Crating

[Guest cms121979]

Hi all!

 

As you can see, Im new to the forum. I adopted my retired racer Echo late September. He is a special needs boy, but not physically. He needs help in the training and behavior department. I have been working with him on obedience commands (and a few trick commands thrown in for some good old fashioned fun!) and he has made HUGE strides in this area. He went from giving me confused looks when I would ask for a sit to reliably sitting on command every single time. I can ask him to take a bow just about anywhere and he'll show off just because he can.

 

A little background on Echo might be necessary to help define the problem. He was raced for about 4 months and retired when he didn't do so hot. He was in a foster home for a few weeks (I think about 6 weeks) and then placed with a family. The family consisted of husband, wife, 2 kids, and a shep mix. He got along with everyone just dandy. But he was returned to the rescue about a year after adoption because "he barks nonstop in the middle of the night". He went back to the same foster home where she noticed that he would bark if there was something outside that got his attention. She believed that there might be someone in the neighborhood at his first adopted home that would leave for work really early in the morning. But alas, we have debunked that thought. Echo is a very demanding little man and will wander to my bedside (no, I don't let him sleep in bed with me - not yet at least - he has to earn that privelage) and bark very loudly and urgently. Ive noticed that its usually between 4 and 5:30 am. I initially thought he had to go out, but upon further analysis, I've determined this isn't always the case. Sometimes he randomly wants to wake me up. So Ive been working on that with him.

 

 

That really isn't the biggest issue I have with him. That's cake compared to his other HUGE issue - being crated. I have read the obligatory "adopting a retired greyhound" materials and books and my understanding is that these guys live in crates most of their lives. When I first got him, I didn't crate as the schedule between my roomies and myself worked out so that he wasn't ever alone. At first, it worked out well. Then he started barking incessantly when the roomies were trying to sleep during the day and I was out at work (they were third shifters). About two weeks after I got him, the roomies were fed up with his barking and decided to put him in my bedroom and close the door. Less than an hour later, one roomie heard some scratching and whining only to find that Echo had pulled the wall to wall carpeting up and destroyed the carpet pad at the door frame trying to get out. It was so intense for him that he cut his pads and teeth on the tack strip and it didn't phase him. So into ultra panic mode I went. I purchased an airline crate (in case he tried to escpe, he couldn't hurt himself...or so I thought), herbal anti-anxiety medications, and a small radio. I created a doggie oasis in a spare room where he could be crated and not bothered throughout the day. At first, the reports from the roomies was that the radio helped drown out his barking, yowling, and whining but that it continued for about 2 hours at a time with about 45 minutes respite in between. The living situation has changed somewhat - I'm down to one roomie who is now a day shifter. I don't know if he continues to bark all day, but I do know that he bites, pulls, chews and thrases at the crate while Im gone. He has cracked his upper canines so much that there's barely anything left of them and there is blood around the door of the crate at least twice a week. His crate always starts out in one position but is halfway across the room and spun around by the time I get home. When I first put him in the crate, he shakes so violently that he shakes the crate. He usually calms down within 15 minutes, and then I praise and reward and then leave. He is walked for about 30 minutes in the moring and about 45 minutes in the evening when I get home, not to mention all the yard trips for potty and critter chasing throughout the evening. He has thick blankets in the crate to help make it comfy. I tried the DAP room infuser with no significant change in his behavior. His distaste for the crate is so terrible that he has even found ways to escape and now I have to bungee the door shut. I have left him have free access when I have been gone for short periods of time (20 minutes) only to come home to defication in the house and something else being destroyed. So not crating him is not an option.

 

So I guess my need for advice is really just in helping him deal with being crated. He doesn't go lay in his crate whenever Im home. He doesn't choose to be in that room when he doesn't need to be. Ive crated him for short periods of time while I am home (30 minutes) and he is absolutely fine. No whining, barking, crate is still in place, no chewing. Its just when Im not there that he goes into a frenzy. I have even sprayed every surface that he has chewed on in the crate with bitter apple and he STILL chews till he bleeds (apparenly he likes bitter stuff!. HELP! Everything else is going so well. What does my boy need? What can I do to help him feel at home in the crate? Any and all advice would be welcome - Ive tried everything my trainer and I could come up with and there doesn't seem to be any significant improvement.

[Guest IrskasMom]

First of all WELCOME to GT . Then some like it and some don't , Crate's that is . Mine never liked it and from here on out never went in the Crate.To close Doors is also a No no.Panic.One on One Training would help. Some People who have delt with SA will comment. I have ne Experience wth that and I think that's the Problem A tired Hound will sleep at Night. Who and how many walks and how long is he walked??? That maybe is also to be considerate.Good Luck with your Boy Echo.

Edited December 23, 2009 by IrskasMom

[Guest scfilby]

If he is hurting himself in the crate, the crate needs to go until you get a handle on it. Have you tried leaving him loose? Close doors to rooms you don;t want him in. Get babygates for areas you don't want him in. If this is SA, you may need to dog proof the areas he is in to prevent destructive chewing.

 

It sounds like he needs some alone training, which is you leaving for longer and longer periods with threats and positive reinforcements when you return.. Try a frozen Kong treat to keep him busy..

[Batmom]

What scifilby said:

 

- If he's hurting himself in the crate, don't put him in it. They can die trying to get out.

 

- Try baby gates. If you need to keep him in your room due to roommates, get a tall one so he doesn't jump. Many dogs don't like being where they can't see out (such as in a single room with the door shut) but are fine when they can.

 

- Do a search on "alone training" in this forum for many good suggestions on how to get him to relax when you are gone. Basics are plenty of exercise (nice long walk or play session before you leave), practicing leaving (e.g., leaving for 1 minute every 10 minutes 6 times in a row, gradually increasing time you are gone as dog becomes comfortable with very short times), and distractions (e.g., a Kong stuffed with peanutbutter or other safe activity toy to keep him busy when you're gone).

 

Good luck!

[Guest LindsaySF]

Agreed with Batmom. Alone training pronto. Ditch the crate for now, he has severe anxiety about it and will eventually hurt (or kill ) himself. Also use baby gates instead of shutting the door, most Greys can't handle being shut in a room but they tolerate baby gates.

 

Regarding the crate, retired racers are used to wire crates and airline crates can make them feel closed-in. What size is the crate you have?

 

Have you talked to your adoption group about this? What was their advice?

 

About the barking, how much exercise is he getting? He might be bored and lonely, sometimes more exercise takes the edge off.

[Jackandgrey]

Re the being in a crate all their lives. They are used to a crate in a kennel with a lot of other dogs around them and people coming and going all day. This in no way equates to being in a crate all by themselves. Some dogs will love their crate or tolerate it. Others such as yours absolutly will not. As has been said I would stop using the crate ASAP. You could try an Xpen but really the baby gate is a much better option. And without a doubt, he needs alone training for his separation anxiety. If he is chewing things out of his crate use a muzzle while you are teaching him to be alone.

[Guest NeverSayNever]

1. If your crate is tucked away in a room, you probably need to move it to a larger living space area where he has the biggest view.

2. I would feed all of his meals in stuffed Kongs. So if he eats 3 cups of kibble a day, that's about 12 medium sized Kongs. Each day, I would mix both meals with canned food, cottage cheese, yogurt, canned pumpkin, and/or raw egg so its all nice and sticky. Stuff all of it into your 12 Kongs and freeze them. So instead of feeding him from a bowl, you are feeding him throughout the day via the Kongs in the crate. The Kongs give him something to do in the crate, makes the crate fun, and burns energy.

3. If you are off over the holidays, I would put him in the crate with 2 Kongs for an hour. Let him finish and let him out when he is quiet. Let another hour pass, put him in crate with 2 Kongs for an hour, let him out only when he is relaxed and quiet. But run him through the crate, Kong, and relax routine as many times as you can on your days off.

4. Have you tried a squirt bottle for the barking. You can do sort of the opposite of clicker training.... sometimes the dog will learn to bark long enough for you to just grab the bottle and then they are quiet. I like to mark the barking with "ENOUGH" and squirt them regardless of whether the barking has stopped or not. So where as I mark a good behavior with a clicker and then treat.... with barking, I am marking it with an "enough" and the squirting as a negative consequence. This gives you the ability to respond from another room and then follow through with the squirt.

5. I would really not give him any affection until he has resolved this issue. Train him, exercise him, play with him.... but don't cuddle with him right now. And in the future, definitely make sure you are doing things on your terms and never responding to his demanding behavior.

6. If he turns out to be really really unhappy in the crate, you might consider baby gates (don't close the door on him). If he's housetrained and his only issue is the barking, you could leave him loose and still leave him busy with the Kongs.... just make sure roomies aren't getting frustrated with his barking and giving him a Kong to shut him up.

7. Teach him that he does not get greeted, walked, fed, or Konged unless he is quiet and lying down. Get him in the habit of asking for these things with polite downs instead of the barking. Sometimes working on something like this takes forever.... the first time takes you 20 minutes to accomplish your mission, but next time its only 15... and then 8 minutes, and the 1 minute. So follow through and be consistant.

 

I feel like I'm jumping around here, but hopefully some of that helps.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

From your description, it doesnt sound like you have done any "alone training". I would read up and work very hard on said alone training. I would also feed your hound ONLY in the crate, nowhere else. No treats outside the crate, nada. Muzzle in the crate could help also. Another thing to try with the barking early in the morning is to take a metal can (old coffee tin) and put some nuts and bolts in it. When your boy starts barking, shake the can. This is called noise aversion. The moving the crate to an open spot is good suggestion as well. If he is breaking teeth, and you see blood, you really need to start alone training quickly as you dont want further injury (I know, that is why you are here asking questions, please dont take this as being judgemental). If all else fails, and ONLY after all else fails, I would consider medication. We had a foster that had to be moved out of my home because he wasnt cat safe, as soon as he moved into another foster home, he exibited the same issues you speak of. He absolutely destroyed a metal crate, bent all the bars, broke a few. It took nearly 6 months of alone training, as well as feeding in the crate, along with obedience classes, and a HUGE increase in exercise. One thing to note, the other fosters did have another greyhound in the home.

[Guest cms121979]

Wow! Lots of good responses and fast. Let me break it down to make it easier to understand:

 

A little background on myself to again help define the situation - I have a thirteen years experience in animal care and training. Ive worked with at least 10,000 dogs (worked at an animal shelter for over three years, then as a vet tech, then as a groomer) and various other domestic and exotic mammals. I interpret his behavior as nervous/anxious behavior, and I truly believe it is this, but there is a slim chance Im wrong. I really do understand how to teach using operant conditioning and clicker training - If you can clicker train a nearly 600 lb bear, you can master a dog - or so I thought. It just seems like not only is Echo hard headed, but he's also a little untrusting and uneasy. Given his background, I don't blame him for being so wound tight, but I feel that he came into my life so that I can help him become the self confident, calm, easy going dog 100% of the time that I see 80% of the time now.

 

1) I have talked to the woman who placed him with me. She suggested to work with a trainer (I had already contacted one LONG before I tried to get answers from the rescue group) and if that fails, to medicate with clomicalm. Im not really a huge fan on anti anxiety meds as they can negatively affect the liver and kidneys. I am open to herbal remedies, but the four that I have tried haven't really taken the edge off.

 

2) I have done alone training - in fact, I continue to work on it. Now tonight, I had to run out quickly for about 15 minutes. I left him loose in the house. He did well, and I rewarded for that. But I do small amounts of alone training daily with him. Ive been able to get him up to about 30 minutes crated alone in the house before I can hear him barking. Ive also worked on alone training without him being crated, and ironically, 8 minutes is the longest he's gone without pacing and barking. No idea why being crated is worse than being uncrated?!

 

3) I would love to ditch the crate, but because I am renting this house, I would LOVE to not have to replace the entire wall to wall carpeting before I leave. Plus, after cleaning up after animals all day, I really would love to not have to clean more piles of feces up when I walk in the door. He won't urinate or deficate in the crate while he's crated, but I by golly if he doesn't let the flood gates swing wide open if he's not crated.

 

4) I know exercise is a CRUCIAL element of a dog's life. I walk him about 1.5 hours on days I work. On days I don't work, I try to make a special effort to get about 3 hours of walking in with him. Because its freezing cold outside right now, Ive been doing short trips (limiting to no more than 45 minutes) but increase their frequency. The roomie has not been involved in his walking routine. He does have a thick polar fleece coat, but I still don't trust that his little feet aren't freezing. I'd love to add indoor play sessions to the regiment, but he's not much of a player. He has refused EVERY toy Ive gotten for him and shows no interest in the bunny! I do however take him about once a month to a dog play session at a local petstore. There he gets to mingle with all sorts of dogs. He does well and he really enjoys the socialization. But again, due to schedule constraints, once a month is about the most I get chance to do that with him.

 

5) I was feeding in the crate (in a bowl) but when he refused to eat for three straight days because the bowl was in the crate, I decided that not starving him was a bit more important than forcing a positive assocaition with the crate. On the third day, I pulled the bowl out of the crate and he nearly inhaled his food.

 

On the door issue, I know its not a good idea to close a panicked dog into a room alone. That was NOT my idea and I promptly scolded the roomies for doing that! I was very lucky he didn't jump out of the closed window to try to escape - I have seen this before. Since then, he's not EVER been closed into a room alone. I can't even believe they did that to him. But I have also closed doors to rooms I don't want him to have access to when he has been left home alone uncrated, and he attempted the same thing - pulling the wall to wall carpet up. If he ever gets to the point where he doesn't need to be crated, I will keep in mind the baby gates. Knowing how sight dependent these guys are, I should have thought of that!

 

On this same note, I am going to move his crate into the main living area the next time he has to be crated (Saturday - no holiday for zookeepers!). Again, being sight dependent, maybe part of the problem is that it's so secluded from the main living area that he feels like he's in solitary confinement. DEFINITELY not the signal I want to send to him. I want him to be comfy in the crate. BTW, the crate is the largest airline type plastic crate available. I got him the plastic crate because I have seen dogs severely injure themselves and have heard about dogs killing themselves by impaling themselves on metal from a folding metal crate. Until I know he won't try to kill himself, I am extremely hesitant to get a metal crate.

 

I will start feeding him exclusively with kongs and exclusively in the crate. He's been getting a kong with a frozen treat in it when he's in the crate - so far his favorites are PB and cooked ground meat. He's eaten everything out of that one kong, so maybe adding more, and adding his meals to them will help give him more to do!

 

I have used the squirt bottle - that was one thing the rescue coordinator told me to give a try. I figured if it worked for my cats, it would work for him. But I have been walking to the crate and squirting him, figuring that he needed the squirt as the mark for his bad behavior. I will try working with him again using quiet (the word Ive been using as his cue to calm down) as the bridge and the squirt as the reinforcement. Good suggestion!

 

Echo can be a demanding little man, but Ive been teaching him that by acting out he doesn't get what he wants - my attention. But I have been giving him my attenion and praise when he is calmly relaxing. Since he's becoming a pro at the down stays (even stayed in a down while repairmen were here today for about 20 minutes - I was so proud of him!), I will incorporate that into his daily routine. Calm down, then attention!

 

We will be enrolled in basic obedience with a dog training club come spring (they don't have anything until then since they work outdoors). My goal for him is to show in obedience and maybe rally. We will achieve this no matter how difficult it may be! I know he can learn, and I really think the added mental and physical stimulation, coupled with the socialization, will be a great help for him!

 

It might be furstrating, but I will not give up on him like so many other people have before. He's here to stay, regardless of how long it takes to work him through his issues!

Thank you all for your response and lending your expertise in this area! I really appreciate it! And thanks for the welcome! I should have found this place sooner!

 

Happy Holidays

[Guest IrskasMom]

I am so delighted , when you say : " he is here to stay!" It will take time and patience and you will not be dissapointed.Just one more thing. My Dog loves Routine . When you have established a for you and him workable Routine stick with it. And there is one other Thing , I forgot to mention PICTURES from this handsome Boy.

[Batmom]

Being crated is worse than being uncrated because he has crate anxiety in addition to some separation anxiety. I would NOT squirt him while he's in the crate -- that'll make matters worse, not better.

 

You might consider an ex-pen rather than a crate, if you need to confine him to a safe area.

 

Note re alone training: If you can hear him barking, he can hear that you're there. Gotta really leave. Get in your car and drive a block or two away so he can't hear you anymore. You can use a webcam or audio recorder if you want to check on what/how he's doing when you're gone.

 

P.S. Not sure if this is addressed above or not but: First let me say that if this dog fusses and tries to break out of the crate, I really would recommend not crating him. The airline crates are flexible, and dogs have strangled themselves between the plastic sides and the crate door. Second, whatever you do and wherever you put the dog when you leave, you need to do some of that while you are there as well. Say you're going to put dog in bedroom behind baby gate, with Kong. Spend some of your training time putting dog in bedroom behind baby gate, with Kong ... and go in there with him, plop yourself down, and read a magazine for 15 minutes; then let him (and yourself ) out. You want your "leaving" routine to be a signal for him to chill out, enjoy his Kong, then have a nap ... not a signal that "oh, spit, she's gonna leave and I'm gonna be lonely and upset."

 

[Guest LindsaySF]

Being crated is worse than being uncrated because he has crate anxiety in addition to some separation anxiety. I would NOT squirt him while he's in the crate -- that'll make matters worse, not better.

You might consider an ex-pen rather than a crate, if you need to confine him to a safe area.

 

Note re alone training: If you can hear him barking, he can hear that you're there. Gotta really leave. Get in your car and drive a block or two away so he can't hear you anymore. You can use a webcam or audio recorder if you want to check on what/how he's doing when you're gone.

 

P.S. Not sure if this is addressed above or not but: First let me say that if this dog fusses and tries to break out of the crate, I really would recommend not crating him. The airline crates are flexible, and dogs have strangled themselves between the plastic sides and the crate door. Second, whatever you do and wherever you put the dog when you leave, you need to do some of that while you are there as well. Say you're going to put dog in bedroom behind baby gate, with Kong. Spend some of your training time putting dog in bedroom behind baby gate, with Kong ... and go in there with him, plop yourself down, and read a magazine for 15 minutes; then let him (and yourself ) out. You want your "leaving" routine to be a signal for him to chill out, enjoy his Kong, then have a nap ... not a signal that "oh, spit, she's gonna leave and I'm gonna be lonely and upset."

 

Agreed with the above post. Good luck.