Need Advice For My Mom

[Batmom]

Vet check is a good idea.

 

If she is often eliminating in the house, she either does need to go out more often (could be medical) or she isn't doing what she should when she's outside. Make sure to watch -- one of mine sometimes wants to come in before all business is taken care of.

[Brandiandwe]

One of my pooches has what we termed a nervous bladder. Whenever I came home at the start, she would get so excited that she would pee. She still does it from time to time. Nothing wrong in terms of UTI (but I'd check that too). We also found out, in the course of a UTI, that her bladder neck is actually further into her pelvis than 'normal', so she has less room in the tank. And did I mention that she's exciteable?

 

While it doesn't sound like Snowy is doing from excitement (My human! Home! Wow! I must run around! I shall play bow! I shall roll over! I shall pee in front of her!), it might still be about nerves. And while you've never raised your hand to a dog, they do remember their past. Brandi, the one with the nervous bladder, was kicked sometime in her past. The only reason we know this is because at the start no-one could step over her when lying down. She would cringe away, even if someone walked past her. She's better now, in that I can step over her as long as she knows I'm coming, but she doesn't allow my husband or anyone else to. We're just careful about it.

 

Get a vet check and keep working at it. It will get better!

[Guest grandmagrey]

We don't know all of snowys past but we do know she was very neglected physically. Which of course translate to psychologically. I took a video of one if the middle of the night episodes and have watched it several times now. I think Snowy was either afraid of something or very worried about something. She accepts my attempts at comforting. But is that wrong? Idk. We are going to seek out a trainer and see if some classes in basic obedience and tricks might help. I think she will like it. I'm nervous about the off leash stuff though. What do you all think? If its in an enclosed environment? My inclination there is private lessons so that we take no chance w her curiosity and strong prey drive.

[3greytjoys]

Obedience classes with a positive method instructor (hopefully Greyhound savvy) would be great. The trainer should respect that Greyhounds should not be allowed off leash, and modify exercises for Snowy. You are right to not allow her off leash.

 

If a bed growl happens again. Please keep your distance. Go into another room to happily call Snowy into the other room for a super yummy treat or toy. If she doesn't respond (by moving off the bed), take a smelly treat (like meat, tripe, etc.) to show her while calling her off the bed. Best to let Snowy follow the treat without any human touching her. If that doesn't work, try showing her the leash (from a distance) as if she's going for a walk or ride, etc.

 

Growling is a dog's way of communicating displeasure. If dogs are scolded for growling (might have happened in her previous life), they are more likely to skip a "warning" growl in the future and go directly to a bite. Therefore, a human keeping a respectful distance away from a growling dog is very important.

 

Many dogs with sleep startle, space issues, and some dogs with a questionable past are much safer not being allowed on human's furniture.

 

I agree with suggestions for a veterinary check, and to start fresh with housebreaking (and being sure to thoroughly eliminate urine odor from floor/carpet). Try to keep Snowy in the same room with human/s to keep a watchful eye open for any pacing behavior and/or floor sniffing (vs. allowing her full house freedom for now).

 

I taught all of our Greyhounds to "touch" target a door bell when they need to go potty. It has been a wonderfully effective clear communication method in our home for years. The key is to respond to the dog's bell ring immediately, so they are assured it works (for their bodily function needs) every time.

 

If interested... Teaching dog to ring a bell for elimination outings (not to exceed 3-5 minute total):

If bell has any sharp edges, cover edges with felt.

1. First, only let dog see/smell extra smelly high value treat (best if never dog tasted it before).

2. Hide treat under bell (on floor). Wait for dog to touch bell with nose = instantly reward with treat.

Repeat a couple of times adding words like "touch bell".

3. Then person holds bell (with hidden treat) on flat open hand near door knob (of potty exit door). Nose touch = reward with treat.

4. Then hang bell on door knob, hiding treat under bell. Nose touch = reward with treat.

5. Thereafter, reinforce daily by having dog touch the (hanging) bell every time that door is opened for an elimination outing. Dog is now receiving a double reward for each bell touch. First reward is a treat, combined with the door magically opening every time dog touches bell. After the bell ring is well ingrained in the dog's mind (within a week or two) you should be able to stop the food treats, then simply consider the door opening (and dog relieving herself) the dog's reward.

 

FWIW, a couple of our hounds have a play style of barking when trying to encourage others to play. We get a single or double bark from the others when they're trying to tell us something important.

[silverfish]

OK back. No offense ever taken at someone's ideas and attempts to help us w a prob we have put out there. Deep soul searching has revealed I prob inadvertantly have sent some mixed messages. When the barking episodes first began, I attempted to comfort and gave love. Oops! Actually, I taught Snowy to expect love and hugs, belly rubs, head scratches, etc, when she barked! Lesson learned. More later in the continuing saga we shall call "life with Snowy(how I love that dog!)

 

Hi - good to see you posting, and get some more detailed info! It certainly sounds as if Snowy is very much loved.

 

Ha, yes! It's so easy to teach them the wrong thing by mistake because dogs are such quick learners when it comes to getting what they want! I think we've all done that, at some point.

 

Our first grey was a wonderful, wonderful dog and very loving. He adored cuddles and pets, hugs, attention, play etc, but was still a very nervous and chronically anxious dog. Certainly if the urination inside is new, a vet check is a great idea and may turn up a UTI which is easily dealt with, but it also wouldn't hurt to plug in a pheromone diffuser like Adaptil. It helped our Jim a great deal and is a harmless, drug-free option.

 

I wouldn't mess around with trying herbal remedies until you have had Snowy's urine and general health checked out so you know what's going on, because you can do more harm than good; for instance, if she has bladder stones or crystals, you could inadvertently give her something herbal which increases their growth, or if she has a kidney problem or something like Cushing's the herbal remedy could swing her chemical/hormone balance in the wrong direction. I'm not against herbal supplements and remedies - many of them are excellent and I've used them myself - I just think you need a diagnosis first.

Edited February 27, 2013 by silverfish

[a_daerr]

We don't know all of snowys past but we do know she was very neglected physically. Which of course translate to psychologically. I took a video of one if the middle of the night episodes and have watched it several times now. I think Snowy was either afraid of something or very worried about something. She accepts my attempts at comforting. But is that wrong? Idk. We are going to seek out a trainer and see if some classes in basic obedience and tricks might help. I think she will like it. I'm nervous about the off leash stuff though. What do you all think? If its in an enclosed environment? My inclination there is private lessons so that we take no chance w her curiosity and strong prey drive.

 

Hi Snowy's mom! We are lucky here in Pittsburgh because the regional humane society offers classes exclusively for new greyhound owners. However, we've taken MANY classes- basic, advanced, CGC/TDI, greyhound-only, all-breed. And (at least for us) very little work was done off leash. Once we got into harder commands like down-stay-recalls, we either clipped them on a 20 ft. lead or the instructor held their leash during the exercise. You may be thinking of agility work, where the dog is expected to run an obstacle course off-leash. Chances are, you won't be doing anything like that unless you really get into training and go onto more advanced levels. If Snowy is high prey, it may be a good idea to see if there is a class available that doesn't include small dogs. I wouldn't opt for private training unless her problems become dangerous or severe. It is good for them to work in the presence of other dogs- it helps develop confidence and self-control in distracting situations.

[Guest grandmagrey]

1st of all, I want to add that Snowy has been w us just a few months. I believe we are still in an adjustment phase. We are and have been working on training. She has a lot of issues which stem from her previous life experiences. I have videos of some of this that I've shared w a dog trainer now. Unfortunately, I don't know how to get them on here. Those of you who have thought anxiety appear to be correct! Last night we had another bad spell which I was able to shorten by literally holding her. Comforting w soft voice, lots of love, belly rub, etc. She responded very well. We had been trying to ignore the barking. I now realize that it just escalated w that approach. I think the urination was anxiety based as well, but she has a vet appointment just to be sure. The digging is the least of my worries as is the stealing food. We need to continue to build trust and live and a sense if security for Snowy before worrying about those issues. We adopted Snowy to give her a soft, happy place to land for the rest if her life and that she will have. I'm in lovvvve w her and its not all probs! We will continue to ask for opinions as we progress thru this and really, really appreciate everyone's thoughts and expertise. I'll try to get the video on here if I can get some help...Lol not very technically savvy.

[silverfish]

Oh, that's good. You know now what you're dealing with and it'll be easier to help her. If holding her firmly helps, you might like to consider the Thundershirt. I haven't tried it myself, but it is said to work by providing a 'hug' feeling for them.

 

For when you're out walking, or for less intense moments, you can try a soft 'It's OK' in a matter-of-fact voice and a brief touch of the hand on her shoulder. Over time she will come to associate this with reassurance and it will help her. I've used this with great success with two of my 'nervous nellies'!

To post a video the best way is to open a Photobucket account (or other online media sharing site) and upload the video there, then link it to here.

 

YouTube works, too. I have accounts in both places and have posted from both to Greytalk.

[Guest grandmagrey]

Thanks again for more greyt advice. Will post the best of 3 videos this eve. Please everyone...I do want your greyhound specific advice! Thanks again to all!

[Guest grandmagrey]

i did it! uploaded the videos!

 

The first one is of the probs we have at night sometimes. please notice the look on her face...she is obviously distraught...afraid? still not sure but leaning toward anxiety. When she acted like this last night, I held her and gave lots of love. It did seem to help. I also bought a monster mouth puzzle toy today- hid the treat inside... she didn't know what to do with it for a bit, but now she loves it! played for over 20 mins even after she got the treat out. I think we are on the right track..

 

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?video_id=BNyenMel6hE&ns=1

 

this next one is hilarious and the Snowy we see most of the time...fun, happy, playful. see if you know what she brings into the room before i say it.

 

 

anxiously awaiting comments!

Kathy

[JJNg]

The link to the first video above didn't work. Try this:

From watching the two videos, I noticed that there are a lot of similarities in Snowy's barking behavior in the night time video and in the playful video, although she does seem a little more stressed or frustrated in the night video. In the other video, you actually seem to be encouraging and reinforcing her barking behavior by the way you're talking and interacting with her. I suspect that she may have learned that the barking is how she should interact with you and get your attention.

You're sending her mixed messages that will cause confusion and stress if you sometimes reward and encourage the behavior, and sometimes ignore or scold her for the behavior. I'd suggest being more consistent and if you don't want her to bark like that, don't encourage it in any situation, even when playing. It's also hard to say without being there, but I'm wondering if holding her and giving her love for barking is going to further reinforce the behavior. Just some things to think about. Her response and whether the behavior gets better or worse will be the best indicators of whether that approach is working.

[silverfish]

Hmm... that is not quite the behaviour I was expecting to see! She doesn't look anxious so much as frustrated, as JJNg says. At first she's lashing her tail furiously and almost playbowing as if she is enticing you to get up and do something with her, and yes, I can see how that level of persistent barking would get you down.

 

There still may be a strong element of anxiety in there, since dogs are masters of displacement activity, and it can sometimes be difficult to track down the cause of a behaviour - especially in the case of a previously abused dog where their behaviour might be a little bizarre for all kinds of reasons that you can't possibly know.

 

Again, as JJNg says (and you noted also, earlier) you may have been reinforcing the barking by giving her a lot of attention when she does it. Holding her might still work though, because I've noticed that in similar situations with my dogs if they've been running around/barking insanely and I can get hold of them and just hold them still and quiet for a minute, they will calm down - I think it may be related to the way in a wild dog pack, an older dog will gently but firmly hold a pup's muzzle in his mouth to quiet him or her during hunting if they bark or make too much noise. The act of forcing them to be still seems to show them that they need to be still. Of course, like most things it might not work instantly, and it might not work for long, but over time, it should help. It's something that has worked for us (I used to do it with my kids, too!). Just keep the interaction to a minimum while you do it. Don't be playful, or respond too much to any move she might make, just simply hold her, gently but firmly, so she can feel the contact for comfort, but she can also feel that you are in control. Repeat a 'trigger' phrase while you do it; perhaps something like 'OK, that's enough now' in a low, neutral voice. Eventually, the phrase should work by itself.

 

Sometimes, abused and anxious dogs need to feel that there is someone in the house who knows what they are doing (a 'strong leader' if you like), so it also might help to create a routine and try to stick to it. Our first dog was like this - he came from Travellers (gypsies) who are not known for treating their animals kindly, and his anxiety was much, much worse before I began doing some serious training with him, and enforcing a few house rules: simple things like 'wait' before I put his dinner bowl down, and 'wait' on the mat after coming in from the garden, and 'on your bed' to get treats, etc. So, personally, I think the training class would be an excellent idea, and might just give her the focus she is looking for!

 

I worked a lot with animals when I was younger, but I'm not a trainer or behaviourist. These are simply things I have learned from experience with twenty years of greyhound ownership - plus a whole lot of reading on dog psychology and social behaviour and discussions with other sighthound owners.

 

And I hope you feel better soon - the flu is no joke. I can imagine that having a barking dog in your face doesn't help that, either!

Edited February 28, 2013 by silverfish

[3greytjoys]

Hard not seeing everything going on in the room (assuming she's not reactive to video camera), not knowing the time, how long before she had eaten, and her last potty, etc. But she's intensely trying to communicate something to you in both videos, but her communications aren't being understood, thus higher frustration in night video. (She even got my senior brood matron riled up while listening to the video. lol)

 

My guesses:

She needs to go potty. (Even if our hounds go potty just before a meal, they often need to go back out within about 20 minutes later, especially if we just opened a new bag of their usual food.)

She's bursting at the seams with bottled up energy, desperate for physical exercise - cabin fever(?).

She's hungry.

In general, she needs more mental stimulation. She strikes me as a VERY intelligent Greyhound.

 

I'm not sure what the short bursts of high-pitched noises were in the day video, for a moment I wondered if that was setting Snowy off but it stopped and she didn't stop barking. She appeared more playful in day video - again maybe pinned up energy trying to entice you to play, but she might have been asking you to let her outside too. Or maybe she was mad that she was left behind when the person mentioned in the video left the house (maybe in a car?) without her.

 

Interestingly, our hounds don't come up just asking for attention often. They do come to me when they need something. If I can't figure it out right away, I stand up and walk to the nearest intersection of the room/s. I stand there asking the dog what he/she needs. I watch them for their answer. They usually glance or point their head in the direction of "the issue".

If one hound is hungry, he touches the food bin with his nose, sometimes combined with a temper tantrum where he stomps his front paws and does the digging motion that Snowy did. His paw stomps mean that he's really serious.

Or he will "look" at a dog bed if he wants "the one" that one of his sisters is using.

If it happens when we are traveling (without a door bell) they will glance at a door leading outside (means they need to go potty).

Our brood mom will stand in the direction she wants to go, then she'll turn only her head back to look at me. That means "follow me". She does the same with her offspring, and her pup understands to follow mom.

 

Agree with posters above re: not reinforcing her barking. I can also see that Snowy needs you to keep watching her closely to develop an understanding of her language (not her barking, but the root cause of her barking) so you can both communicate effectively.

Edited February 28, 2013 by 3greytjoys

[silverfish]

3greytjoys makes another good point. It's well worth the time invested to learn to understand dog behaviour and what their signals mean. I'd recommend 'How to Speak Dog' by Stanley Coren, and 'The Other End of the Leash' by Patricia McConnell.

 

Some dogs do the point-the-nose thing, when they want something from you, and some don't. With some the signals are much more subtle, but you can get to know what they are. I also agree that she looks very, very smart - she would repay you for the trouble taken to train her 100%!

[a_daerr]

Hi Kathy, I can't access your videos from my work computer (our firewall blocks YouTube), but I'll be happy to look at them later and give you my $0.02. For what it's worth, I put my utmost trust in Jennifer (JJNg) for all things medical and behavioral. She always gives me succint, effective, and well researched information.

[Batmom]

My guesses:

She needs to go potty. (Even if our hounds go potty just before a meal, they often need to go back out within about 20 minutes later, especially if we just opened a new bag of their usual food.)

She's bursting at the seams with bottled up energy, desperate for physical exercise - cabin fever(?).

She's hungry.

 

Yep. My Gidget, who is not an anxious dog at all (nor abused), behaves exactly as in the video when she has to go potty and nobody has noticed.

 

She'll occasionally do it when she thinks dinner or some other normal activity is late.

 

ETA: I'd really get urine and fecal samples to the vet for analysis, today.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Batmom

[Guest grandmagrey]

Hi again, and thanks for all your thoughtful comments and suggestions. I am happy to report that last night, for the first time in 2 weeks, Snowy, YES! SNOWY! slept thru the night. I don't know the root cause of the probs, but I believe we have turned a corner. The look on her face (like something is wrong) is gone, she is happily playful, and calms when it is time to calm down. maybe it was directly related to a change in her routine when we were home sick? maybe related to her being worried about us? boredom because we didnt play as much w her while we were sick? She might have been trying to make things more normal by playing/getting attention? Maybe some other reason?

In the night video it was 230 am and she had been outside @ 215, gone back to bed and came back to bark like that. i had told her it was bedtime,offered outside, jammies in case she was cold (she offers her head to get them on when she wants them and she did not that night) you are right, she is very intelligent! when this was happening i tried to meet every need i could think of yet she still barked. I felt that obviously she wanted something...and I HAD NO CLUE! it went on for about 10 mins before I got my phone for the video. at that point, i was trying to ignore the undesired behavior. obviously that didn't work!

 

So, if one night of sleep is any indication of being on the right track, we wonder what was different.

Well, our routine is restablished, and Snowy got a new toy called monster mouth. its a puzzle toy into which a treat is placed. At first she wasn't very interested, but she hung in there and got that treat. She brought me the toy and put it on the couch as if to say," look what I did!" she had the happiest look on her face and I swear she was smiling! So...Snowy needs a lot of mental stimulation to prevent boredom, I think. Another new thing that Snowy is doing is playing with the other dogs. REALLY playing not trying to dominate them. optimistic about that...

 

Me, I'M still in love w my Snowy and enjoying every new experience with her. We are still developing our relationship that will endure for the long haul. All things are fixable, or at least manageable. I really believe that. I'm going to get the recommended readings from posts in this thread and develop my understanding of doggie behaviors. I've had many dogs in my life and Snowy is quite unique and definately right up there at the top of my list of sweethearts.

 

Thanks, everyone for your greyt advice.

Kathy

[3greytjoys]

Batmom's mention of watching Snowy during potty outings is very important. Many hounds try to come back inside before doing their business. Addition to teaching do "business," I teach different commands for pee and poop. They DO understand the differences. Two of our girls often try to come back inside before they've peed. I make direct eye contact with them, and tell them to go "PEE" (or poop), and they do it! If I missed seeing my broodie pee, she makes tight circles then stands at the door to tell me she's already done that! They are sooo funny!

 

When your night video recording began, seemed Snowy was near the door(?) leading outside. Her nightime initial awakenings may have been from lack of daytime exercise (or potty needs), then not finishing her business during the 2:15 a.m. outing, or hearing a wild critter outside, etc.

 

Many Greyhounds truly do smile. (Some people are frightened by seeing a Greyhound's lips raised with teeth showing - not realizing their dog is simply showing great happiness/joy.) Snowy reminds me of our brood matron, who also smiles when very, very happy. Snowy was likely thrilled with her new fun puzzle! Great that she's playing so well with your other dogs. It's clear you are long time animal lovers, and I think you've scored an exceptionally great girl in Snowy! Continue to have fun with her, and please do take her to obedience training classes, and continue studying deeper canine language. Both should be positive, life-changing bonding experiences.

Edited February 28, 2013 by 3greytjoys

[Guest grandmagrey]

Snowy's urine and stool specimens checked out ok this afternoon. The vet thought anxiety. offered meds. I took them (Ativan)but only will use if extreme behavior happens. i'd rather not.

I leave my dogs out until they are done and ask to come in so I don't think it was a potty issue. Snowy does know "pee" and "Poop" She will go on a lead when we visit my daughter who doesnt have a fenced in yard. In the video, She was standing near her food bowl which is raised and was full of food and water. she walked

between the living room and kitchen in the video. The door in the background is a slider and she does go right up to it when she needs to potty. I think more likely a critter outside. Our neighbor has a dog she likes to run the fence with maybe he was out?

She got a good walk in today and was jubilant during it. Just she and I went and made it girl time. 3 of my 4 walk very slowly and Snowy does not! so that works out well. I can take Snowy on a walk and then pick up the others and she still walks faster than them. lol... She got time w my hubby when I took the others on a walk. (my husband has a foot injury and doesn't do walks right now) this means more exercise for me, but that's a good thing.

Found a great highly recommended trainer near Toledo, but can't get in until the end of April. Really want to get going on it, so I will look around some more.

Oh! almost forgot! making bells for the door...why not? they will be cute and Snowy

will enjoy the mental stimulation, I think. If the other dogs use them, that's good,

too.

movin down the right road, I think!

Edited March 1, 2013 by grandmagrey

[JJNg]

Glad to hear things are improving. The change in routine from you being sick and not playing with her as much could definitely have triggered the change in behavior. Hopefully that's all it was. Have her potty accidents gone away too? The OP indicated that she was having accidents in response to being disciplined or redirected... was that not the case?

Personally, I wouldn't dwell too much of her history of mistreatment or abuse. While it may have some influence on her behavior, your current interactions are more important and more directly related to how she acts and what she learns. Focus on learning to read her signals and observe how your actions and responses influence her behavior. Best wishes, and keep us posted on how things are going.

[Guest grandmagrey]

OMG!!! are we stupid or what!??
lol
in the 16 days before this change in behavior began, my husband was out of the country on business! i think that might have been a trigger for her frustration/anxiety. Our routine was definately altered. She might not have understood that he was coming back. and when he did get home, we both had the flu ...he brought it from China and i got it within 1 day. we were not in our usual routine even then. Our other dogs just seemed to go with the flow...but I think Snowy might have wondered where her wonderful, fun life went!? She no longer played/calmed herself. She wasn't getting her usual
exercise. She let me know her world was not acceptable and I DON'T BLAME HER! if that was it, I'm going to use it to understand her better. learning a lot here. Snowy is sensitive--much more so than our other dogs. I think that shows her level of intelligence. I

ordered the 2 books recommended How to Speak Dog, and Other End of the Leash today...thank you.... still researching for a trainer. And Loving Snowy. we've had a greyt day around here with all pets. plus the weekend is here and my

grandog is coming for spring break with my daughter.

 

 

[Guest grandmagrey]

Glad to hear things are improving. The change in routine from you being sick and not playing with her as much could definitely have triggered the change in behavior. Hopefully that's all it was. Have her potty accidents gone away too? The OP indicated that she was having accidents in response to being disciplined or redirected... was that not the case?

 

Personally, I wouldn't dwell too much of her history of mistreatment or abuse. While it may have some influence on her behavior, your current interactions are more important and more directly related to how she acts and what she learns. Focus on learning to read her signals and observe how your actions and responses influence her behavior. Best wishes, and keep us posted on how things are going.

Potty accidents have not occurred in 2 days. I blocked off the room where she went & cleaned the carpet with urine remover. the potty prob was after 2 bed growl incidents when I made her get down. I was not physical and did not raise my voice. She had a terrible look on her face, like she was really mad. OP thought that was response to my making her get off my bed. She was just really upset! She will not be allowed in my bed if she growls at me. Mad or not. I cannot allow a chance at a bite. i worry that it will be reported if I have to seek medical attention...that happened to a neighbor whose dog got excited and nipped during play. They lost their dog and he was labeled dangerous. Their daughter "stole" him or he would have been put down. They don't allow small children to get in his face and he is fine. I really want this to be a successful relationship. The bed thing will have to be dealt with yet. More advice always welcome!

 

Agree and understand about not dwelling on the past.It does matter for a certain level of understanding her but we are moving only forward from now on!

Edited March 1, 2013 by grandmagrey

[Guest petstores]

Greyaholic made a great point about the fact that it takes time for a dog's behavior to change while you train. It may seem hard at first, but keep working on training him at least a couple times per day or whenever you get time. The most important thing is persistance. Many people have issues with training older dogs because they think it's impossible to teach an old dog new tricks. This is not true. Any dog can learn almost anything, it just takes longer with the older adults.

 

Keep going, you sound like you are on the right track so far!

[Guest k9soul]

I don't have any advice to add, you've already received so many good responses. But I wanted to state my admiration for your positive outlook, your determination that you and Snowy can work these issues out, and how much you obviously love her and accept her just the way she is. Snowy is so lucky to have gotten such a wonderful new family

[Guest grandmagrey]

Update!

Snowy has been an angel lately. No potty accidents. No wild barking. We have 2 new fosters and she had a little trouble accepting that. She is not trying to dominate everyone. Idk for sure what helped us turn the corner, esp since we tried several different things. Thankful for all the advice and Snowy's good behavior!