Vern Seizured

[Guest Geesh]

Emily, Thank you for your continued support and all the reassurance you give me in this trying time.. Even if the scan showed a tumor- Vern probably woundnt survive the anesthesia for the scan let alone for any surgery.

 

I found out the hard way with the loss of our little Poodle/Maltese MICKEY 2 months ago... no matter how much you love and how much you spend... you just cant change some things..

Edited February 24, 2009 by Geesh

[Guest Geesh]

Vern isnt looking so good.. He is acting strange. More wobbly and has a glassy look in his eyes.. I just gave hima tbl spoon of Hagen Das ( thought it may help a drop in blood sugar)... new at this... BUT the vet told us that he may have more sezures...so I am worried... I guess i am worried about the expected... if that makes any sence... I know its comming- just looking & waiting for it- praying it never comes...

 

Our little YorkiePoo Molly, is sitting by Vern giving him an occasional kiss... That concerns me , DOGS KNOW !!!

 

More later....

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Close the curtains, turn down noise and just keep things quiet. Hard to tell if this is from Pheno or if this is a seizure coming on. Just so you know, head twitchies come from Pheno. Have that ice pack on the ready

 

A common sign of upcoming seizure is dog will be more clingy. For Henry, he first shivers, then cries, and then pants really hard.

 

 

ETA: Personally I would not give extra Pheno at this time, as we are not sure if this is from side effects of Pheno, or is it a seizure aura coming on. Anxiety/nervousness is another side effect of Pheno, that usually goes away within a couple weeks.

Edited February 24, 2009 by EmilyAnne

[Guest Geesh]

Taken Vern out a few times today & I am pretty sure he is high as a kite... If he isnt stumbling, ready to fall, leaning on me, he is asleep... no crying , no shaking, no panting....

 

Vern never has been as graceful as Greta... He has always been clumsey & heavy footed, scares easily... spoke with the Dr & he wants me to STOP the Pheno tonite & resume in the am at 50mg instead of 100mg. I will stay with him agin tonite with the ice pack ready... We both think that 100mg twice a day may be too much for him.. Cutting his doseage to 50% sounds good from a medicne standpoint... but from a sezure standpoint... I am scared..

 

 

Close the curtains, turn down noise and just keep things quiet. Hard to tell if this is from Pheno or if this is a seizure coming on. Just so you know, head twitchies come from Pheno. Have that ice pack on the ready

 

A common sign of upcoming seizure is dog will be more clingy. For Henry, he first shivers, then cries, and then pants really hard.

 

 

ETA: Personally I would not give extra Pheno at this time, as we are not sure if this is from side effects of Pheno, or is it a seizure aura coming on. Anxiety/nervousness is another side effect of Pheno, that usually goes away within a couple weeks.

 

[greypuppyluv]

I know with the sodium bromide, my vet said it can take some time for it to leave their system. We took Phaelin off of the sodium bromide for 4 days and the vet said he would still have enough in his system to help protect him. We started him back up on it at a lower dosage and that worked well for Phaelin.

 

While we shouldn't count on this, seizuring dogs being attacked usually occur when there are at least two other dogs. Because then there is more of that pack mentality among the dogs.

I have to sort of disagree with this. Yes, if one dog goes after a dog seizing, others may join in, but really, it's going to depend on each dog's personality moreso than just the fact that there's more than one other dog in the house. Jenny's (sweetgsmom) dog, Misha, goes after Aidan when Aidan is seizing, but it wouldn't matter to Misha if Jenny's other dog, Campbell, was there or not.....she's just the type of dog that can't handle being around a seizing dog without wanting to go after it. Campbell, OTOH, has never shown any inclination of going after Aidan when she's seizing. I've known others who have had just one other dog besides the seizing dog and that dog wanted to go after the dog when it was seizing.

[Guest Geesh]

IS sodium bromide used in place of Phenobartol? Is that safer than Pheno ? Has Phaelin always been on sodium bromide ? Is he doing good with side effects ? Thanks, Bill

 

 

I know with the sodium bromide, my vet said it can take some time for it to leave their system. We took Phaelin off of the sodium bromide for 4 days and the vet said he would still have enough in his system to help protect him. We started him back up on it at a lower dosage and that worked well for Phaelin.

 

While we shouldn't count on this, seizuring dogs being attacked usually occur when there are at least two other dogs. Because then there is more of that pack mentality among the dogs.

I have to sort of disagree with this. Yes, if one dog goes after a dog seizing, others may join in, but really, it's going to depend on each dog's personality moreso than just the fact that there's more than one other dog in the house. Jenny's (sweetgsmom) dog, Misha, goes after Aidan when Aidan is seizing, but it wouldn't matter to Misha if Jenny's other dog, Campbell, was there or not.....she's just the type of dog that can't handle being around a seizing dog without wanting to go after it. Campbell, OTOH, has never shown any inclination of going after Aidan when she's seizing. I've known others who have had just one other dog besides the seizing dog and that dog wanted to go after the dog when it was seizing.

 

[greypuppyluv]

IS sodium bromide used in place of Phenobartol? Is that safer than Pheno ? Has Phaelin always been on sodium bromide ? Is he doing good with side effects ? Thanks, Bill

Phaelin just started having seizures last November and they occured every two weeks. After the 4th seizure, we started the sodium bromide, mainly because I could give it to him just once a day. My work schedule is always crazy January through April, so I needed something that didn't require such a strict schedule. Also, my vet said he's heard of quite a few other vets who have started going to the sodium bromide instead of the potassium bromide (although most of the people I read about use the potassium bromide). I read an article on canine-epilepsy.com that said the sodium bromide is sometimes easier on a dog's stomach than the potassium bromide. The article is a good read and might help answer your questions more than I could, especially about the differences between pheno and the bromides.

 

Phaelin started out on 6mg per day of the sodium bromide, but we've had to reduce it down to 1mg per day. On the 6mg, he was really wobbly when he would walk around and he would pace in the morning before I would feed him and give him his sodium bromide. He would sleep deeper and longer than before he was on the meds, and he just wasn't the same dog as I had before. He was VERY clingy. Since we've reduced the dosage, he's much better and is close to being back to the way he was before. He's been seizure free since December 14th.

 

I really found the canine-epilepsy.com helpful, although there are quite a few articles that I haven't read yet (I've only scratched the surface). You may want to consider taking a little time (with Vern by your side ) and check out some of the articles.....I think you'll find them very informative.

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Sodium Bromide takes too long to kick for dogs who were in cluster. So that is why your Vern and my Henry are on Pheno.

 

Sodium Bromide takes longer to build up in the body than Pheno. It is safer to miss a dose of Sodium Bromide than it is Pheno. However, Vern had only been on Pheno a few days, so that is likely why the vet felt it was safe for Vern to miss a dose, plus his previous doses were too high it sounds. I once accidentally forgot to give Henry his dose after he had been on it for 20 days, you can read about it here. Last week me and my husband accidentally both gave Henry his Pheno. Oops! Because ha had too much Pheno that morning, I only gave Henry half his usual bedtime dose of Pheno (per vet's instructions) and he did fine.

 

To get a feel for Henry's dose, he is 75 lbs, and takes 60mg twice a day. Weight alone though can't determine how much Pheno is the right dose for Vern, so there will be a little trial and error. Henry started at a heavier dose to get a head start on getting it built up in his body, so it's not altogether a bad thing that Vern got a high dose in the beginning.

 

ETA: What I like about Pheno, is if Henry has been through something very stressful that could trigger a Grand-Mal, I can give extra Pheno. Such as when he lost a dewclaw a few weeks ago and was shivering in pain. I can also give extra Pheno after a Grand-Mal to prevent cluster. (per vet's instructions)

Edited February 25, 2009 by EmilyAnne

[Guest EmilyAnne]

I know with the sodium bromide, my vet said it can take some time for it to leave their system. We took Phaelin off of the sodium bromide for 4 days and the vet said he would still have enough in his system to help protect him. We started him back up on it at a lower dosage and that worked well for Phaelin.

 

While we shouldn't count on this, seizuring dogs being attacked usually occur when there are at least two other dogs. Because then there is more of that pack mentality among the dogs.

I have to sort of disagree with this. Yes, if one dog goes after a dog seizing, others may join in, but really, it's going to depend on each dog's personality moreso than just the fact that there's more than one other dog in the house. Jenny's (sweetgsmom) dog, Misha, goes after Aidan when Aidan is seizing, but it wouldn't matter to Misha if Jenny's other dog, Campbell, was there or not.....she's just the type of dog that can't handle being around a seizing dog without wanting to go after it. Campbell, OTOH, has never shown any inclination of going after Aidan when she's seizing. I've known others who have had just one other dog besides the seizing dog and that dog wanted to go after the dog when it was seizing.

I didn't say single dogs are never capable of attacking, just that through what I have heard here on GT and through the epil-k9 list, it seems to happen more often where there is 3 or more dogs. Sort of like the double trouble concept. I think it depends on both the dog's personality AND the number of dogs can play a factor.

 

Edit to add from http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/living.html : - "Protection or separation may need to be considered in multiple dog households. A seizing dog can trigger the 'pack' instinct in which an injured animal on the ground is attacked. Monitor your dogs until you know their reactions to the seizing dog."

Edited February 25, 2009 by EmilyAnne

[Guest Geesh]

Sounds like Henry is doing fine now... Poor boy..How old is he ? Have you had him long ? Sounds like you have had several hounds..Vern is our first REAL Greyhound... We got Greta first, but she came from a coyote hunting ranch -so she does not count..LOL .Vern is a big boy at 90pounds. As of this am, we started 50mgs of Pheno ( twice per day). The 1oos relly whiped him out. he appears near normal- I mean he is walking much better right now... but still sleeps a lot. HE REALLY WANTS TO LAY IN THE SUN... He loves sunbathing..iit niice and warm BUT, Is bright sunlight bad now ? I just dont know yet wht will trigger Verns seziures... Our kids have a bacement rock band.. I am afraid that tthe noise will trigger... Greta plays with the little dog like wild animls... lots of running & barking. Vern just watches most of the time,but eventually joins in when the little one runs.. VERN REMEMBERS THAT RUNNING THING...LOL.

 

 

 

 

Sodium Bromide takes too long to kick for dogs who were in cluster. So that is why your Vern and my Henry are on Pheno.

 

Sodium Bromide takes longer to build up in the body than Pheno. It is safer to miss a dose of Sodium Bromide than it is Pheno. However, Vern had only been on Pheno a few days, so that is likely why the vet felt it was safe for Vern to miss a dose, plus his previous doses were too high it sounds. I once accidentally forgot to give Henry his dose after he had been on it for 20 days, you can read about it here. Last week me and my husband accidentally both gave Henry his Pheno. Oops! Because ha had too much Pheno that morning, I only gave Henry half his usual bedtime dose of Pheno (per vet's instructions) and he did fine.

 

To get a feel for Henry's dose, he is 75 lbs, and takes 60mg twice a day. Weight alone though can't determine how much Pheno is the right dose for Vern, so there will be a little trial and error. Henry started at a heavier dose to get a head start on getting it built up in his body, so it's not altogether a bad thing that Vern got a high dose in the beginning.

 

ETA: What I like about Pheno, is if Henry has been through something very stressful that could trigger a Grand-Mal, I can give extra Pheno. Such as when he lost a dewclaw a few weeks ago and was shivering in pain. I can also give extra Pheno after a Grand-Mal to prevent cluster. (per vet's instructions)

 

[Guest EmilyAnne]

I play my music pretty loud and it doesn't bother Henry. I don't do it if he is having a bad day though. Henry actually likes music. He likes easier going tunes though.

 

Bright sunlight is absolutely just fine. You will still have your normal precautions of not letting him get sunburnt though, like any othe grey.

 

Henry is actually my very first hound I have ever had. He is my second epi dog though. Though my last epi dog's epilepsy was nowhere as severe as Henry's. Henry joined our family Oct.27th 2007. He has been with us one year 3 months. We don't know how long he has had his epilepsy, though we know he has had it at least as long as when he was first rescued from death row at an animal shelter in Ohio, which was in late summer of 2005, over 3 years ago.

[Guest Geesh]

Ok, just wondered how you became so well versed in This subject.. I took Vern out for a walk up the street & back.. Vern really enjoys pissing on everything he walks by.. Men ! LOL...Talked with a neighbor on our walk.. His LAST 3 dogs have had sezuires.. NEVER medicated any of them.. Just kept them calm.. ( not for me to say) They have a mini Greyhound now & she had a sezuire 3 years ago.. none since.. He talked like itwas no big deal.. Wondering why "I" am so devistated... IS it normal, maybe I am over reacting.. I suppose if I had not witnessed the Grand Mal and softly held Vern until it passed... I wouldnt be so freaked out over it... My dogs are "MY" kids since i never had any real ones of my own... I think Greys are better anyway !

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Ok, just wondered how you became so well versed in This subject.. I took Vern out for a walk up the street & back.. Vern really enjoys pissing on everything he walks by.. Men ! LOL...Talked with a neighbor on our walk.. His LAST 3 dogs have had sezuires.. NEVER medicated any of them.. Just kept them calm.. ( not for me to say) They have a mini Greyhound now & she had a sezuire 3 years ago.. none since.. He talked like itwas no big deal.. Wondering why "I" am so devistated... IS it normal, maybe I am over reacting.. I suppose if I had not witnessed the Grand Mal and softly held Vern until it passed... I wouldnt be so freaked out over it... My dogs are "MY" kids since i never had any real ones of my own... I think Greys are better anyway !

Just cause your neighbor had three dogs that had epilepsy doesnt mean he can relate truly to our experiences. I tried like the dickens to keep Henry off meds. Many GT'ers can attest that as I shared my experiences with them. In my pursuit to try to keep Henry off the drugs, that is when I became so well versed. I drove myself a bit batty there for awhile.

 

Your neighbor CANNOT say he knows what it is like to go what you and me have gone through. The simple fact that he never medicated and I guessing seizures are not what killed them, means his exprience was different than ours. Henry is my second epi-dog. My last one never needed meds either. But Henry, he is a whole different story. He was going to die without meds. You can read a bit about that here~ http://healthyhoundz.blogspot.com/2008/10/...re-monster.html I was freaked out too when Henry had his cluster. Over time I have relaxed a bit. Really the only difference between Henry and any other dog is he needs his meds twice a day, and has to avoid a few food/medication triggers. I still walk him three miles every day, he still enjoys sprints. I still play my music loud, etc., etc. I'm a bit more observant of him is all.

[Guest Geesh]

Vern is doing well !

 

Edited February 28, 2009 by Geesh

[Guest Geesh]

Vern Update: He is doing very well.. It snowed a coupe of days ago.. He loves the snow. He has been running & playing in the snow with our other two dogs. He is still on 50mg of Pheno 2x a day. I hope it gives him some protection from severe seziures...

 

I am still not 100% convinced that the anestesia from the teeth cleaning (3 days before the sezuire) did not cause the sezuire. Vern had a hard time comming out of the anesthsia..Suspeciously, was when we left a message for our "old" vet, telling him of Verns seziure, he never EVER called us back. At the time, we wanted to bring him in to be seen... We left messages on hs personal and business phones..NEVER t this day, has he called us back..

Edited March 3, 2009 by Geesh

[Guest Winterwish]

I'm so glad to see Vern is doing well! That's great!

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Before anesthesia, vets usually administer acepromazine. This had been found to be bad to use in epi-dogs on Phenobabital. However, a previous epi-dog of mine who was not on any seizure meds at all also responded poorly to acepromazine and would have seizures after surgery. They stopped using acepromazine ad used something else instead, and he stopped having seizures after surgery. He seemed to be plauged with bad luck and always needed at least one surgery a year for something or another. Poor dog!

[KF_in_Georgia]

My Sam is not an epi dog, but ketamine triggers seizures in him (the technical term, I think, is "emergence phenomena"). We discovered this when Sam had a dental (at age 5), and the vet's phone call to me started, "Sam's okay now, but..."

 

I had a tag engraved with "WARNING: NO KETAMINE" and Sam wears this on his collar with his other tags. (I'm a chronic worrier. What if I'm in a car accident with the dogs in the car? And Sam winds up at a vet? And needs anesthesia? And I'm not handy to warn the vet? Hence, the tag.)

 

Sam has safely had two dentals since that one. His vet is using something other than ketamine--although I'm not sure what it is. I've had to take Sam to the emergency room twice for injury or illness (a UTI), and the first words out of my mouth are "he's allergic to ketamine."

[Guest Geesh]

Curious, how long between anestesia & seziures ??? Vern was 3-4 days....

 

 

Before anesthesia, vets usually administer acepromazine. This had been found to be bad to use in epi-dogs on Phenobabital. However, a previous epi-dog of mine who was not on any seizure meds at all also responded poorly to acepromazine and would have seizures after surgery. They stopped using acepromazine ad used something else instead, and he stopped having seizures after surgery. He seemed to be plauged with bad luck and always needed at least one surgery a year for something or another. Poor dog!

 

 

Curious, how long between anestesia & seziures ??? Vern was 3-4 days....

 

My Sam is not an epi dog, but ketamine triggers seizures in him (the technical term, I think, is "emergence phenomena"). We discovered this when Sam had a dental (at age 5), and the vet's phone call to me started, "Sam's okay now, but..."

 

I had a tag engraved with "WARNING: NO KETAMINE" and Sam wears this on his collar with his other tags. (I'm a chronic worrier. What if I'm in a car accident with the dogs in the car? And Sam winds up at a vet? And needs anesthesia? And I'm not handy to warn the vet? Hence, the tag.)

 

Sam has safely had two dentals since that one. His vet is using something other than ketamine--although I'm not sure what it is. I've had to take Sam to the emergency room twice for injury or illness (a UTI), and the first words out of my mouth are "he's allergic to ketamine."

[KF_in_Georgia]

Curious, how long between anestesia & seziures ??? Vern was 3-4 days....

 

Sam had seizures coming out of the anesthesia from the dental. He had no subsequent seizures once the ketamine fully wore off that same day.

 

But you might want to find out if Vern's old vet used ketamine (surely your current vet should be able to request Vern's records from the old practice--or you are entitled to get the records yourself since you paid for all that medical work); and you might talk to your own vet about whether Vern ever should have ketamine with any future anesthesia, given that ketamine can trigger "emergence phenomena".

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Alfalfa would be at the vet's for the first several hours upon waking up from anesthesia, and since his seizures were not the earth shattering kind, it's entirely possible he *might* have been having seizures within those first few hours after seizure and noone noticed. As for observed seizures, he usually had one within 1-2 days of the acepromazine.

 

As far as timing between triggers and Grand-Mals, Henry has a Grand-Mal usually 24 hours after a trigger. He hasn't been under anesthesia in a very long time. Last time he was under anesthesia as far as I know was when he was neutered 3 years ago. I don't have seizure record from back then, but I do know they figured out he had epilepsy pretty quick, and was neutered almost immediately after he was rescued from an animal shelter.

[Guest Geesh]

Did Henry get Ketamine ??? If that was Verns trigger- I want t get a note in his medica records... Thanks. Bill

 

Alfalfa would be at the vet's for the first several hours upon waking up from anesthesia, and since his seizures were not the earth shattering kind, it's entirely possible he *might* have been having seizures within those first few hours after seizure and noone noticed. As for observed seizures, he usually had one within 1-2 days of the acepromazine.

 

As far as timing between triggers and Grand-Mals, Henry has a Grand-Mal usually 24 hours after a trigger. He hasn't been under anesthesia in a very long time. Last time he was under anesthesia as far as I know was when he was neutered 3 years ago. I don't have seizure record from back then, but I do know they figured out he had epilepsy pretty quick, and was neutered almost immediately after he was rescued from an animal shelter.

 

[Guest Geesh]

Well its been couple of more weeks & Vern is still doing fine. I feel terrible foor freaking out when Vern had his seziure when there are so many more Greys with worse conditions.. That said, Vern & I still pray & give thanks together for al the good days we have together.

 

 

Glad to see he had a good night. You'll find yourself just waiting for the next one, it's human nature because we love our pups so much. Try and relax, I know it will be hard but the more relaxed you are the more relaxed he will be. You can keep some all natural ice cream on hand in case he seizes again. When a hound seizes his blood sugar drops drastically so offering some ice cream will bring his blood sugar back to normal plus it will help to cool him off as his temperature will rise dramatically also, thus the pacing and panting afterwards. Offer as much water as he wishes. You will find he will also sleep a lot after having a seizure and this is normal too.

 

I pray he has no more but if he does, hopefully the medication will help. Keep working with your vet to find the right dose and combination of medications to help your boy.

 

[CaliforniaGreys]

Well its been couple of more weeks & Vern is still doing fine. I feel terrible foor freaking out when Vern had his seziure when there are so many more Greys with worse conditions.. That said, Vern & I still pray & give thanks together for al the good days we have together.

 

 

Glad to see he had a good night. You'll find yourself just waiting for the next one, it's human nature because we love our pups so much. Try and relax, I know it will be hard but the more relaxed you are the more relaxed he will be. You can keep some all natural ice cream on hand in case he seizes again. When a hound seizes his blood sugar drops drastically so offering some ice cream will bring his blood sugar back to normal plus it will help to cool him off as his temperature will rise dramatically also, thus the pacing and panting afterwards. Offer as much water as he wishes. You will find he will also sleep a lot after having a seizure and this is normal too.

 

I pray he has no more but if he does, hopefully the medication will help. Keep working with your vet to find the right dose and combination of medications to help your boy.

 

This is good news that he's doing well. We keep him in our prayers. And don't feel terrible!! We love them and you bet we freak out

[Guest RooCroo]

Don't feel foolish! Seizures are scary! Hoovie has been an epi dog for four years, and they STILL freak me out.

 

Good boy, Vern! Hope the meds continue to keep things in check.