Need Some Support And Advice

[kudzu]

If you want to return him, I'd just contact the group and tell them you're bringing them back. If you don't feel comfortable working with them again or they say that they can't get you another dog, there are so many groups out there that would be willing to work with you I'm sure. Don't let any one make you feel inferior for not being able to deal with a dog with a strong personality like his. Not everyone is meant to deal with dogs like him.

Ditto this & what both Iconsmum & Cwholsin said. I am sorry your group's response came across as treating you inferior & unsupported. From what you wrote I would probably feel the same way. With help & strong effort on your part it might work out. Sometimes people give up too soon & this is probably part of the thinking behind your group's response. However, as much as I work to encourage people to consider training & behavior modification first before turning a dog back in to a group, there are some situations where waiting & trying to work it out is not the best idea. Yours may well be one of this situations. It certainly won't help anyone if his behavior escalate even more.

 

As much as I love working with my dogs & as much as I am willing to work on retraining some behaviors, the type of dog you are describing would be totally wrong for my home. I would have to return him or risk him ending up escalating the behavior even more before it got better. Though would also risk him ending up with a bite record. Such a thing does no one any good at all.

 

ETA: Be cautious with how you correct him. Anything aversive or confrontational, like squirt bottles or growly voices, could risk him feeling he needs to try harder to protect "his" stuff. Also, trading up is great for training dogs to safely allow humans to take things away but in your situation you will need a lot more than that. The toys he is taking are not forbidden or dangerous items he shouldn't have. Trading up won't readily teach him not to bully your girly Grey. Something like "Leading the dance" will help where his behavior with humans is involved & a side effect may be improved relations with other dogs... or not. [Link to "Leading the Dance", a form of NILIF: http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page8/ ] The catch with this approach is that some of the suggestions presume the dog has other training, like Sit, Down, or Stay. You can substitute something else, like remaining back from the door & not moving forward in place of a sit. Still, you've get extra training to do at the same time you're working through it & in the meantime you have a lot, a LOT of careful management you'll need to practice. Like I said, there are situations where this just isn't a good deal for any involved & my home would be one of them. Good luck. Keep us updated & please feel free to ask more questions.

Edited October 4, 2011 by kudzu

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

verthib,

I really hope you didn't take my post as "mocking" you. That was not my intent. All of us that have offered suggestions have different levels of experience, as well as different levels of ability when it comes to managing groups of hounds. I am a foster home (a few dozen fosters-mainly broken leg long term fosters) as well as until recently a cat home as well. I was a cat tester for my group as well as I do other things. I have three of my own hounds as well as I mentioned that I almost always have at least 1 foster around the house.

From what you describe I would not say in way shape or form that your hound is aggressive. Please don't take that from this thread. Your boy is not aggressive, he simply doesn't know the rules and you have given him some really high value items he has never had. He simply thinks that you are going to take them away and never let him have them again. The NILF and obedience training will get him to trust you, with the trust you will see a much reduced desire to "posses" things as he trusts you to give them back to him. The issue with your girl, again when you have better obedience from him you will be able to call him off of her if you so desire. I agree that a reason that your group appears not to be so willing to take the hound back is because they may feel that this is a knee jerk reaction and things will work themselves out. As I said, I do work with a few groups and it is very very common for new adopters to react to things and just want to throw up their hands and give the hound back. Not saying that is what you are doing, but it is a common reaction, especially with cats.

Now, as far as the cat issue goes...

There are a few things that you haven't motioned about your cat, is your cat a runner, fighter, or statue? If your cat is a runner or statue, this is typical prey actions and the most difficult to acclimate to a new greyhound. If you have a fighter, then things will be easy. The two main ways that I acclimate a new greyhound to cats is

1) Positive reinforcement- one person has the hound with a leash and muzzle on. The other person brings in the cat. When the hound looks at the cat, the person holding the hound calls his name or otherwise makes a noise to get the attention of the hound. Once the hound's attention has been obtained, treat. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

2) Correction- using a squirt gun filled with water, you allow the hound to sniff the kittty (again, on leash and muzzled). If the hound starts any inappropriate behavior, you give a short "aH!" and then immediately followed by a squirt in the but. If he does not react, then you need to repeat but spray in the head/ear region. Know that if any of the spray gets on the cat, it will probably bolt, which will then really make the hound want to chase. You cannot allow the chase. If you allow the chase, then it rewards the negative behavior and makes it more difficult to train away.

If at any time your hound puffs his cheeks, drools, if you cannot break the stare of your hound when he is staring at the cat in the same room, or if he sees the cat and "hunts" for the cat and cannot be redirected to wards a treat or other goodies, then you need to muzzle, crate and definitely call your group and tell them that your hound doesn't appear to be cat-workable. The main thing with the non cat-workable determination is if you stand in front of your hound when he is staring at the cat, if your hound continuously tries to get around to you see the cat and you can do nothing to stop this (as mentioned the treat in front of his nose), then your cat could be in danger.

Understand that there will be interest on your dogs part for the cat, it is only natural for them to be interested in the small creature so don't be so worried if he wants to sniff or event play-bow with the cat, this will take some time to get rid of, but it is very possible.

 

Without knowing the full extent of the cat issue, I really don't think your situation is that dire and I do believe that it is just your boy settling in and with some consistent training, things will be just fine.

 

Chad

[Guest verthib]

Wow, lots of advice ! THANK YOU!! I didn't think anyone was mocking me. I feel confident enough to know that we aren't knee-jerking. With that being said, I do know that if everyone did that, the rescues would be innundated with returned dogs, and I know they want people to stick it out to see if it will work, however that wasn't the reaction/message I got from them and I'll leave it at that. I don't want this to be about bashing my rescue. They do good work and I am proud of them, I just think overall they need better people skills.

I have two cats, one 10 y.o. and one 11 y.o. The 10 year old is the boss of the house. He's 25 lbs and he slaps the dogs in the nose if they get too close, and now even Angus doesn't bother him. My 11 year old is like Gracie, he is meek and shy and will run away. We have been working with him to not run because we feel this can't always be about correcting the dog, the cat does play a part in it. It is working better. Also, an important note is he is always muzzled if the cats are not gated. I do not not let him roam the house with the cats un-muzzled, it's just too soon. The problem arises when Angus is in his crate and has a "high value" item. Sometimes it's puzzling because he's had these items before (i.e. a benzo ball) out and about and it wasn't a big deal, but once he brings something into his crate, he becomes terratorial. We have been working with that as well. We are no longer giving him a benzo ball, unless he is crated and we are gone and the cats are gated. This is similar to folks giving their dogs kongs. My dogs hate kongs, so both get a benzo ball in their crate while we're gone. No more walking around the house with it, and then retreating into the crate and then protecting it. Also, no more cat sized suffies! (spare me the lecture on that one lol) Additionally, we have been hand feeding him, and sometimes will keep him muzzled while in the crate and put our hands in it to give him stuffed animals and trade up, pat him, etc. I don't want his crate to become a high territorial thing for him. Yes, it's his safe place, but it's also not off limits to us. I am not ashamed to say that he is more high maintenance and more work than we anticipated. Some folks are more experienced. It doesn't make us lesser or inferior (and I know no one is saying that), it just means we are where some of you were long ago. I really DO appreciate all the advice. I am going to try the leashing outside, and also the body blocking to remove him if he gets too bully-ish. I also wanted to address the person who said he isn't aggressive. I have always referred to him as a bully. If I said aggressive, I only meant that his behavior is more aggressive in general than Gracie's is, and it's frustrating at times to balance that. We've also decided to give them some one-on-one time. He LOVES playing with his squeeky football outside and Gracie could care less. She loves this raccoon thing that Angus just takes over...so last night we gave him some outside time with my husband and the football, and Gracie some raccoon time inside with me. They both got tired and all was well. I am torn on whether to keep him...but for last night and today, my feeling is "this will take a lot of work, but he's worth it". He has some great qualities... like forgiving me for bonking him on the head with the dog food container, lol... he's great with us clipping his nails, he lets us examine his teeth and brush them, he is friendly with people, and with most dogs, even little ones. If he meets another alpha male he will growl some, but it usually goes away. He loves my mother, he is good with kids, and he's handsome to boot! --And most of the time he and Gracie are fine together. Remove the toys and benzo balls, (and free running in the yard) and they get along great. lol We'll see where this goes....

Thanks again everyone!

Edited October 4, 2011 by verthib

[JAJ2010]

Ir really just sounds like he's not too sure about what his role in the house is. If you tell him what he should be doing (sit here, wait there, no barking at that, no toy stealing, no guarding, etc) It will remove some of the question in his mind. He most likely thinks he has to be in charge. Blatantly take that away from him and I bet he will thrive on his new routine and set of rules. My perfect greyhound took a chunk out of the cat when she first came and guarded bones from us humans. She was just a bit lost and confused. Didn't know what the rules were yet. Dogs usually really do enjoy having clear concrete rules. Takes all the anxiety out of life if you know exactly what is expected of you.

 

Please keep us posted on how it's going!

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

One last thing, the two cats you describe, you have the PERFECT setup for greyhound cat training. I used to have your same situation. This is what I used to do when I had one runner and one fighter:

 

1) close all doors in hallway-except bathroom, put fighter kitty in bathroom

2) take runner cat into the room with the muzzled & leashed greyhound, put the runner down

3) let greyhound close to runner, runner would do what she does, and run directly into the open room (bathroom)

4) I would allow the greyhound to FOLLOW, not chase.

5) once greyhound turned into the bathroom and met the fighter face to face, the fighter would teach the greyhound a lesson.

 

This is also the way I would test greyhounds to determine their aptitude for being tolerant of cats.

 

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

Chad

 

ps. I was mentioning the "aggressive" issue not from your post, but from someone else saying your hound is aggressive. I just wanted to clarify so that you didn't perceive your hound as aggressive.

[SPDoggie]

Our experience was not as severe as yours, but we did find that we could no longer have toys out for the dogs when our Alpha girl showed up and really dominated over our shy boy. But once we removed things that she was using to "control" him (or take-away his fun) all was fine and she did not act like a bully.

 

I might remove all the toys first and then work on all the advice been given about teaching him his place.

 

Good, good luck

[TheFullHouse]

He sounds so much like my Valentino. He did not know his place either. Once he figured out that he didn't have to be in charge and figured out his place in the pack with us at the top, the turn around was amazing and today he is a sweet, wonderful boy. It took us some time but it was so worth it. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[Guest verthib]

He sounds so much like my Valentino. He did not know his place either. Once he figured out that he didn't have to be in charge and figured out his place in the pack with us at the top, the turn around was amazing and today he is a sweet, wonderful boy. It took us some time but it was so worth it. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

Thanks Jilly, and thanks everyone! I have to be honest and say that in just two days we do notice slight improvement...so I can imagine that after weeks and months he will only improve (I hope!) Our trainer also contacted us again and has offered her assistance and sent some information that I need to read. I feel better all around that we have support. Like I said before, I think we just were not anticipating a dog that would be more difficult than Gracie and we also have not had large dogs in years, so this was a eye opener!

I wish I knew how to post a photo in a response, then you'd see how I just can't refuse a dog with a face like his lol

Edited October 5, 2011 by verthib

[Guest Amber]

Hi

I think I'm inclined to agree that Angus maybe isn't the best match for your other dog. It's no good for anyone if one dog is a bully who throws his weight around - I've had to return a couple of fosters for this sort of behaviour against my female greyhound (who is not too good at sticking up for herself).

 

Yes, you could work on it and maybe improve things, but if you and your other dog (not to mention the cats!!)don't really feel comfortable with his personality it might not work out.

 

I think on the grounds of him not being cat-tolerant alone, the rescue should accept him back. After all, what will happen if one of your cats meets him unexpectedly in the house?? Even with a muzzle on, he could do serious damage if he corners one.

 

Also, I don't really think it's ideal for him to be either constantly crated or muzzled.

 

I'm sure he is a great dog, but maybe just not one that likes to share attention and toys & may be better in a single-dog and cat-free home.

 

I hope you can get something sorted out.

 

ETA if you do want to keep trying, yes you'll need to be really clear to him about what is acceptable and what isn't. When you let them outside together, assume that he IS going to bully your other dog and be ready to step in immediately (very quickly) and leash him up and take him inside for a time-out of around 30-60 seconds. Take him outside again and at the first sign of inappropriate behaviour, he goes back inside the house again. You can keep repeating this until he cottons on that his unwanted behaviour causes him to be put inside. This is called negative punishment - you are taking away something the dog wants (to be outside with everyone else).

 

You may need to do this training with him on leash at first, so that you can intercept any OTT behaviour by taking him inside immediately (and also to prevent your girl getting upset with his barging around).

 

You don't need to say anything, don't scold him or act annoyed in any way, just calmly walk him into the house.

 

But the other side of the coin is that you MUST reward him for good behaviour around your girl. When they are amicably mooching along together on their walks, lots of praise and some treats. If you crate him whilst she is playing with her toys, he gets a super-yummy kong in his crate. If you get him to the point of being out in the yard with her and acting polite, then LOTS of tasty food rewards.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Amber

[Guest verthib]

Hi

I think I'm inclined to agree that Angus maybe isn't the best match for your other dog. It's no good for anyone if one dog is a bully who throws his weight around - I've had to return a couple of fosters for this sort of behaviour against my female greyhound (who is not too good at sticking up for herself).

 

Yes, you could work on it and maybe improve things, but if you and your other dog (not to mention the cats!!)don't really feel comfortable with his personality it might not work out.

 

I think on the grounds of him not being cat-tolerant alone, the rescue should accept him back. After all, what will happen if one of your cats meets him unexpectedly in the house?? Even with a muzzle on, he could do serious damage if he corners one.

 

Also, I don't really think it's ideal for him to be either constantly crated or muzzled.

 

I'm sure he is a great dog, but maybe just not one that likes to share attention and toys & may be better in a single-dog and cat-free home.

 

I hope you can get something sorted out.

 

Thanks Amber. I should clarify that Angus is not "always" crated or muzzled. We do gate off the cats from the dogs for periods throughout the day. Also, greys are accustomed to being muzzled for hours and hours at a time at the track. He just retired a few weeks ago and is used to being muzzled. At night he is gated in our bedroom with us, and the cats are gated out, so he has no muzzle on for sleeping. He is crated when we leave, which is pretty common for folks to do. He is muzzled when we want all dogs and cats to be free so they can learn to interact, although he is not allowed to "corner" a cat because he is gated on the floor we're on. For example he cannot run upstairs and corner a cat. We pretty much know where the dogs are at all times so we can monitor their interactions with the cats. If we have a lot of company over he is crated just because of the excitment and if we're eating with guests, I really don't want him nosing around their food. He has a good cushy life, trust me. We are not 100% certain we are keeping him but my feeling at this moment (which could change) is that he deserves a chance and we are willing to work hard at it.

[Guest Amber]

Thanks for explaining - that's good that he is kept away from the cats I think and gets some muzzle-free time too!

 

Good luck with whatever you decide, hope it works out for you.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Excellent advice from Chad.

 

How long have you had each dog? I suspect it's just too soon for all these toys and high value items to be out. Put them away, let the dogs get acclimated and settled and establish the pecking order, let them play with each other first. Then you can introduce some toys.

Some dogs are always more territorial when inside a crate, especially with an item of higher value. That might never change.

If either dog gets too rough with playing in the yard, a firm voice correction will help. Gracie might get nervous from that, but there's no way around that. I would only intervene if Gracie looks traumatized or is backed into a corner. Sometimes they just play rough, the dog that's on the receiving end might not "mind" that much. It seems Gracie will defend herself too though, if she growled at him in the beginning for humping her. So she might not be that upset by some of his rough-housing as you think.

 

Some dogs are always the "fun police" and "toy hoarders". Lily steals toys from everyone and runs off with them. If I want the shyer dogs to feel confident playing, then Lily goes into her crate with a bone, or outside with a tennis ball. If a dog is actively chewing a toy she usually won't try to take it, or one "Lily....." warning from me and she stops and looks guilty.

 

Take both dogs on a lot of walks together. It's a non-confrontational way for them to bond and get used to being around each other. (And nothing to fight over).

 

As for Angus growling at you, you need to teach "Trading Up". People get too worked up over the concept of the human being "alpha". Most dogs won't do what you tell them just because you said so. Independent breeds like sighthounds especially, it's what's in it for them? Why would they give you their yummy bone/ball/whatever when you ask for it? They know you are taking it away. You need to make giving up a high-value item a good thing, not a negative thing. Hence trading up, and also teaching the "drop it" command. And you can't demand that a dog follow the drop it command, if you haven't actually taught it to them yet. They have no clue what you're commanding of them, they only know you want to steal their ball.

 

I also hope you ditched that trainer. Not so sure I agree with their advice.

 

When asking your adoption group for advice, a lot of it depends on the phrasing. Something like "I want to give this dog back, it's bullying Gracie" is very different from "He is bullying Gracie, any advice?" That said, not all groups are created equal with post-adoption support.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~