Guest Fasave Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I posted a few weeks ago about my 8.5 yr old displaying bizzare wobbling symptoms in all four legs. At the time, I was trying to determine if it was possible that it could be a disk issue as these "episodes" only last 3-5 minutes and there are no other indications of back pain. The problem is that they only way to find out is to do an expensive MRI. I opted for acupuncture but I have no sense if this is working. In the meantime, he started having all kinds of GI issues. On Sunday, we woke up very lethargic and lame. I had to lift him off the bed and then noticed severe lameness in his front right leg. He made it down the stairs to the yard but I had to carry him back up the stairs. When it didn't resolve quickly, I took him to the e-vets and it resolved itself by the time I walked in the door. I decided to have the vet look at him anyway. Long story short, they took blood (just had a physical with perfect blood work in May), gave him flagyl and an ortho surgeon looked at the leg and found soreness in the elbow, ankle and toes and thought potentially tick disease. So, Monday we saw an internal medicine doc. Initial bloodwork showed protein loss disease of the kidneys but cause unknown. Had an ultra sound, nothing. Negative for Lyme, negative for auto immune disease, negative on all common tick titers. Because he has had a positive tick titer for Babesia in the past, we opted to do a PCR and send it to NCSU. He is now on flagyl, pepcid, Enacard and a bland diet. Today, he had another one of his "episodes". All four legs, I had to lay him down on someone's lawn until he recovered. It happened after a bowel movement (which has happened before). Because it lasted longer and he seemed to be taking longer to get through it than in the past, I rushed him to the e-vet where both the IM doc and Neurologist doc were working today. Of course, he walked in the door wagging his tail and psyched to see all his friends he's been visiting on a regular basis. Sigh. They all think I'm crazy. I did try to catch it on video but my cellphone was dead when I pulled it out of my pocket. Anyway, everyone consulted and still think it could be the disk issue (and let me go at no charge). The PCR for Babesia can take 2-4 weeks and I'm going out of town on business next week. I'm nervous for my dog sitter as it feels like a lot to ask of someone to take care of dog with a known issue and no diagnosis. So, my question is does anyone who has experience with Babesia know of this disease mimicking disc issues? I don't want to rush to an MRI to find out it's symptomatic of Babesia. Of course, I don't want to put off treatment for a disk to find out he's babesia negative. Also, does anyone know how to join the tick-L list? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShantisMom Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Search Tick List. Burpdog posted it a while back. It should pull up for you. My dog was treated in December for Babesia. She is dead lame in her right front, but she also has Immune Mediated Poly Arthritis. We have on and off GI issues. Right now we are battling a nasty skin infection from being immune suppressed. She is also currently having some shakiness in her right rear leg. I don't know if it mimicking disc disease. Tick list would probably know. Good luck! I know how frustrating this can be!!! Here is the link for you for Tick List. http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ticklinks.htm Quote The Girls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mandm Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 (edited) As long as NCSU has a sample, why don't you have them run a Babesia titer? It's cheap and turnaround time on a titer should be very fast, a day or two. Sounds like it has been a while since the original titer. If it is gone up, then you might be on to something. ETA: Yours is a very good question for the Tick List. Edited July 17, 2008 by mandm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinw Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Phoenix limped when he had babesia. it seemed like he had arthritis but it wasn't. Here's how to jointhe tick list. It really helped me when I had questions about Phoenix's babesia. Hopefully somebody there can answer your questions... "Address an email to: LISTSERV@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM I am pretty sure you need to leave the subject line blank. in the text say: SUBSCRIBE TICK-L Your Name (Please replace Your Name with your Real Name) Quote Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onrushpam Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I'm not a vet and don't play one on TV, but have dealt with LOTS of tick crud. Did they do a full titer panel? Doesn't sound like it. I'd put the dog on Doxycycline until the test results come back. If it is Babesia, the Doxy won't cure it, but you will likely see improvement in just a few days. Lameness/swelling in one or more legs is a frequent symptom of Babesia. I just got a call earlier tonight about a dog with very similar symptoms to yours, though he is much younger. He also tested positive for Babesia in the past. Quote Pam GPA-Tallahassee/Southeastern Greyhound Adoption "Fate is unalterable only in the sense that given a cause, a certain result must follow, but no cause is inevitable in itself, and man can shape his world if he does not resign himself to ignorance." Pearl S. Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhndz Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I'm going to stalk Shanti's Mom again, because we've had very similar experiences with our autoimmune (immune mediated) polyarthritis hounds. One of the features of IMPA is migratory lameness - the dog may be lame transiently in one extremity, and then minutes or hours later, appear fine, only to be lame in another extremity at another time. Lethargy, fever, GI symptoms -- may also be part of the IMPA syndrome. Per Dr. Sisson, labwork may appear deceptively normal, and the tests for autoimmune disease that they run (usually sedimentation rate, ANA, canine rheumatoid factor) are very often normal. I don't remember if any of the vets at MVRH had tapped his joints -- this would be a definitive way of finding out if there is an inflammatory arthritis. The joint fluid can also be cultured for infection, including tickborne disease. I totally agree with pursuing the PCR and serial titres, and treating him in the interim if he hasn't been already. You also had him titred for anaplasma, didn't you? I don't recall all of the diagnostics Dr. Silver et al have done up until now. Has a lumbar puncture been done? Renal ultrasound? Urine studies (protein creatinine ratio)? Is he on a kidney diet? (I'm really nosey tonight, aren't I? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fasave Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I'm going to stalk Shanti's Mom again, because we've had very similar experiences with our autoimmune (immune mediated) polyarthritis hounds. One of the features of IMPA is migratory lameness - the dog may be lame transiently in one extremity, and then minutes or hours later, appear fine, only to be lame in another extremity at another time. Lethargy, fever, GI symptoms -- may also be part of the IMPA syndrome. Per Dr. Sisson, labwork may appear deceptively normal, and the tests for autoimmune disease that they run (usually sedimentation rate, ANA, canine rheumatoid factor) are very often normal. I don't remember if any of the vets at MVRH had tapped his joints -- this would be a definitive way of finding out if there is an inflammatory arthritis. The joint fluid can also be cultured for infection, including tickborne disease. I totally agree with pursuing the PCR and serial titres, and treating him in the interim if he hasn't been already. You also had him titred for anaplasma, didn't you? I don't recall all of the diagnostics Dr. Silver et al have done up until now. Has a lumbar puncture been done? Renal ultrasound? Urine studies (protein creatinine ratio)? Is he on a kidney diet? (I'm really nosey tonight, aren't I? ) Let me see if I can answer all your questions. First, what's IMPA? They ran a full ANA series. They did the full TBD panel with IDEXX but sent all babesia info to NCSU. The ortho surgeon who saw him on Sunday morning in the e-room did tap his joints and noticed pain which lead to the IM appointment on Monday. As far as I know, he has never had fever. A lumbar puncture has not been done. Why would we do that? He did have an ultra sound on Monday which I assume was renal based on his blood work. Protein creatinine ratio is off so he's on Enacard and currently on ID food until the GI resolve. Still kicking myself for not going to Sisson. The IM doc did admit that they don't have a lot of experience with Babesia. Because all the other titers are negative, she's not recommending Doxy. Great questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhndz Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 (edited) IMPA = immune mediated (autoimmune) polyarthritis. Did the ortho indicate what he found when he tapped the joints? Can you find out if he sent the fluid for lab analysis and culture? So much information can be garnered from that fluid! A lumbar puncture (spinal tap) could provide information about why he is having the relapsing neurologic symptoms. Spinal fluid is analyzed for signs of inflammation or granulomatous/autoimmune disease such as GME. It can also be cultured for infection and tickborne disease, just as joint fluid can. One set of tick titres may be normal, but it's important to do serial (repeat) titres, because it can take a few weeks for a dog to mount antibody response to a tickborne disease. When I was going through this with Lexi last fall, I was in close contact with Cynthia Holland at Protatek -- she recommended repeating the titre in about 3 weeks, expecting it to have risen if she had active Lyme disease. And it never hurts to put a dog on Doxy while awaiting PCR results, even if the tick panel is negative. They just need to use an adequate dose: 10mg/kg or 5mg/lb given twice daily (doxy). And I know that $$$$ is becoming tight but it's never too late to connect with Dr. Sisson. You can also e-mail him to see if he has any suggestions. (I'm going down there 7/26 - back-to-back cardiology and neuro appointments. My wallet is bleeding!!) Let me see if I can answer all your questions. First, what's IMPA? They ran a full ANA series. They did the full TBD panel with IDEXX but sent all babesia info to NCSU. The ortho surgeon who saw him on Sunday morning in the e-room did tap his joints and noticed pain which lead to the IM appointment on Monday. As far as I know, he has never had fever. A lumbar puncture has not been done. Why would we do that? He did have an ultra sound on Monday which I assume was renal based on his blood work. Protein creatinine ratio is off so he's on Enacard and currently on ID food until the GI resolve. Still kicking myself for not going to Sisson. The IM doc did admit that they don't have a lot of experience with Babesia. Because all the other titers are negative, she's not recommending Doxy. Great questions! Edited July 17, 2008 by houndznigz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fasave Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 IMPA = immune mediated (autoimmune) polyarthritis. Did the ortho indicate what he found when he tapped the joints? Can you find out if he sent the fluid for lab analysis and culture? So much information can be garnered from that fluid! A lumbar puncture (spinal tap) could provide information about why he is having the relapsing neurologic symptoms. Spinal fluid is analyzed for signs of inflammation or granulomatous/autoimmune disease such as GME. It can also be cultured for infection and tickborne disease, just as joint fluid can. One set of tick titres may be normal, but it's important to do serial (repeat) titres, because it can take a few weeks for a dog to mount antibody response to a tickborne disease. When I was going through this with Lexi last fall, I was in close contact with Cynthia Holland at Protatek -- she recommended repeating the titre in about 3 weeks, expecting it to have risen if she had active Lyme disease. And it never hurts to put a dog on Doxy while awaiting PCR results, even if the tick panel is negative. They just need to use an adequate dose: 10mg/kg or 5mg/lb given twice daily (doxy). And I know that $$$$ is becoming tight but it's never too late to connect with Dr. Sisson. You can also e-mail him to see if he has any suggestions. (I'm going down there 7/26 - back-to-back cardiology and neuro appointments. My wallet is bleeding!!) Let me see if I can answer all your questions. First, what's IMPA? They ran a full ANA series. They did the full TBD panel with IDEXX but sent all babesia info to NCSU. The ortho surgeon who saw him on Sunday morning in the e-room did tap his joints and noticed pain which lead to the IM appointment on Monday. As far as I know, he has never had fever. A lumbar puncture has not been done. Why would we do that? He did have an ultra sound on Monday which I assume was renal based on his blood work. Protein creatinine ratio is off so he's on Enacard and currently on ID food until the GI resolve. Still kicking myself for not going to Sisson. The IM doc did admit that they don't have a lot of experience with Babesia. Because all the other titers are negative, she's not recommending Doxy. Great questions! It sounds like you might have experience with Dr. Silver. She was recommended by my regular vet but I'm not sure I am on board with her. I don't think she can be convinced to do a spinal tap as she is really holding her ground on the disk diagnosis. Another problem is that I feel like I'm running out of time with this business trip next week. I have plenty of back up but I will be 1200 miles away if this becomes critical. Does anyone know why it takes 2-4 weeks for a PCR? The surgeon just looked quickly as the e-vet wanted to do an x-ray and she was talked out of it (thankfully). There was no fluid drawn. I finally got onto the Tick-L. Thanks everyone for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mandm Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 And it never hurts to put a dog on Doxy while awaiting PCR results, even if the tick panel is negative. But if this dog is having GI problems, then the Doxy may aggravate those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShantisMom Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I'm going to stalk Shanti's Mom again, because we've had very similar experiences with our autoimmune (immune mediated) polyarthritis hounds. But you are always a wealth of information Jordan! So, when are we writing a book??? Quote The Girls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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