Bowel Issues And Now, Wasting?

[Guest lynne893]

Timber has had bowel issues since April. She had a limp on and off for a long time (I truly suspect a corn!), and had been on pain meds for it (Deramaxx, Tramadol, Metacam, etc.), and it was when she was on a course of Deramaxx in April that she threw up blood and had dark diarrhea. She went through a whole series of stomach issues over these last several months and just hasn't gotten better. No more vomiting, but mucousy stool, blood streaks in her poop, "casing" (like around a sausage) over her poop, and diarrhea.

 

You name a stomach medicine, she's been on it. We did chicken and rice. We did yogurt. We did metamucil. We did i/d kibble.

 

She had an xray of her stomach back in April, nothing but a lot of gas. She's had two fecal tests in the last month, nothing.

 

The specialist we recently saw suggested it might be a sudden food allergy, so he recommended we try out new proteins and different foods, starting with going back to her old food and taking her off the Carafate, the Pepcid, etc., because he said those are for upper-digestive issues and what we're dealing with here is a lower-digestive issue in the colon.

 

We've put her back on her old food (Iams Active Maturity, which has been her food for years, and prior to April, she'd always had very good, clockwork, healthy poops). Back on Iams, her poops were suddenly resembling "normal" -- the closest thing to normal we'd seen in months. But after 3 good days, now we're back to diarrhea and mush and low appetite.

 

It's been hot here in LA, but I don't think it's the heat that's keeping her from eating. She's "sphinxing" (you know, stretching and lying like the sphinx lion), stretching a lot, changing positions, and gassy. I can tell she's uncomfortable.

 

She's only eating about half the food she usually eats. Adding plain, non-fat yogurt gets her appetite up, but we can see her ribs and hip bones now.

 

The vet said to be prepared to stick with each change of diet for several weeks to give it a chance to work. But this wasting issue concerns me. Should I call back and see if she needs bloodwork, a B12 shot? (We initially opted not to do the bloodwork because we've already spent well over $1,000 with no answers, and frankly, we can't afford the colonoscopy he recommends, etc.)

 

Thank you for listening, and any advice you have to offer. It's just been constant problems for a lonnnng time with her now (even before April). But since April, things have not been great.

[greyhead]

Oh my, how I can sympathize! I'm guessing the fecals were done for parasites. You need to take in another sample for a culture and sensitivity, to look for bacteria. (Just giving tylosin without testing won't necessarily work or prove that a dog doesn't have SIBO. Ours did.) Testing for E. coli and salmonella is common. We also tested for Clostridium, and our dog had a serious, serious overgrowth of that. (Most vets expect it in GSD's and don't look for it in otehrs.) The C&S will figure out which antibiotics will actually kill the bugs your pup might have. Results take about a week or two because they have to grow the germs in a dish and then see what kills them. So I wouldn't delay in getting it done.

 

X-rays won't show much of the damage that can result from from SIBO. An ultrasound can show a lot, like if there has been structural damage in the digestive system. But you should look first at the C&S and treat accordingly, then see where you are.

 

Best of luck. It's not easy but it's doable. (Changing foods won't kill bacteria at all.)

[ahicks51]

Best of luck. It's not easy but it's doable. (Changing foods won't kill bacteria at all.)

 

Not on its own, but a diet lacking what the bacteria consume, in conjunction with adding in the right organisms, might help push them aside. I'm thinking raw or home-cooked, along with probiotics.

[Guest lynne893]

I'm pretty sure the specialist we took her to did a THOROUGH fecal work up (it was about $600). We'd had a fecal done just 3 weeks prior, and he explained that not only did he want to re-test by different methods, but also check for all sorts of other things. I'll certainly mention the things you suggest, greyhead. I do appreciate your help. I just feel frustrated because it seems we've already tried looking at so many things.

 

I hadn't heard of SIBO before. Just googled it and it sure sounds familiar...

 

Thank you both.

 

Anyone else?

[Guest RICHandJUDE]

In our newspaper a few weeks ago...in the section where people tell of their own home remedies... was a man

who told of having a greyhound that had bowel problems. He said he tried everything and was still having problems.

He gave his greyhound a couple Macaroon Cookies (coconut) per day and in no time it got better.

 

My greyhound had dirrareha (spelling?). The macarron cookies helped a little. I don't think it can hurt.

[Guest lynne893]

Macarron cookies! Ha! She'd LOVE that! Hey, may as well try it and make her happy for a change What could go wrong... diarrhea??

 

I might try it.

[Guest LindsaySF]

The blood makes me think stomach ulcer. Did they check for that?

 

Even with a negative fecal result I still deworm, just in case.

 

I would check into SIBO too. Unless they are looking for it they don't always find it.

 

[ahicks51]

In our newspaper a few weeks ago...in the section where people tell of their own home remedies... was a man

who told of having a greyhound that had bowel problems. He said he tried everything and was still having problems.

He gave his greyhound a couple Macaroon Cookies (coconut) per day and in no time it got better.

 

My greyhound had dirrareha (spelling?). The macarron cookies helped a little. I don't think it can hurt.

 

You know, the macaroon cookies thing is tossed around a lot in the realm of IBS/IBD in humans. Then lots of laughter follows from the professionals, but here's the thing: coconut oil is interesting stuff with respect to human nutrition. And, when made correctly, macaroons are made with almond flour. I won't bother to go into the biochemistry of it, but suffice to say there are some very good reasons why *real* coconut macaroons (made with almond flour) probably have a strong positive effect on the gut.

 

I wouldn't be beyond experimenting with a bit of coconut oil with each meal, in fact- a couple of teaspoons, maybe a tablespoon if well-tolerated. Honestly, I never thought of trying it with dogs, but it makes sense.

[Batmom]

Would put her on prescription Z/D Ultra food and perhaps one additional protein source rather than going with a regular commercial food. If she has a food sensitivity contributing to this, you'll never get to the bottom of it with regular foods.

 

Hugs and best luck to you and your pup.

[MaryJane]

Best of luck. It's not easy but it's doable. (Changing foods won't kill bacteria at all.)

 

Not on its own, but a diet lacking what the bacteria consume, in conjunction with adding in the right organisms, might help push them aside. I'm thinking raw or home-cooked, along with probiotics.

 

 

 

I would also suggest doing home-cooking so you can control what foods the dog is getting and determine what works and what doesn't. I did this years ago with one of my dogs and determined that he reacted to chicken and noodles - he would get diarrhea when he got either of those ingredients and it would only take a tablespoon or two. My greyhound now does not tolerate chicken although I can give him a little but, if I give him chicken over a few days - he gets diarrhea with the "casing".

 

Maybe start by giving a few tablespoons of oatmeal once a day and see if that helps. Oatmeal has fiber and over time will help firm up the poop but, I've usually seen results within a day or two.

 

I might also suggest switching from chicken to beef. I've had a few greyhounds that just haven't done well on chicken (although to be fair, many will also say the same about beef). There are also Limited Ingredient dog foods that use novel proteins if you can not go the route of home-made. Natural balance is one that I have used for fosters (Venison and Sweet Potato).

 

If you can do home-made, try a bland diet of beef and rice. Check with the vet and see if you can do a 50% of that with the current dog food that he/she recommends.

 

Probiotics/yogurt is an important addition to make sure that the "natural bacteria" is put back into the gut. Someone suggested doing a stool culture and I think that is a good idea for the next step and the cost should be on the reasonable side when considered next to the other types of tests.

 

While the "elimination home cooking diet" is the toughest and possibly the longest option to do (about 1 month) - it can produce results.

 

[Guest greytbookert]

You've received some great advice! Our Booker had similar issues and wanted to share our "recipe" for getting his digestive tract back on track. Like you, we had tried everything and were reluctant to have exploratory surgery. If the Healing Diet hadn't worked, who knows what we would have done... luckily, it did work. We had a diary of about a month of his "intake" and "output" prior to this and couldn't come up with any triggers. We also dewormed, tried various meds.

 

We consulted with a holistic vet and we had great luck with the diet. I've shared this with a few people who have had similar issues and they had good results as well. Perhaps some of the information will help you too. I wish you the best of luck with your girl. I know all too well how horrible it is to see them when they don't feel well.

 

We stopped all supplements except Glucosamine and MSM and stopped all treats.

 

First prepare some Old Fashioned whole oats (oatmeal), not the instant kind. Cook them well using only water (no butter,salt, or milk), the mushier, the better. Then sear some ground turkey, you don't want to over cook it but you want it done medium. Take both the turkey and the oats after they have cooled a bit and run them through a food processor or blender. This aids in breaking down the foods, so his body won't have to. This is the base of diet.

 

For the first week, there should be more oats than turkey, about 1/3 turkey and 2/3 oats. Then after the first week, increase the turkey ratio, until you are at almost no oats. The measurements may vary with her weight and activity levels. Booker was about 71 pounds, fairly active but he was almost 13 at the time of his issues. We fed twice a day at just under a total of 2 pounds per day. I recommend feeding in small intervals so that she isn't trying to process too much at once. If you can do three times, that is even better, especially when there is food refusal involved.

 

Also, after the first couple of days add in Slippery Elm Bark powder (soothes the digestive tract). I found it in an apothecary store. Also start looking for Bovine colostrum (boosts the immune system and has other great qualities. I ordered mine online but I think it can be found in all natural type stores.

 

When you have completed the first week of no supplements and the turkey and oats, start slowly adding in some colostrum. We worked up to 2 capules (can't remember the mgs) per meal and a half teaspoon of the slippery elm.

 

After the first week, Booker's poo firmed up and there wasn't any horking of bile. If you suspect a food allergy to turkey, you can use chicken but I would steer clear of beef (didn't work for Booker and it is kind of fatty). If you have access to ground bison or another "exotic" meat that may work too but the turkey worked for us, when we couldn't find goat in the area.

 

We continued the diet for a month and then slowly cut back on the turkey/oat mix and added in his other foods. We feed raw but if you are against that, you can start adding his kibble. If he has a set back, you may want to consider a different food.

 

I was worried about a complete and balanced diet during this healing diet and was assured by my vet that it was ok, because the goal was to first get him to be able to digest properly and once his digestive tract was healed and better, we were able to go back to his normal diet.

 

[Guest kydie]

I feel your pain for your pup and in the pocket book, I did everything, including an EGD, biopsey,and beleive me $3500.00 later, I went to a holistic vet, BEST money I ever spent. which I had followed my gut feelings and started there, NO problems for 3 years now, we watch his diet and give herbs Good Luck

[Guest IrskasMom]

 

 

I did not read all Responses . Thou could it be IBD ???

[SAVED2]

Go to Walmart and buy a package of ACTIVIA LIGHT fat free 4 pack for 1.88 put 2 tablespoons in there kibble for a few days and then 1 at every meal , we had big problems and this cured it.

[Guest houndhome]

Good luck! I would second on the holistic vet thing. Not that it has anything to do with anything, but I was reading an article today about coconut oil. Apparently, it has a special molecular structure that other oils don't The article, though, was about coconut oil and how it is the only oil that is small enough to penetrate a hair shaft so it is great for damaged hair. If it is small enough to go through a hair shaft, maybe it is soothing to the bowels. I'd ask the holistic vet. For my hounds, metamucil and oatmeal is always good, but I know you are trying everything. I'd second the stop everything, and come back slowly with whatever the holistic vet says.

[Guest jskelton]

I would do a blood check to make sure the protein levels are normal and that your pup isn't suffering from Protein Losing Enteropathy. If inflammation is the cause, and you let your dog lose too much weight, recovery is difficult. If your dog's body is not absorbing nutrition, and you are not controlling potential inflammation, it doesn't matter what you are feeding your dog. It will just come out the other end.

 

My dog was diagnosed with IBD and Lymphangiectasia but we caught it before significant weight loss. After taking her to the doctor for chronic diarrhea, a blood test showed that she was significantly low in blood protein. In our case, we could afford an endoscopy and biopsy confirming her condition. As a result, she was given aggressive treatment to control the disease. She is also on an ultra low fat diet and at one point I was feeding her 2400 calories to maintain weight. Now I believe she is stabilizing and is consuming a normal caloric load. Her blood protein is also now in the normal range. We still have a long road ahead.

 

I'm no doctor, but because I'm especially sensitive because of my recent experiences, it seems worth $150 to get a blood test. Good luck!

[Guest SusanP]

In our newspaper a few weeks ago...in the section where people tell of their own home remedies... was a man

who told of having a greyhound that had bowel problems. He said he tried everything and was still having problems.

He gave his greyhound a couple Macaroon Cookies (coconut) per day and in no time it got better.

 

My greyhound had dirrareha (spelling?). The macarron cookies helped a little. I don't think it can hurt.

 

You know, the macaroon cookies thing is tossed around a lot in the realm of IBS/IBD in humans. Then lots of laughter follows from the professionals, but here's the thing: coconut oil is interesting stuff with respect to human nutrition. And, when made correctly, macaroons are made with almond flour. I won't bother to go into the biochemistry of it, but suffice to say there are some very good reasons why *real* coconut macaroons (made with almond flour) probably have a strong positive effect on the gut.

 

I wouldn't be beyond experimenting with a bit of coconut oil with each meal, in fact- a couple of teaspoons, maybe a tablespoon if well-tolerated. Honestly, I never thought of trying it with dogs, but it makes sense.

 

 

Be careful--almonds are toxic to dogs!

[ahicks51]

Be careful--almonds are toxic to dogs!

 

I had to look this up; there seems to be a lot of anecdotal stuff on almonds on the web. Nobody seems to provide a reason- a biochemical mechanism by which ordinary almonds are toxic, although a number are quite clear about bitter almonds- those pesky cyanogenic glycosides, of course.

 

The ASPCA poison control vets have this to say:

 

http://www.aspca.org/online-community/tran...transcript.html

 

I bake a lot during the holidays. Are all nuts safe for dogs or are some toxic? Thanks!

—Addie

 

In general, nuts are safe for dogs. They are high in fat, so in some dogs they can cause an inflammation of the pancreas, which can be serious. They are also high in calories, and can contribute to obesity. In general, avoid feeding a large amount of nuts.

 

One type of nut to watch out for is the macadamia nut. For reasons we don't understand, dogs who eat these become weak, unsteady on their feet and may develop tremors. In addition, they may vomit. Usually, they recover on their own, but severe cases may need to go to the veterinarian. As few as four or five macadamia nuts can cause problems in a 10-pound dog.

 

A lot of people ask about almonds because some sources say they contain cyanide. Bitter almonds contain cyanide but these are not sold for food in this country. Sweet almonds, the kind we do eat, do not contain cyanide.

—Dr. Eric Dunayer

 

Almonds appear nowhere in the Merck Veterinary Manual, although macadamias- which are clearly toxic- have their own section.

 

So, I'm not sure what to say about almond-containing macaroons. One could avoid the almonds entirely and go with coconut oil, which is probably more useful. Ditto with omega 3 fish oils, which dampen Th1 response while enhancing Th2 response- which is what one wants for inflammatory disease.

[Batmom]

Almonds are fine for dogs.

[Guest SusanP]

Hmmm. Our e-vet made us peroxide all 4 of our hounds to make them vomit when somebody stole and ripped open a bag of almonds. They told me they are toxic to dogs. So this seems strange to me.

[Batmom]

Hmmm. Our e-vet made us peroxide all 4 of our hounds to make them vomit when somebody stole and ripped open a bag of almonds. They told me they are toxic to dogs. So this seems strange to me.

 

That's really weird. Believe Aaron already quoted the ASPCA Poison Control vet's answer to the almond question. Did the almonds have shells on? Maybe your vet was concerned about blockage.

[Guest Fasave]

There is a lot of great information here. I had similar issue with my guy this year and it's very frustrating. I was told by one doc that the presence of mucus means they need fiber which is not found in i/d food. Long story short, after six months of tests, vets and issues, I finally took him to a nutritionalist and had a diet made for him specifically. To date, I suspect he has an issue with beef, turkey and rice. You may want to consider trying millet instead of rice to see if there is any difference. Many nutritionalists will consult over the phone as they don't always need to see the dog but they will want to consult recent lab work. While my guy is much improved, I am still considering taking him to a holistic vet. Keep at it. Once you figure it out the end result is worth it.

[Guest kydie]

I find the ASPCA article strange, since our holistic vet put pup on ginger!

[Guest SusanP]

Hmmm. Our e-vet made us peroxide all 4 of our hounds to make them vomit when somebody stole and ripped open a bag of almonds. They told me they are toxic to dogs. So this seems strange to me.

 

That's really weird. Believe Aaron already quoted the ASPCA Poison Control vet's answer to the almond question. Did the almonds have shells on? Maybe your vet was concerned about blockage.

\

 

No shells. These were raw almonds to be used in holiday baking. the vet said they could kill the dogs if they ate a lot. I see a number of vet websites online say they are anything from mildly toxic to life-threatening. Is the ASPCA Poison control website where vets should be getting their info?

 

Well, this is really an entirely different thread, I suppose.

[Guest lynne893]

Thank you all for chiming in. I'm going to print this thread out, highlight the various suggestions, conditions your hounds have had that resemble Timber's, and questions to ask, and take it to the specialist.

 

I feel kind of hopeless!