a bean bag? I know, really on a limb here. Things like that don't always show up on x-rays though, especially if they're cloth but maybe on an ultrasound?

 

Anyway, I think given what you've more recently said about his case of hooks, Panacur is your friend and you can go from there. If you get weird poo again, take a photo. I know, gross, but even if your vet won't look at it, I bet we will.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

Have you x-rayed his stomach and intestines? I only have one other idea, which is that he ate something inappropriate before he came to you and it's in his stomach. There are quite a few people on here who can tell you stories about dogs vomiting items that had been in their dogs stomachs for months. This is probably going out on a limb, but what if he ate something like a bean bag? I know, really on a limb here. Things like that don't always show up on x-rays though, especially if they're cloth but maybe on an ultrasound?

 

Anyway, I think given what you've more recently said about his case of hooks, Panacur is your friend and you can go from there. If you get weird poo again, take a photo. I know, gross, but even if your vet won't look at it, I bet we will.

 

Yes, he had an x-ray, but it was months ago. That's how they knew his intestines were inflamed, but his stomach was full at the time because the x-ray was unexpected, so we didn't really get a good look in there. Hmm... never thought of bean bag, though... that's a good idea!

 

Haha, I actually did take photos, only because I'm such a hypochondriac and though it would be good to have documentation of it. They're pretty blurry though

[Anne]

Haha, I actually did take photos, only because I'm such a hypochondriac and though it would be good to have documentation of it. They're pretty blurry though

 

Can you post the pics?

 

And honestly, I'd be more than a little upset if my dog pooped something odd or unusual and unidentifiable and my vet refused to even look at it. I'd not have liked that at all.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

Here they are.. *Warning: not for the faint of heart*

 

stool

seeds

 

Honestly, I was just so happy that he was finally doing better that I didn't make a big deal about it... although now I wish I had...