Back To The Limping Again...

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

As some of you may remember I've had a few posts about my senior grey and his ongoing battle with pretty severe arthritis. Multiple track injuries (plus having the bone set wrong on the track and having to be broke and reset on one leg) have done a number on this pooch (blind in one eye from scarring too); winter hasn't been helping.

 

My last optimistic update was with the introduction of Cosequin to the mix. While that has helped a great deal, the first snow of the year has brought back the jolting gait and limp in the hind end. He's on half a pill of Deramaxx every other day due to concerns for his liver and kidneys, but it's just not enough for the winter.

 

My question this time around: many of you have given me names of different medications for hounds, but have any of you tried Tramadol? I work in an animal research facility and, while discussing my boy during lunch, one of the vets offered this synthetic opiate as an option. She said it's much easier on the kidneys and very effective (I think she uses it on her horses). I'm planning on discussing this with my vet next week, but...my vet has a track record of trying to save me money and please me--two very good traits until you really need guidance! He tends to shrug and ask me what I'd like to do most of the time, often recommending the lowest dose/medication possible. I'd love to walk in with information to give him (especially since Brad's been his private tutor on all things greyhound for the three years we've lived here) and was wondering if anyone had experience with their hounds and synthetic opiates?

 

Thanks--it's been rather rough for me, as I knew when I got him he'd have pretty severe arthritis later but managed to keep it at bay for years longer than vets speculated. Was hoping he'd maybe prove them all wrong with exercise and dietary supplements...he used to be the fastest thing on four legs, now when I let him run it's stiff and halting.

 

As a sidenote: has anyone had luck with acupuncture? I think it's been mentioned in one of my previous posts, and the vet tech said her horses respond well, but I'm wary. He hates shots and has a scream to rival banshees, not sure how he'd react.

 

Bradley would like to add his winter coat doesn't make going outside any more enjoyable (he just hates it!),

 

Kaile, Bradley and the oh-so-problem-free Melvin

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Chiropractic has helped with my husband's severe arthritis, but not enough to get him off arthritis meds. Perhaps chiropractic could help your senior grey? Every little bit counts. I'd ask a veterinary chiropractor about their opinion on a heated pet bed. I don't have experience with the accupuncture part. Physical therapy has also done WONDERS for my husband. Do you have anything like that available for pets in your area?

[Guest EmilyAnne]

I started a thread a looong time ago, discussing alternatives to NSAID's. Perhaps that thread will give you some ideas. Click here.

[CaliforniaGreys]

Tramadol should be a big help. I use it here for any type of pain. It's also very safe for my girl with kidney disease.

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

Hm, wow, thanks. After reading the thread previously made, I'm not too sure about Tramadol. I didn't know it was that hardcore.

 

I was thinking acupuncture, so we might go talk to a holistic vet tomorrow. Perhaps they have a form of physical therapy as well. He's not overweight, very fit and active (well, trying to still be, I've limited his run time) and otherwise the picture of senior hound health. I had thought about herbal, but I don't have a huge budget to try a bunch of different things that have sketchy track records. I mean, I'd pay anything for the dogs, but I'd like to stay on tried and true methods.

[CaliforniaGreys]

What would make you think Tramadol was hardcore?

[GreyTzu]

I would look into both acupuncture and chiro. for your dog. You can search here to find a Vet near you who practices both modalities. I will be taking both my older grey Donner and our oldest 'Tzu to our holistic Vet on Tuesday for treatment. I drive about 75 miles one way to visit her.

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Hm, wow, thanks. After reading the thread previously made, I'm not too sure about Tramadol. I didn't know it was that hardcore.

 

I was thinking acupuncture, so we might go talk to a holistic vet tomorrow. Perhaps they have a form of physical therapy as well. He's not overweight, very fit and active (well, trying to still be, I've limited his run time) and otherwise the picture of senior hound health. I had thought about herbal, but I don't have a huge budget to try a bunch of different things that have sketchy track records. I mean, I'd pay anything for the dogs, but I'd like to stay on tried and true methods.

As far as Tramadol, you have to weigh the risks with the pros. It's certainly not a drug to give liberally, but I wouldn't rule it out altogether.

 

I like your plan you have laid out in the second paragraph. I hope you get some replies about what has helped others arthritic greys. And I can relate to not having a huge budget to try different things. There were many more things I wanted to try for my Henry's epilepsy, but unfortunately I do not have a never ending stash of money. Finally it got to a point where he needed something that was very effective NOW or he was going to die. So now we have him on Phenobarbital, which yes, is a very hefty drug, (I think more so than Tramadol?) but weighing the pros and cons, I know I'll never regret the choice.

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

What would make you think Tramadol was hardcore?

 

I think there was mention of possible seizures in the thread, and implied as a drug to not be taken lightly. I honestly knew nothing about it besides it being a synthetic opiate.

 

Still weighing options, though.

[greyhead]

We have an almost-8-year-old with back end weakness, serious enough to make him lose his balance and have to sit down in lieu of falling down. Our vet didn't think it would necessarily be productive to do x-rays or an MRI at this point -- just expensive. She referred us to a sports-rehab vet in our area.

 

That vet, also a "she", is doing acupuncture & chiropractic, and we saw the difference within hours of the first treatment. Then we added some chinese herbs that she mixed up, and that seems to be helping also, especially as his face-to-face appts. are getting less frequent. (We have to put the herbs in gelcaps and bury those in meatballs, cuz he's sure not touching them any other way!)

 

She also said to exercise him, in terms of walks, as much as he wants to go, because that will help keep joints and spine lubricated and muscles strong. (That lubrication bit is more powerful than one is tempted to think, as I found when I herniated a disc a few years back!) We had been holding him back on distance because our other grey has arthritis in all his paws, and early kidney disease, and sometimes can't do more than six blocks total. Now we bring sore-toe dog home if he's had enough and take weak-back dog back out for further mileage until he turns for home. (Fortunately, he's smart enough to know when he still has enough left to GET home, and I do hope that doesn't change anytime soon.)

 

I do hope this post is along the lines of info you were looking for. I'm very hopeful that the holistic vet will have something really helpful to offer you, and it's great that you have one in your area. I can't imagine what I'd do if we didn't... We'd probably have to move to where one was!

 

Mary, and nuzzles from Spencer and Shane

[Cynthia]

Is your boy taking Omega 3 supplements? (Fish Oil). That's a natural anti-inflammatory and an important basic, along with the glucosamine chondroitin, in joint health for pups. Exercise to build the muscles which support his joints and ensuring he's not overweight are also really important to minimize discomfort from arthritis. Diet can help too, there's some evidence that grain free high protein diets can help minimize symptoms.

 

Tramadol is a safe drug for pain. It's not addictive. But it also isn't an anti-inflammatory and that's where NSAIDs are more helpful for the pain of arthritis. How old is your boy? For my 13 yo, I use Gabapentin(Neurontin) which is a good pain reliever recently found to be effective for arthritis. I pulse NSAIDs only as needed - Deramaxx infrequently depending on how he's doing. Combined with exercise to tolerance every day, G/C and Omega 3 supplements, limited grain diet and keeping his weight low, he's doing really well and has had arthritis since he was 9. We do have blood tests every few months to check kidney values. But he's old, so I choose to keep him comfortable understanding that we may be compromising something else.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Cynthia

[Guest EmilyAnne]

Tramadol is a safe drug for pain. It's not addictive.

I was under the impression that it is addictive?

 

Anybody know about that? *off to do googling*

 

[Guest EmilyAnne]

I have been reading up *humans* experiences with it, as dogs can't talk or type. And what I am finding is that if used for a really long period of time, as in months and months, people are finding it is indeed addictive (physically addictive, not just psychological) and wondering why doctors did not warn them of this. So as far as the addictive thing, if one of my dogs needed Tramadol, I would not worry about the addictive part if I were using it short term, or intended to use it for life.

 

Anyways, this guy here gives a pretty good explanation of why doctors say it is not addictive:

Although Ultram is not a narcotic per se, it binds to the opiate receptors. It's action is such that discontinuation of Ultram will cause withdrawal symptoms. Ultram withdrawal is sometimes more prolonged than with narcotics. Your doctor may know nothing about this because many doctors think because it is not classifie as a narcotic it is "safe" and has no withdrawal potential.

from www.medhelp.org/forums/addictions/messages/30264a.html (had to hand type as my copy/paste is not working)

 

I would definately go with Greyhead's approach first. (provided that I was able to afford it of course) Greyhead's experience sounds very encouraging!

[CaliforniaGreys]

I am no vet, but Tramadol is a very safe drug. As for humans, I give Tramadol to many clients and have over many years. I have never seen an addiction problem. Listen, I am no fan of drugs, but when they're necessary, they're necessary. I would never want to see a dog in pain. Acupuncture is also a great help in situations like this.And when NSAID's can not be used and something is needed for pain, Tramadol would be my choice of drug for my dogs.

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

All great things to keep in mind. I worry about the acupuncture as he a cantankerous old man and really doesn't like being held down or touched by strangers when he's laying down--especially in a vet's office. My husband has gotten him comfortable enough to massage the leg (he used to hate having it touched) but I don't notice much of a difference afterwards. I called the holistic vet in my area today and it's more pricey than I anticipated--120 for the first session, is that normal? Also, how often would he need it if I went down this path? Things I should ask the vet, but I'd like to know before I schedule a consultation and my current vet would...well, he'd just shrug. Ergh.

 

I haven't tried supplements--the Cosequin I have him on his a multivitamin as well, but no fish oil. Ugh, the dog just hates pills so much, the one or two he takes every day has me in enough knots for now. At the moment he will only eat the whole thing if it's covered in cheese *and* his brother has 'a pill' before him (it's really just a biscuit, but he doesn't have to know that).

 

So Tramadol may be a good alternative? I just don't know how serious his pain is. He's always been a little trooper with his arthritis but he was in my wedding in August (heh) and ever since then it's gotten so much worse. On Cosequin his rear end has stopped shaking when he stands for too long but he still limps, especially on cement. He works out the limping 10-15 minutes into his walk, but his gait is still jolted every once and awhile, especially in the cold. He's 9 as well, and I'd like to think he has many good years left--I don't want to make him 'just comfortable' at this point. I want his life to still be fully functional--I can tell he misses our 3 hour hikes so bad, and his brother is still a big ball of spindly energy. We still walk 1 1/2 to 2 hours every day...is that too much? He seems to be able to handle it if it's light walking, especially if its somewhere he likes to go. I've always kept them on the muscular side as opposed to ultra-lean, but I can still see a slight indent on his last two ribs and hip bones, which I personally feel is perfect weight for him, so I'm not worried about that either.

 

I just want him to be happy and healthy as possible. I really appreciate all the responses--I'll keep them in mind in the upcoming weeks as I decide his treatment.

 

Kaile, Brad and Mel

[Guest EmilyAnne]

This goes along with what I was thinking about earlier, and something Cbudshome post made me think of. In our fear of some of these drugs and their risks, we the humans who don't have to live with the pain, need to be careful not to make a decision that is considering more fear of the drugs more than the comfort of the dog. It's hard for us to realize how much pain they may be in.

 

I don't want to make him 'just comfortable' at this point. I want his life to still be fully functional--I can tell he misses our 3 hour hikes so bad, and his brother is still a big ball of spindly energy.

 

I think you are spot on. And you know what? If he can increase his activity level due to the Tramadol, he will be healthier for it, counteracting some of the unhealthy risks/side effects there are from Tramadol. My husband is on Meloxicam. He tried like the dickens to stay off it, finally one day he came to terms, that though it increases his risk of cardiac arrest and yada yada, it also allows him to be able to exercise and be active, which is beneficial to health.

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

It's just such a hard line to walk on, you know? It's very hard to be the human adult in this situation, because if I make the wrong decision he could be in serious trouble. I'm thinking of trying the Tramadol after much deliberation, mainly because I think acupuncture at this point would be highly traumatic for him unless it was me doing it--we're kind of attached at the hip, if the posts here don't portray that heh. If he can enjoy a few years doing all the things he's used to but perhaps not make it to my 15 year goal for him (well, infinite really, but he can't live forever), then I think it'd be...better for him, in the long run he'd be just plain happier. My vet lets me go online for his prescriptions, and it's surprisingly cheap on Pet Meds.

 

Tomorrow I myself am going in for a minor surgery so my talk with the vet well have to wait. I bet this poor man is kicking himself for offering the highest wellness plan to Bradley--free office visits, and I sure do use them!

 

I bet Bradley sure wishes I'd stop talking about how old he is and his imminent death,

 

Kaile, Brad and Mel

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

By the way, if you all want to see the boy in question, I posted a picture in Cute and Funny Things Greyhounds Do under Show Us Your Pictures.

 

He's so pretty!

[CaliforniaGreys]

Just a word about online PetMeds, Petscriptions.com is much cheaper and it may also be worth it to ask your vet if he'll price match. Most of the vets here do