Izzy's Gi Troubles

[Guest SillyIzzysMom]

We adopted Izzy about 5 months ago and she has had GI troubles since day one.

 

She came to us on treatment for Erlichia so at first we assumed the runny stools were caused by the antibiotics. But, she went off of them and didn't improve.

 

She's been wormed (and wormed and wormed) with Panacur--because hookworms keep reappearing in her stool even after many many wormings. So, now (after a six day panacur treatment) told us to give her her Interceptor twice a month to keep killing off whatever keeps them coming back (he did some research and aparently some dogs get the eggs in their muscles when they're puppies?? and keep shedding them through adulthood?? It was something weird like that.) Anyway he doesn't really seem to think that it's the worms giving her the diahrea anyway--at least not the total reason.

 

So we've tried it all. Switching foods (sometimes seems to help at first and then right back down hill) we've tried Flagl, metrodiazole, tylan, sulfasalizine while on Prednisone. . .sometimes she improves a bit then right back sick agan. I'm sure there are meds we've tried that I can't remember. My kitchen cabinet looks like a pharmacy. The best the vet can figure is IBD. . .but we switched her to that prescription venison and potato just to try to rule out a food alergy. No improvement.

 

Last week she had been on pred for two weeks (because the vet kept thinking that even though we had done several stints on pred, maybe we hadn't left her on it long enough to really calm things down) Then she got to where she started refusing food all together and vomiting--so he did a quick taper off the pred--no improvement. He also gave her an injection of something and some pills for me to give her for nausea. She still seemed only slightly interested in food. . .and after another day started refusing food all together again (on a weekend of course).

 

I boiled up some hamburger (rinsed the fat) and gave it to her with brown rice and she ate it up happily--yeah! Her poo was still runny--now it was runny and ricey (just went right through her). She still seems interested in eating this but less than she did Saturday--and she threw up today and last night (and this morning) her stool was just mucusy bloody liquid--sigh.

 

She is so pitiful. She wouldn't even sleep in our room last night--she wanted to stay in the kitchen on her bed near the dog door (I guess she knew she'd be up several times at night!) I'm at the point now, where I think we're going to have to take her to the A&M vet in College Station to get her looked at--they can do a biopsy and decide for sure if it's IBD. I don't know what to do--I am at my wit's end. It's like she's gotten sicker and sicker since we've gotten her--I feel like such a bad dog mom. my husband's pissed at the vet bills (oh my god) and I feel like all we've done is make this dog sicker than when we got her.

 

The vet has done blood work--all normal. He sees her and checks her temp when she's having an especially bad flareup--normal. Her stools have come back with hook worm a few times be we have just treated the crap out of that and will give her the twice/month heartworm to keep those in check.

 

And I know some of you will say that I should switch to raw. . .but to be frank, I know me and I just can't imagine I could keep that up. And I have tried some slippery elm--but haven't really done it on a consistant enough basis to say that it works or doesn't. Have tried adding pumpkin, Metamusil, have tried pro-biotics. . .and nothing works consisitantly. I keep trying to chart the sick times and the well times to figure out what of the millions of things we have tried have really helped. . .but there's not a great, consistant pattern. What seems to help at first (switching foods for instance or being on prednisone) end up not helping in the long run--and not helping when we try them again.

 

So I'm throwing this out there...is this ringing any bells with anybody? What have we not tried that we should?

 

I have had several dogs in my life (and we have a Golden Retriever as well right now) and I have never, ever had a situation like this. I had a dog, years ago, who didn't tolerate chicken based foods, but he did fine on lamb and rice. That's been my sum-total of dogs with digestive issues. This one is just killing me. I'm so worried, I can hardly think about it without getting a knot in my throat.

 

 

[Batmom]

I feel for you and your pupper.

 

Has she had an abdominal x-ray/ultrasound?

 

Have you and your vet considered trying Hill's Z/D Ultra prescription food? It's a better choice than the other "hypoallergenic" foods because it uses preprocessed proteins -- they're broken down so the body won't recognize them as allergens.

[Guest mandm]

Sounds extremely familiar to the situation I went through 3 years ago when I got my greyhound. He was treated for Babesia and all improved except his stomach. Tried eveything, including Z/D Ultra and homecooked, meat only. It kept him alive, but just barely. The only thing that really worked was raw, lean raw. I was real reluctant because I didn't want to be handling raw meat all the time. But it fixed the problem and I have gotten used to it.

 

I totally understand you not wanting to do raw. You might want to try cooked meat only. For my dog, it was carbs that he had the most problems with, any carbs. So I fed him only cooked meat, well drained of fat, with bone meal added for calcium. It was expensive and time-consuming to cook up so much meat. I would have kept cooking, but he started reacting to even the cooked meat. So I resorted to raw, since it is the easiest to digest, and my dog is now thriving.

[Guest Spencers_Greyt]

Spencer just went through his 2nd bout of GI troubles this year just last week. The vets could not find anything wrong with him so they just treated the symptoms. I talked to a Greyhound friend of mine and she said her Grey had this problem several years ago and her vet told her to put her on a high fiber diet which included Science Diet Lite (it has the highest fiber content of any food found at Petsmart) adding oat bran and yogurt to the food. The vet thinks that by keeping the digestive system moving, ie. lots of pooping, it ensures that nothing is caught in the intestines to "sour". After spending 2k this last time on Spencer, I'm willing to try anything so I am combining his old food with the new SD Lite and will eventually wean him off the old. I haven't bought any oat bran yet but I just need to stop by a Whole Foods or Sprouts to get that. Since my own vets can't figure it out I don't see any harm in trying a high fiber diet to see how Spencer does on that.

[Guest mandm]

MandM here again. Too many similarities. I forgot to mention in my original response that my greyhound also had worms, Hookworms positively ID'd and suspected Whipworms (never Positively identified). Lots of Panacur and year round Interceptor seems to have fixed the problem. I think that maybe the heavy worm infestation may have permanently weakened the intestines. Don't really know.

[Guest ChancesMom]

I don't know if dogs can get Crohns or not but the symptoms sound familiar to those of humans with Crohns.

[Guest SillyIzzysMom]

Thanks for all the responses (public and private). I talked to the vet today and there's one more thing we haven't tried. . . apparently, when he did the big digestive panel bloodwork, Izzy's pancreatic enzyme profile came back as borderline--not really abnormal but outside of normal range as well. So he wants to try her on some kind of enzyme that I could give her before meals to see if that helps. My vet is out of that enzyme right now so they're trying to track some down at another local vet for me to pick up today. (Our vet won't get any more in until tomorrow and I think the fact that I was crying on the phone with him got him to try to find me some today--I suspect he now thinks that not only does Izzy need a GI specialist, but I need a therapist. Hahaha! )

 

You know we never did the hills special diet thing--we did try high fiber (that purina prescription OM for over weight pets) and the low fiber (that prescription EN for digestive problems) and nothing seemed to help much. Probably, of the two I would say the extra fiber helped the most. . .at least the poo was a taller cow-pie (gross, I know).

 

He also told me to keep up with the meat/rice for now--but to use chicken breasts rather than hamburger since it's leaner.

 

You guys really think I should try feeding raw before we go do the whole biopsy thing? Sounds to me like the last thing I should feed someone having bloody diahrea and vomiting would be a raw chicken leg. . .but what do I know?

 

So thank you--keep the suggestions coming. I'll try anything. And I'll let y'all know if these enzymes help. . .or whatever helps. I need to figure something out before we leave for big family vacation the middle of July for a week. Izzy (and Ruby) have reservations at the nicest boarding kennel (nice big indoor/outdoor kennels) but I can't imagine how that's going to work out with her sick. And I could leave her at the vet, but leaving a dog with bad diahrea in a cage at the vet for a week (with their limited turnouts) seems super cruel as well. Sigh.

 

[Guest mandm]

If it were me, I'd try the enzymes before raw, but I'd try raw before scoping, because that is super expensive and requires a 48 hour fast -- I'm guessing she is already pretty skinny.

 

My greyhound's TI1 also came back askew -- showed low cobalamin & low folate. I supplement with those B vitamins. It seems to help. Some dogs really benefit from B12 injections. I was able to bring up my greyhound's levels with oral supplementation alone.

 

ETA: I think some vets like to save the Hill's Z/D Ultra as the last resort. You can't get any more hypoallergenic than that. Maybe that is why he/she hasn't recommended it yet. But it sounds like maybe you are there. It unfortunately didn't work very well for my dog, but it might for yours.

Edited June 30, 2008 by mandm

[kudzu]

... apparently, when he did the big digestive panel bloodwork, Izzy's pancreatic enzyme profile came back as borderline--not really abnormal but outside of normal range as well. So he wants to try her on some kind of enzyme that I could give her before meals to see if that helps.

As someone who went through some pretty bizarre GI probs with a prior dog & then colitis with one of my Greys I totally understand how upsetting this is. I've been on the phone in tears about it before since I was watching a dog waste away. Thinking back to all the testing & research I did a few years ago your description had me thinking of a few different possibilities beside the more obvious ones of parasites, IBD or tick diseases:

 

1. EPI-exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (that may be why your vet suggested the enzymes)

2. SIBO-small intestinal bacterial overgrowth--another poster mentioned TLI, folate & cobalamin. That testing is used to help diagnose SIBO. Would think in all the testing you've already checked for that & Tylan plus B12 injections should have helped. BTW, Tylan can be given for extended periods if needed. But if things got worse again even while on Tylan I guess that's not a logical thing to try.

3. Addison's--Atypical Addison's can show normal electrolytes on a blood chem. That idea may sound like it's out in left field but you'd be astounded the wide range of initial symptom Addison's dogs present with.

 

Hope very much the enzymes work. Think I'd go that route first, then try a raw that involves well ground meat or a prepackaged freeze dried raw not the more common whole chicken wings or backs. Consider an ACTH stimulation test for Addison's/Cushing's then finally try scoping. In the mean time, maybe the interceptor will rid him of some more worms & the problem will miraculously go away. Not likely, but I'm always the optimist.

Edited June 30, 2008 by kudzu

[patricia]

Sending my prayers.

[dante2zoe]

been there, done that. Sounds like Dante 3 years ago. He ended up thinner than on the track. Tried everything that you did. Weird proteins, no grains, etc. He seemed to be sensitive to grain and preservatives. As a last, and I mean last, ditch effort, I did the switch to raw. It was either that or watch him die. Even my vet told me that at that point, I had nothing to lose. We did the switch and it worked. However, he still gets loose at times and ground meat with fat, chicken skin, etc., sends him puddling. Rich organ meat loosens him up. However, I follow the guidelines in Switching to Raw and after a couple weeks, got the hang of it and it is almost second nature. Now, my two greys, whippet and 2 of the cats eat raw! You can also buy pre-made raw, but that has more fat than my own mix does. I do feel your pain, frustration and heartache. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

\Cindy

[carronstar]

Sending prayers for all of you.

[Batmom]

There's nothing magical about raw meat and no significant difference between raw and cooked meat. Except that the raw will have more bacteria, and you don't want to be adding that to pup's system until you have a diagnosis!

 

Feeding only meat (raw or cooked) can be useful if dog has an allergy. You can feed one thing (say, beef) and still provide a reasonable amount of nutrition.

 

If you are going to feed rice, use WHITE rice, and cook it until it absorbs @ double the water you'd use if cooking it for people. That way it'll be more likely to get digested and less likely to go right thru.

 

If she improved on any of the meds (I'm thinking of flagyl in particular), note that sometimes you have to give a med for MONTHS, to give the gut time to recover. Giving just a 5-day course doesn't always work.

 

Also note that worms have a life cycle, and you'll want to worm according to that. So, a 6-day course of Panacur may kill off one crop of worms, but what about the crop hatching 3 weeks from the first day?

 

If she hasn't had an abdominal x-ray, I'd urge you to get one. Fast, easy, cheap way to rule out some obvious problems.