Glued-To-Your-Hip Heel

[Guest Giselle]

I fully admit: this behavior really frustrates me sometimes. Aside from having an insanely focused Border Collie, what are some tips or suggestions you have tried to help you achieve the glued-to-your-hip-Heel?? Or, if you haven't tried them personally, what methods have you observed that worked successfully? No punitive or compulsion methods, please. We want a thinking dog!

[3greytjoys]

I fully admit: this behavior really frustrates me sometimes. Aside from having an insanely focused Border Collie, what are some tips or suggestions you have tried to help you achieve the glued-to-your-hip-Heel?? Or, if you haven't tried them personally, what methods have you observed that worked successfully? No punitive or compulsion methods, please. We want a thinking dog!

 

Holding treats with my teeth (like pieces of low fat string cheese) and doing figure 8's or unexpected starts, stops and turns worked well to keep their attention on me and keep them in a very close to thigh heel position. One of my hounds does a glued-to-my-leg heel frequently (even indoors) simply responding to affectionate praise. There are probably better methods but that's worked well for my dogs.

[Batmom]

A LOT of turns, starts, stops, different commands at the stops, varying speeds, a really "up" manner ..... Depending on the dog, offleash work -- with no leash, their only parameter is *you*.

[Guest Giselle]

I do all of those, and it's a good foundation. But how do you teach a glued-to-your-hip Heel such that, when you side step, the dog side steps in perfect synchronization with you? Ivy's side-steps lag because she doesn't necessarily understand the "Glue your right leg to my left leg" concept. I fail at the side-step with other folks' dogs, too. They "heels" perfectly fine for things more lax like Rally-O, but, overall, the heels are not acceptable for something like competitive obed (or freestyle!). Thoughts? How do you teach "Glue-your-leg-to-my-leg" as a concept in and of itself?? I saw one suggestion of targeting. And I've seen a person train her Whippet to touch its hip to a target as a body-awareness exercise, but I tried and I failed miserably I don't get it

[Batmom]

Really like anything else. Reward what you want and ignore the rest. Some people have a "with me" or "keep close" command for that. You don't want the dog to touch you, just be close. Could try working with some cones -- sort of like weave poles but not so close -- and gradually replace the cones with smaller and smaller objects. That would help to reinforce the motion and the command/signal.

 

But. Special techniques like that might not be necessary. Might just try heavily rewarding the heel. Most people don't -- they reward the sits, stops, etc. and sort of take the heel for granted. That works pretty well with shelties and b.c.'s, but others may need extra instruction in the concept of "we are working now and I need to watch my person every last second," KWIM?

[Batmom]

P.S. When you're working on stuff like this, it helps to get the dog waaaaaaaaaaay charged up and to work *fast*.

[Guest iconsmum]

Clicker. Check out Kathy Sdao's seminars that include a norwegian trainer teaching lab puppies to move in sync with the trainer -their front paws are on a raised box and their back legs are searching for prime position, c/t. His point is that body awareness in the back end is the necessity. I'm trying to remember his name...I'll let you know when it comes to me.

[Guest Giselle]

Clicker. Check out Kathy Sdao's seminars that include a norwegian trainer teaching lab puppies to move in sync with the trainer -their front paws are on a raised box and their back legs are searching for prime position, c/t. His point is that body awareness in the back end is the necessity. I'm trying to remember his name...I'll let you know when it comes to me.

I think the Whippet gal I was watching was doing a form of this! I clearly remember her teaching the Whippet to move its rear end in circles while keeping its front feet on a box. I've tried this on a whole bunch of dogs, and I never get the desired response (or I have no idea what I'm looking for). Please, show me the video or the steps!!

 

I know it has a lot to dog with body awareness because dogs I work with heel VERY well for something less rigorous like Rally-O. I reward for staying in position while in motion and I'm the queen of using circles as corrective exercises to prevent straying. We do serpentines and figure-8's as regular exercises every day for rally. The issue is that the dog doesn't understand the *position* very well: For example, when I side-step, the dog tends to follow me in a perpendicular manner rather than staying parallel with my body. They lead with their head rather than their right-front leg, which ends up looking like a super sloppy heel and makes them lag. Gah!!

[Guest Giselle]

Was this the seminar/training you were talking about?? ETA: Scroll down to "Rear End Control"

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1763

 

----

Edit: AH HA!!! I found it! It's called "perchwork", and, apparently, it's a common agility precursor to 2 on 2 off. That's funny... I taught 2o2o a different way with Ivy, and she still has really great body awareness with it. I guess the trick is turning 2o2o basics into a heel exercise. That makes things a little clearer =)

Edited May 31, 2011 by Giselle

[Guest CampWhippet]

I fully admit: this behavior really frustrates me sometimes. Aside from having an insanely focused Border Collie, what are some tips or suggestions you have tried to help you achieve the glued-to-your-hip-Heel?? Or, if you haven't tried them personally, what methods have you observed that worked successfully? No punitive or compulsion methods, please. We want a thinking dog!

 

Sammie is one of these. I've been working on it by always keeping Tansy between us. Tansy knows to stay a good foot or more off me and that seems to be teaching Sammie that it is ok to move wider.

 

I blame my wife. She took Sammie to obedience school and taught her to do these anoying behavior.

[Batmom]

You could also practice some sit-sidestep/heel-sit-sidestep-heel right in front of a wall. I've seen folks use a cardboard wrapping-paper tube or other long, light pole to sort of box the dog in on the other side (keeping in mind that you don't want to touch the dog with it -- if you touch the hindquarters, for example, hindquarters will swing towards the tube). I have seen that work for some dogs, not others. My "glued" dogs I think got their good follow from learning to sit straight.

 

It's also helpful to remember not to look at the dog except out of the corner of your eye. Don't turn your face toward the dog -- that invites the dog to turn to face you.

[sobesmom]

Well this thread is the exact opposite of what I thought it would be!

 

When I walk Diana and tell her "walk with me" which is our "heel" command, (as opposed to the wander I allow for sniffing, peeing, exploring) she actually leans into me a little while walking, which gets really annoying. I've tried all the things mentioned - quick starts, stops, turns, etc, to get her a couple inches OFF me - to no avail. I've demonstrated it to friends in the fenced yard, without a leash even, and she's like fly-paper! (BTW - she's DEFINATELY not a spook, and I didn't train this intentionally, other than "walk with me" meaning walk beside me).

 

Apparently she's really good at this glued to my hip thing... - and I didn't even know it was desirable!

 

When you figure out how to glue your dog - tell me how to un-glue mine!!!

[MaryJane]

Is your dog tall enough that your left hand could be on the upper part of Ivy's left leg's shoulder to "box" Ivy in?

[Batmom]

When you figure out how to glue your dog - tell me how to un-glue mine!!!

 

Does she do it even when you're walking fast? You might be able to clicker it out of her -- "over!" + light nudge with knee + small sidestep, click (or "good girl!") when she's where you want her.

[sobesmom]

When you figure out how to glue your dog - tell me how to un-glue mine!!!

 

Does she do it even when you're walking fast? You might be able to clicker it out of her -- "over!" + light nudge with knee + small sidestep, click (or "good girl!") when she's where you want her.

 

Yep, even fast, and I've got long legs and can walk FAST. We've never done clicker, but I've tried holding my hand down at my leg, fingers spread, so that when she's getting into me she gets an uncomfortable pinky in the shoulder blade, I don't jab her, she jabs herself. I thought that was brillant when I thought of it .....That doesn't seem to work. I've also done leg-shoves with "over" and "good girl" when she maintains a bit of distance for a few steps, but she sucks back in.

 

I'm not concerned with a "show" heel - just getting her OFF me. Of course - saying "go on" gives her full leash to walk ahead, to the side, whatever. But sometimes, like if we meet people on a walk, or if we're in town, I'd like her beside me, but not necessarily walking ON me.

 

I don't want to hijack the thread - I just found it funny that I've got the opposite problem (minor for me) than the OP.

[Guest iconsmum]

 

It's also helpful to remember not to look at the dog except out of the corner of your eye. Don't turn your face toward the dog -- that invites the dog to turn to face you.

 

 

 

oh, you're not kidding it does - I've got a border collie that invented a game called "you so much as turn your nose half an inch in my direction and I'm gonna swing around to meet you coming, isn't this fun" (that's the full name of the game - the short form is "oh lord...not again" )

 

oops, sorry! I hijacked too

Edited June 1, 2011 by iconsmum

[Guest iconsmum]

Was this the seminar/training you were talking about?? ETA: Scroll down to "Rear End Control"

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1763

 

----

Edit: AH HA!!! I found it! It's called "perchwork", and, apparently, it's a common agility precursor to 2 on 2 off. That's funny... I taught 2o2o a different way with Ivy, and she still has really great body awareness with it. I guess the trick is turning 2o2o basics into a heel exercise. That makes things a little clearer =)

 

 

Hi Giselle

No, that's not quite the one I meant, although it looks close. I'll go hunting for it - the man is a trainer in Norway as I remember and he does nothing but train. His clicker work is absolutely silent and the very young dog is thinking so hard that his little brains are falling out his ears lol It really emphasizes that a great clicker trainer makes a really operant dog.

[Guest Giselle]

Batmom, do you have some pictures/video of the stick-work-stuff? I've seen "the stick" mentioned several times in other training articles, but I just know I'm going to mess it up since I've never really been trained in it, much less seen it in action...

 

I mean, it really baffles me! How do these dogs understand to just GLUE their right leg to the human's?

(specifically, start watching at 1:40) It's like the spaniel has been separately taught the behavior of, not just heel, but keeping his front completely parallel to the handler. It's beautiful.

 

Most dogs I work with (including Ivy) look more like this. Interestingly enough, same trainer w/ different dog (beautiful Saluki, at that!). The Saluki's turns aren't quite as tight as the spaniel's and he's more "lateral" than the spaniel, too. Now, I don't know if it's due to the dog's body size/shape or maybe he's less rigorously trained than the spaniel, but that's the picture I usually end up with Ivy. I would love for her to heel more like the spaniel =)

 

Iconsmum, please let me know when you find out the guy's name! I'm very interested. I started perchwork with Ivy today and was very successful in getting her to rotate her rear. We're going to work on getting her to rotate without any cues now

[Batmom]

Giselle, I don't have pictures of "the stick." Just something used a lot by one of my instructors (now retired). She would have people kind of swing the stick gently back and forth to make a fence either to the side (dogs who swung out) or in front (dogs who wanted to forge ahead). If I get a chance I'll scout around and see if I can find a good video.

 

How does Ivy do when you turn *toward* her? If she does that well, you might be able to mix up some turns toward and turns away to get the motion you want.

[MaryJane]

Those videos really helped - she trained them by using her hand to clue the dog to do the formation and she also used that same hand position to feed while training. For the spaniel, she has her hand down on her leg as the clue for the dog to do that and the hand is at a good position to also give treats. I expect that she used something like string cheese in her hand and let the dog slowly eat it while moving around and giving verbal praise. For the saluki, she's keeping her hand at the waist but more in front which is why the dog is not in as close on the formation as the spaniel. With the spaniel, she has her hand right to the side which is keeping the dog right at the side. She could probably get the saluki to do as tight a formation but, her hand at the waist would have to be back more which would be harder for the trainer.

[Batmom]

Good observations!

 

I was going to mention, left hand (assuming dog is on left) needs to be held at your side (hip) and just barely forward of where you want dog's nose to be. You know, the classic position to take up slack in leash (controlled by right hand) if need be.

[Guest Giselle]

Hmm, I would agree with the observation, except that I've seen a lot of people train with their hands at their stomach (like the Saluki) and still achieve a very tight heel:

 

But anyways! I'd ideally (ha..!) like to avoid the hand cue entirely. It would be my DREAM to perform a Schutzhund-style heel - such that the human walks freely, arms swinging at the side, and the dog is keeping track through eye contact alone. I love this dog's pivot (Watch the about U-turn at 0:38):

I know he's using the shoulder dip and footwork as cues, but I've no idea how to start teaching them.

 

So, how do I look like that guy? When I do about U-turns, I usually walk around the dog and give him/her space to turn his/her body. So, the dog stays straight in line while I move in a "U". I would LOVE to be able to turn in a straight line, such that the dog has to maneuver around the "U". I'm still teaching perchwork to Ivy. She SORT OF understands the "pivot-rear-end" concept, but she's not really free-shaping it. I still need to walk into her "space" to get her to rotate. I will try perchwork with the "stick" to see if I can't at least get her to rotate into me =) Again, if any one has more tips on rotating-rear exercises, specifically, let me know!

[Batmom]

Re the hand: Better lower down / at your side for *training*. Once the dog has the position down, doesn't matter as much where you put it (altho you have to be careful if you've used hand down vs. hand up for signals).

 

I've used a vocal cue for U-turns + left foot swinging toward the dog just a smidge. Will admit those are hard, tho. If you choose, you can use hand signals to cue the dog ... but only if you've got your hand down low and to your side.

 

Are you wanting to compete with Ivy, or just looking for stuff to do?

 

 

 

Edited because I started remembering some of the finger singles Zema knew. It is too bad I wasn't / am not a more serious trainer and she wasn't a public personality.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Batmom

[Guest Giselle]

It's always been my dream to do Schutzhund. SIGH. Although Ivy has made amazing progress with her reactivity, I don't trust her around other dogs, even in controlled settings, so I don't think we'll make it past the BH. But I am very serious about getting into Schutzhund sometime in the next few years with a different dog, so I guess Ivy is my "guinea pig" for all the exercises. That way, when I begin the process in earnest, it will be more about training the dog rather than training me =)

 

Update!! We did the perchwork + "stick", and I think we've found a winning combination!!! You're right; I didn't even have to touch her with it. I just sort of slid it past her side and she side-stepped right over into me. After about 5 minutes, I took the stick away and tried seeing if she would side-step into me by herself... and she did!! YAY! This is finally going somewhere!

[Batmom]

Cool beans! And yes, that is exactly what you do with the stick -- it just makes a virtual fence, no need to touch dog with it. :)

 

Happy training!