Raw Feeding, Carbs And Vitamins

[Guest KiShi]

We moved our greys and cats alike onto raw chicken a few months ago (whole pieces, NO grinding). Their coats are fuller and softer, poops solid, everything is better.

My adoption service recently advised me that pure protein can be hard on the kidneys for the greys. Now the only research I can find that relates to her claim, is in regards to RACING greyhounds, specifying that the kidneys cannot metabolize the protein from both the diet and the run. And most all of the stats seem to relate to improving track time, and short term energy availability and burning (carbs). Please see link below for example.

Now our retired greys aren't racing or doing any "hard runs" regularly, so I'm not sure the carbs are necessary.

 

Also, we supplement fish oil, but since there is no grinding or processing, my understanding is the meat contains the minerals and vitamins necessary. At the very least, they are all doing much better on their raw diet than they were on any commercial food, so the results are proof, but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything.

What do you guys do?

 

Does anybody have any input? Thanks so much!

All the best,

 

http://www.virbac.com.au/p-virbacaupuben/display.aspx?srv=p-virbacau&typ=pub&lang=en&cmd=view&style=styles/page2.xsl&select=PAGE%5B@ID$eq$PAGE_120%5D&generic1=ARTICLE_1148&affp=&

[Guest KiShi]

They get about 10km of walking per day, about 70-80% of which is in the morning. Perhaps a small serving of carbs with their breakfast? They maintain beautiful weight and muscle tone on raw (our 11yr old always obese cat is losing weight at record speed on it too!) so I wouldn't want the carbs to throw them off.

Thanks again everyone for your participation'

[JAJ2010]

I'm jealous that you were able to move your cats over! Mine are too picky and will starve themselves...

 

I don't worry about protein amounts and follow a prey model diet. Are you only feeding chicken? That's a good meal to start on but I try to rotate meats as much as possible so they have a more well rounded nutritional diet. I aim for 10% organ meat (5% liver and 5% something else) 10% bone, and 80$ muscle meat. I just try to get the ratios to even out over a week or two. The organ meat is important since that's where the bulk of the vitamins come from.

 

Right now I have venison, sea bass, bunch of other fish I cannot remember right now, chicken, turkey, pork, beef, and lamb in my freezers for the pups. I try to give them at least 2-3 different meats a week.

 

and I do not feed any carbs. I noticed that as soon as I start feeding carbs their teeth get plaquey. They do love the occasional french fry though...

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

Are the cats eating the bones? If not, I would consider grinding so the bones are small enough for the kitties to safely ingest, or finding another way to supplement their calcium. Also, cats cannot get enough taurine from just chicken meat, they should be getting a supplement.

[Guest KennelMom]

Dogs, like People, do not need carbs . Actually probably less so than people...I think you're referring to exertional rhadbomyelosis which is related to conditioning not diet.

[Guest KiShi]

Thanks guys!!

 

JAJ2010, the cats starved themselves for a few days, almost a week, but a few months down the road and they will hardly touch kibble or canned food!

Rotating meat is my ultimate goal (I bought lamb the other day and NONE of them liked it lol!) Where do you get yours from? We feed close to 6lb/day. We're looking hard for a butcher or a farmer in the area to get our meat from, but no luck yet. Now they get hearts, gizzards, smashed and cut necks, cartilage, liver, and any other parts I can get my hands on.

 

Jayne, thanks. What kind of supplement for the taurine? Tare eating the liver and hearts as well. And yes they eat up the neck bones, as well as some softer pieces from the breast, and joint cartilage.

[NeylasMom]

I think you need to do some additional research on feeding a raw diet. There are a few good raw feeding yahoo groups that can provide a lot of support, or if you google "prey model raw diet" you should come up with some helpful info. Of course, this is a good place to start to.

 

It's hard to tell from your post so if you're already feeding bone, forgive me, but dogs cannot subsist on meat alone. They need nutrients that are available in bone as well. They also need a variety of meats, and organ meat is a particularly important part of that variety as it contains nutrients (especially liver) that aren't found in other meats.

 

If you think about the idea behind feeding raw, that we are feeding a biologically appropriate diet, then the idea is to replicate what they would eat in the wild, which is whole prey, and not just one type. Hence the percentages of 80, 10, 10 because that's about the breakdown of meat, organ, and edible bone in whole prey. Of course it's not realistic for us to feed whole prey that often (athough whole rabbits and chickens are good choices once your dogs become more efficient raw feeders), so we break it down and feed it in parts as meat, meaty bones, and organ.

 

As for pure protein, meat isn't pure protein. You can use the USDA website to look up the nutritional value of various cuts of meat to get an idea of the breakdown of meat, fat, nutrients, etc. FYI, meat is a large percentage of water, so you may notice your animals drinking less from the water bowl - totally normal. For instance, here is the breakdown of a raw chicken thigh, with skin intact:

 

Nutrient Unit

Value per thigh with skin

189g

Refuse: 15% Refuse Description: Bone and cartilage 15%

Water g 125.89

Energy kcal 414

Protein g 30.69

Total lipid (fat) 31.39

Ash 1.53

Carbohydrate, by difference 0.47

Fiber, total dietary g 0.0

Sugars, total g 0.00

 

 

ETA: I do think a fish oil supplement is a good choice if the majority of what you're feeding is not pastured meat, but if the diet is properly balanced you shouldn't need any other supplements. I'm only talking dogs, I know nothing about cats.

Edited April 20, 2012 by NeylasMom

[Guest KiShi]

NeylasMom, thank you for your contribution. I apologize if my posts were unclear, but you should know my hounds/cats are already eating in line with your recommendations.

Hopefully this is more clear:

Both the hounds and the cats get chicken meat, bones (dogs get them whole, cats get them smashed), liver, heart, gizzard, as a standard, and I pick up some different pieces when they are available.

They are all supplemented with Omega-3 fish oil.

[JAJ2010]

I also usually cycle through different types of oil. Reg fish oil, grizzly salmon oil, sardine oil, coconut oil, olive oil, flax seed, etc I switch it up every 3 months or so.

 

Are you anywhere near DE/NJ? The best places I've used is a guy who is a supplier from Blue Ridge

http://www.ken-nelpetfooddistributors.com/

I think they have those suppliers all over the USA though and I'm sure prices vary. Since your feeding so much a small town butcher shop and TONS of freezer space will be your best bet. Maybe search Yahoo Groups to see if there is a co op in your area for raw feeding? The mroe you can buy at once the better the prices. I tend to get approx 400-500lbs at a time.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

If the kitties are eating heart, that's supposed to have a good amount of taurine in it. Just as long as they aren't only eating muscle meat.

[Guest KiShi]

I will add that I am not a fan of websites such as yahoo. The free Internet can be a dangerously misleading place.. I do participate in forums and group discussions, but it is critical not to limit yourself. There are many alternative resources to be exploited, including, but not limited to medical reports and journals, libraries and veterinarians; which I have been dissecting extensively.

[JAJ2010]

If your not into searching http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RAW-Lighter/ is a good solid raw feeding yahoo group.

 

In order to find raw feeding co-ops in your area to get a discount on meat you will have to search around for a bit.

[Guest jbbuzby]

Thanks guys!!

 

JAJ2010, the cats starved themselves for a few days, almost a week, but a few months down the road and they will hardly touch kibble or canned food!

 

 

I know you might have been exaggerating, but please do be careful about kitties missing meals. Cats can get extremely sick even if they don't eat within 24 hours, and they are the only animal on the planet that actually *will* starve themselves to get what they want. Going a few days without food can do permanent damage to their organs.

 

In any case though, I'm glad to hear they love their raw now! I hope it continues to work out for all your babies.

[NeylasMom]

NeylasMom, thank you for your contribution. I apologize if my posts were unclear, but you should know my hounds/cats are already eating in line with your recommendations.

Hopefully this is more clear:

Both the hounds and the cats get chicken meat, bones (dogs get them whole, cats get them smashed), liver, heart, gizzard, as a standard, and I pick up some different pieces when they are available.

They are all supplemented with Omega-3 fish oil.

Great, then the only suggestion of mine and others that stands is introducing other proteins (assuming the liver/heart/gizzard is all also poultry). I would focus on adding beef products first.

 

I will add that I am not a fan of websites such as yahoo. The free Internet can be a dangerously misleading place.. I do participate in forums and group discussions, but it is critical not to limit yourself. There are many alternative resources to be exploited, including, but not limited to medical reports and journals, libraries and veterinarians; which I have been dissecting extensively.

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of research studies to be had on feeding a raw diet to dogs because most food studies are funded by food makers. There's just not a good source of funding for studies on raw diet. So in the end, some of the information we raw feeders rely on is technically "anecdotal", but there are folks in those raw forums who have a wealth of collective experience to me that counts for a lot. They can also point you in the direction of relevant research and websites if you want to learn for yourself (and I think everyone should) so you don't have to reinvent the wheel.