greyhead

Thanks for all that wisdom, Wendy. That's such a shame about your first grey. And then a second time, but thanks to you a better outcome! You've really been through it. I hope it's okay to use ellipsis to quote a couple particulars from your post. I'm leaving soon to buy more venison and wondering if it's okay to get him turkey necks. Sounds like it's not but I thought I'd check cuz they are so good for his teeth and for helping get his poop out. The ground venison doesn't appear to have much bone in it. Secondly, you didn't use meds with the raw diet. Are they incompatible? Would using both be overkill? Or were meds just a possible threat, given your first grey, and proved unnecessary with the raw diet?

Thanks, Donna. Love to you and your Spencer, Emmy and Buzz! No ulceration was noted, but could they even tell that with an ultrasound? We know he had that huge Clostridium infection, so maybe that enlarged the lymph nodes. Some people feel that raw food is contraindicated with IBD. I take it you disagree! I don't know what to think, except that he's doing great -- well, better anyway -- on raw venison! Of course, venison was a novel protein for him, and that may help in itself, I gather. The vet seems concerned about the lack of carbs. But he hasn't done well with carbs for a long time, so... I can't wait to mention "fecal transplant" to my vet and watch her sink to the floor! Which reminds me, though, why would Spencer seem to do worse when given probiotics than when not given them? I've seen it happen twice, and I suppose it could be a coincidence rather than a correlation, but what say you? ETA: What are some examples of immunomodulators?

Thanks, Holli. I'm curious how it's decided which steroids to use. Are some more effective than others for IBD for all dogs, or is it a matter of which side effects can be tolerated? On the fat thing, I've kept fat almost entirely out of Spencer's diet for weeks, so I can't imagine that's it in his case. I did this because I was worried about a gall stone being responsible for his white poop, blocking the bile duct. Vet says there's no evidence of any blockage, but the duct is really small, and there could have been temporary swelling that closed it off.

Thanks, Lynn. I didn't know Flagyl was part of the treatment. He has been on it for almost two weeks and is just running out, as I told the vet. Maybe I should call her tomorrow and ask for at least that much right away. He has been on 1000 mg twice a day, which a lot of people consider high in general. What's a typical dose for IBD? We had been using it for the SIBO, and 500 mg twice a day hadn't worked previously.

After treating Spencer for SIBO caused by Clostridium bacteria, using three antibiotics, all of which led to some but not complete improvement, we had an ultrasound done on Tuesday. The vet made an appointment to give me the results today, and the diagnosis is now severe IBD. On the plus side, it's nothing worse! No sign of cancer or anything else. All other organs in good shape, all though the stomach wall is also thickened and somewhat unhappy. The main problem, though, is the small intestine and the jejunum where it meets the large intestine. And all this is probably the basis for the intestinal malabsorption that was determined months ago. Enlarged lymph nodes are also part of this, and that's compatible with IBD, says the report, but I'm not clear exactly why they're working so hard. Do any of you understand this? The vet is going to consult with the internist about next steps. She herself doesn't think a surgical biopsy would do much beyond confirming what the ultrasound already shows, and it would have the disadvantages of, well, surgery. So if the internist concurs, then the decisions will involve which steroid(s) to use and what food. I already know that these two vets have completely different ideas about prednisone and what constitutes a "large" dose, so that should be an interesting conversation! Right now he's doing pretty well on raw venison, which he has been on exclusively for several days. (I finally realized he wasn't making any progress on chicken, whether cooked or raw.) But the vet says she has had good results with similar cases, including her own dog, using Purina's DCO (?) food. Any experience with that? So I'm relieved to finally get this answer, but a little sad too. I said "it's treatable," and the vet said: Yeah, but if we don't get a handle on it pretty soon, it will do him in. I guess I draw hope from the thought that this is one TOUGH dog. He even managed to regain 10 of the 20 lbs he lost with the SIBO and intestinal malabsorption that we knew about, and he's holding them! And he has already been through chronic hookworm and lumbosacral stenosis. So I have a lot of faith in Spencer's endurance and his determination to stick around. BUT I'm absolutely certain that we'll make better treatment decisions, which will be important, with input from GTers that know more than we do. So if anyone has any thoughts at all after reading this, you are cordially invited to share them!!! Thank you so much for the support you've already provided during these months of Spencer's struggles. For you: (And I'll update probably Monday, after the vets have had their pow-wow.)

Welcome Jennifer, from Washington!

Hugs and sympathy to both you and your friend. Your heart is clearly broken too.

Good idea and one I'll keep in mind! But then again, Spencer has never gone for peanut butter, now that I think of it. Weird! Tonight I fit the pills in gelcaps, which I notice did tend to stick at the back of his throat. (Gelcaps are NOT slippery.) But I immediately handed him his dinner, so the chicken chased the pills right down. And just to update, we still had D on his walk, but it was brown instead of yellow, and it didn't smell vile! Not seeing any negative side effects from the med, but we'll keep watch. I imagine seizure risk increases the longer you give this stuff. Thanks!

Hi Wendy! Yeah, I had the same thought about the gel caps. Don't know if mine are large enough, but I'll check. But if they're going in a gelcap, is there any reason I can't cut them so the pieces will fit? I didn't get to talk to the vet, but I think she wanted a 24-hour fast to rest the intestine and stop the diarrhea. But it probably would have made sense to hold off on starting the Flagyl until after the fast! In any case, he's eating now and seems none the worse for wear. (I gave him his pills followed by small amounts of food just to buffer.) He hasn't had his cobalamin/folate rechecked, nor has he had a break from A/B. (He still does better after he gets his cobalamin shots, so i guess he still needs them. Actually, I was told he'd need them for life, though retesting was anticipated anyhow.) Finished the Simplicef and could tell by texture and smell that he wasn't quite done, though much improved. Vet put him on clindamycin and he improved immediately but then slid back to D and smelliness. So when that round was done, she put him back on Simplicef. After a week of that I told her it wasn't working, and that's when she started the Flagyl on Friday. I'm not sure but I think Flagyl might have been the A/B that the lab microbiologist thought the Clostridium most susceptible to. When it had been tried at a lower dose weeks before that, there wasn't much improvement, and then he started refusing food. (I used to tuck it into some food, and he might have bit into a pill, tasted something worse than tires burning, and didn't trust food anymore!) So now I'm trying to just shove the pills far enough back to get them swallowed, without trying to hide in food. The gelcap approach is probably the most promising. Having him refuse food again is one of my biggest fears. Probiotics also seem to make Spencer a bit worse. Sometimes he'll eat yogurt, sometimes not. Hugs to you and scritches to Milt.

He weighs around 80, down from his high of 89 thanks to SIBO! I've never seen canned meatballs! And where does one get tripe? (I can try getting tripe from local raw-feeders who buy it in bulk, if I can track them down.)

Is it rare to give a dose that high? It does make me nervous. Would going for a 30-minute walk have any effect, for good or ill, on the likelihood of seizure? Maybe there's no proven correlation, but does anyone's experience suggest anything? Tried the butter coating this a.m., and it was a total fight. He spit the pills out four times. I gave up on those as they were disintegrating and went with two new dry ones. Still a fight but got it done. So what IS the deal with these not being coated with something, as AJ suggested?! How hard would that be! This is going to drive me crazy. The only thing about peanut butter is I'm afraid the stickiness will make him try to chew it. But I'll give it a try.

Good idea with the butter! Anyplace one can get Forti-Flora besides the vet? Just curious, as she may not have it, and I can't even ask until Monday. Shane sends regards to his half-brother Piaget! Spencer was going nuts earlier, wanting DINNER! Poor Shane is going to fast with him, for solidarity and because he can always stand to drop an ounce or 16. They both seem to have settled down and resigned themselves to...starvation!

THANK you, everyone! Those are all good suggestions. This afternoon I just shoved the two pills, one at a time, to the back of his throat, and then I gave him a small chicken neck to get the saliva going to wash down any taste. Will probably do that again but also give some cooked chicken or peanut butter or whatever to protect his tummy. Yup, still dealing with this! Good thing we love this guy so much!

Spencer is still being treated for Clostridium-based SIBO. Two weeks of Simplicef, then two weeks on clindamycin, and much improvement but not done. Another week of Simplicef and no improvement. So today we're to start Flagyl. Months ago we used 500 mg twice a day, now we're using 1000x2. Vet's instructions are give two pills, fast for 24 hours, then bland food. So second dose will occur during the 24-hour fast, but printed standard-instruction sheet says give with food (and standard practice with antibiotics). Should I give him a mouthful or two of food with the second dose. Or at least follow it with a chicken neck to kill the taste in his throat? (He pretty much hates Flagyl!) As to bland diet, he eats cooked chicken, and that's bland enough. But he eats about half ground raw food and turkey necks. The raw food is meat only, no carbs and low fat. Commercial bland diets aren't an option, as he can't handle veggies or grains. So do you think the raw meat is simple enough to qualify as bland? (We're using beef/tripe, buffalo, and sometimes venison for the raw.) Can't believe this isn't over yet! And just FYI, we're doing abdominal ultrasound next Tuesday to see what's going on with his gall bladder (white/light poop) and whatever else looks interesting. We suspect gall stones. Many thanks for any ideas/experience you can share!

Hugs and scritches from us too, Meredith. You should have a ton of good Lucas karma to draw upon in this situation!

I feel so badly for your loss. Yet for selfish reasons, I suppose, I'm very proud that you didn't let his kidney disease win. He enjoyed a wonderful life with you, the best, and couldn't have been better loved. I hope that consoles you.

Hugs and scritches all around!

You might want to have the thyroid retested at some point in the future, in some number of months. Becoming hypothyroid is a process. In that process the thyroid, which is like the body's engine, alternately revs and slows as it alternates between weakening and battling back. But over time, the weakening wins. So the test result you get will vary with the point in the process when you happen to measure it. What is good today may be not so good next month, and so on down the road. So glad your pup is doing better than before!

I hope you can still feel Alan there with you.

Thanks for the update -- I was wondering how you were doing. Sounds very promising! Continued hugs, prayers and good wishes from all of us.

We have been going through a bout of serious SIBO -- small intestine bacterial overgrowth -- with one of our greys. It got serious because it took months of the vet not catching it until I insisted that they test his poop for bacteria. By that time he had lost 10 pounds and was to lose 10 more before we were done. During all those months he never lost his appetite or energy until he just about crashed. He was also seeing a holistic vet, for acupuncture and chiropractic and chinese herbs (for spinal issues), in addition to his traditional vet. The holistic vet couldn't help the diarrhea/soft stool and bacterial problem. So follow your traditional vet's instructions and give the antibiotic. Whatever die-off of good bacteria may occur can be easily rectified with probiotics. However, if the bad bacteria persist, your dog will likely develop malabsorption and a permanent inability to manufacture B12 in the gut. He will eat a lot, but he won't be getting enough nutrients. Seriously.

Sounds like you did the right thing at the right time for Frankie. He'll live on in your hearts forever, pain-free.

The link for Buzz's pedigree doesn't recognize the info it has on ear tats. ??? Congratulations, though!

Oh, hon, I'm so sorry! I'm sure you *are* shellshocked. But you did the right thing for Chester and he's free from pain now.

I know how it feels to need the world to just stop, yet on it goes. But do know that there's a little universe of people out here who know you, if only from your posts, care about you, and are shaking their heads on your behalf, knowing that you didn't need this. Not now, not ever. We'll be here for you, sending good thoughts, as you put one foot in front of the other. Hugs for you and scritches for Riley.