[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Okay, I'm going to forgo the quotes and direct responses to address the topics that keep being raised over and over again.

 

1. Nutrition: Can a vegan diet be nutritionally complete?

Yes, it can. Don't take my word for it if you don't want to (nor should you take JUST my word for it). Do your own research. Here are a few places to start:

Vegetarian Canine Diets Andrew Knight BSc. (Vet. Biol.), BVMS, MRCVS Veterinarian. This site has a good deal of information, with lots of resources linked.

Vegan Dog Nutrition Association by James O'Heare, CABC. Companion Animal Nutrition Certificate levels, 1, 2 & 3.

Vegetarian Diets Can Be Healthy for Dogs, by Dr. Armaiti May, D.V.M., C.V.A.

These and a simple google search will turn up will turn up tons of information, scholarly and otherwise.

 

2. Natural: It's not natural to feed a dog a vegan diet.

So what? It's not natural to feed kibble or canned food, either. It's not natural for them to live in houses and have manufactured beds and rubber chew toys, and to ride to the dog park in a car and have vaccinations. This is a non-issue in our world.

3. Palatability: Are they being deprived of dining pleasure? Can they enjoy a vegan diet?

Yes and yes. They don't get to eat a lot of things they'd get pleasure from, which has been discussed already. They very much do enjoy the vegan food, so they aren't pining away for lack of something not in front of them. Their quality of life is not threatened in this area.

 

4. Compassion: Widening the circle.

We all here share a compassion for our companion animals, and even for those we've never met, to the point where we can be brought to tears reading about the plight of dogs thousands of miles away. We all have that in common here.

 

Some choose to widen that compassion to animals other than dogs, cats, or other pets, which includes not eating them or being a part of a market that includes their commodification and inevitable abuse. No one here can, or has even tried to deny the horrors that are part of factory farming. We can't un-know what we know about that. With knowledge comes responsibility. More "humane" farming is a step in the right direction, but only a step.

 

Having chosen not to eat animals, I also choose not to feed them to my dogs (the cats are still on hold for the moment while I get more information and confidence about proceeding with them), thus widening the circle even further.

 

5. Ecology: Our meat-based culture is not sustainable, ecologically (again, do your own research).

It's important to begin the process of reducing or omitting our dependance on animal protein to preserve ourselves, each other, and the entire ecosystem . We, and our millions of pets, can't continue to eat meat as we have become accustomed to do here in the States and western Europe. The world can't afford it. A lot of the world has never gotten to the point we are at in terms of assuming meat consumption is a natural right not to be denied.

 

************************************************************

 

I'm aware that this topic really pushes people's buttons. I've been a veg*n for a long time, and I've had these conversations before. The reaction is so strong, so threatened, that it feels to me like what's being thrown at me is a projection of a conflict already happening inside the other person.

 

It's hard to have this bright light shining into an area we'd rather keep dark: eating meat means hurting and killing a lot of animals, and it's not necessary, not healthy, and not safe for the earth. Knowing that means that eating a hamburger, steak or chop, your Sunday bacon, whatever, is not a compassionate act, and we'd all like to preserve the idea of ourselves as compassionate. Be brave. Look deep. It isn't a fun or happy place to be, knowing these truths.

 

{DH reminds me to be humble. Bless his heart! I'm not claiming sainthood here. Ahem. Far from it. My compassion is incomplete, and I don't want you to think *I* believe otherwise. It's a goal I'm aiming at, and working towards, stumping along and evolving.}

 

Luckily, we can easily restore our self-image, help save the planet, and a LOT of animals, by eating lower on the foodchain. It's cheaper (in SO many ways!), and it's very enjoyable! I promise! I LOVE to eat!

 

We can also bring our pets' consumption down the foodchain. Even reducing the amount of meat products they eat is a reasonable first step.

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

OK, I've now read through the entire thread.[...]

I applaud you! Quite a ride, no?

I've done a lot of trimming on your considered and thorough response in areas I have already responded to, but you make some new points we haven't quite got to:

Incidentally, did you know there's a school of thought that says that a big contributor to the current epidemic of cancers and allergies and sensitivities among humans and animals is that we no longer carry parasites? Quite seriously, yes there is, and it seems to be gaining credibility. It's not too big a stretch if you think about it. Our immune systems used to be challenged on a regular basis by things our species had been challenged by for millennia. Without them, the animal's immune system can turn on itself - that's the theory in a nutshell. Then it responds to things it shouldn't respond to, and fails to respond to things that it should deal with.

Hm! That's interesting. I had read years and years ago in one of my goat care books that a goat with absolutely no worms is not a healthy goat, which was along these lines. I hadn't heard anything about it being extended to humans yet.

[...]

I am still concerned about {bioavailability}. How many sources have you read, and from where? And when you say 'broken up', how are you going to do that? It's true that we too are 'short digestive tract' animals and we manage, but scientific data supports most people's belief that we are omnivores, and we've had a long, long, time to adapt to eating cooked food. Dogs have only been eating cooked food since ... I dunno, but it can't be before the beginning of the 19th century, not to any degree. Commerical pet foods surely haven't been around that long? I know my own grandparents had no access to it.

How many sources: I can't say because I didn't count, but lots, and from various sources from anecdotal to surveys of research studies. Which is not to say I'm done looking. It's still a concern, and I want specifics about the various ingredients I might add to their diet.

By "broken up" I mean either cooked to soft-soft (in the case of beans and grains, and some veg) and/or chopped finely, and/or put in a blender or food processor. For instance in the case of tiny seeds like sesame or quinoa, I don't see them having a chance of being accessed on their ride through the system unless they have been broken down to a paste (think tahini and hummus).

 

[...] Not so fast as to be able to keep up on this one. Evolution happens slowly. If we try to rush it, we usually pay the price - as with BSE. Sheep and cows were never meant to eat meat. We (meaning irresponsible people somewhere in the meat/farming industry) forced them to eat meat. Therefore we all ended up screwed and serve us right.

Your point about the ability of evolution to keep up with the rapid changes in their environment is a good one. Again, as opportunistic feeders, domestic dogs have thrown in their lot with humans, probably before we learned to cook much anyway. DH just came in to say he'd already responded to this point. We were talking about it, and realized that even if dogs had only been with us since early Egyptian times, which is clearly not the case, they would have had at least 5 generations to our 1 to evolve along with us. An interesting point. Another way to see their genetic mutability and adaptability is to look at the different shapes humans have been able to coax out of dogs' genes. Just thought of that in this context.

 

Who's to say what happens when you deny a carnivore the right to make meat the main part of his diet and give him vegetable matter only - and some of it, vegetable matter he will never naturally have come across?

[...]

Well, you could ask people who have done so successfully for years, and years, and years. Or ask the dogs of those people. And their vets. It turns out that it can be not only a successful diet, but a beneficial one, and an enjoyable one, as MerlinsMum has pointed out a few times, and as I've found with my bunch so far.

 

I do not assume we all have a "right" to choose what we eat, and by "we all" I mean all of us animals. I think that's a fond cultural illusion of our time and our place on the planet right now.

 

There are many other factors which do come into the decision-making process though: availability of a given resource, immediate cost to attain the resource, cost in the long-run of a given resource, availability of comparable resources, and their costs, long and short-term. As humans, with our mighty brains, we can look into the future based on the trends of the past and present. We can calculate the long-term costs (if we try) of taking whatever we want. We can also do that for our pets, in this culture of many choices. We can choose to feed them meat, with its unsustainably high and cascading environmental cost, and the cost to the meat-animals, and eventually to us all, or we can choose to feed them and ourselves lower on the food chain, where there is less damage, lower cost, and everyone still gets the necessary nutrition to survive and thrive. Happily. For a lot longer.

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Okay, last bunch, then I'm moving on for the day!

 

You sound like a very caring person about all living things. I commend you for that. Honestly, though, some animals were created to eat meat - including dogs. If left to their own devices I doubt they would run in a field and graze on grain. Some animals are created for that. You most likely won't harm your dogs since you are obviously doing tons of research and making sure they are healthy. But what would your dogs do, if given a choice?

Just my view. My guys love their meat - also eggs, fish, etc.

We already discussed dogs' being evolved or created to eat meat, so I'll pass over that.

 

You bring up the choice question, which I haven't really gone into. (I had to laugh a little because I had to interrupt responding because DH was eating a carrot, and all three dogs jumped up and banged to be let out of my studio so they could go beg for some of the carrot! They do the same thing if they hear me cutting up an apple. How they can tell an apple over an onion from the other room I don't know, but they know! )

 

As others mention, dogs (being omnivores) would choose to eat poop, grass, fast food, ripe garbage, long dead carrion, candy, alcohol, even socks (ahem, WABI, I'm looking at YOU! ) They would also show evident enjoyment over any of these things, and you can add your list of animal products.

 

I choose for their health and the health of my bank account (the vet is so expensive!) not to allow them to eat a lot of the things on their long list of favorites. They honestly don't seem to pine over them. Dogs like what they're eating NOW. That's the beauty of being in the moment, right?

 

.... and I think this thread IS generating an interesting discussion. Whenever people have disagreed, Xan has been incredibly gracious, even when ignorant and offensive statements have been thrown at her. There is no doubt at all in my mind that she started this thread to create a good, constructive debate on this issue. So, thanks!

 

greyhoundlady - my two greys have never been as excited about food as when I started to feed them vegan kibble. They danced around like crazy whenever I went near the bag. They much preferred it to their meat kibble. And they LOVE their fruit and veggies. So yes, given the choice, they would opt for that every time.

Thanks, MerlinsMum.

 

I made my first batch of kibble last night. I can tell you now, I won't be doing that again any time soon! Whew!! It might be fine if I had 3 Italian greyhounds, but the quantities required to feed 3 regular greys is truly impressive when you're the one mixing whole bags of flour, quarts of water, cups of oil and supplements, then rolling, cutting, baking, flipping and baking, then breaking up and drying, then figuring out what to do with the finished kibble! It took me about 5 hours, plus more clean-up this morning, to do TWO DAYS worth of food! So, fresh food plus maybe commercial kibble for them!

 

They loved it, though, so that's good. Even though that's no measure of whether it's good for them in itself, at least I didn't have to force them to eat it. They picked it out of their regular kibble after lapping up the veggie soup, however, so I take it as a good pass on the palatability test.

 

[...]

Even if you achieve your goal of making them food they are actually going to eat (and good luck with that, especially with the cats), and manage to maintain them longterm on a nutritionally balanced diet, there is going to be something missing in their lives, to do with quality of life. If you think this isn't going to be so, put them on your vegan diet for six months or so, and have someone throw them a single sausage. By watching their behaviour, I'm willing to be that it will be 100% clear to you that they are unhappy with a meat/animal product-free diet.

 

To put it bluntly, I wouldn't do it to a dog.

Thanks for the confidence in my good intent, anyway. See above for palatability and choice discussion.

 

I tried another experimental recipe this morning. I made an amount of seitan, mixed with supplements, to equal the crude protein needs for the three dogs for one day. Seitan is 75% protein (though not complete, especially for dogs), so I knew it would be a lot less volume than the kibble. AND a lot easier! In an hour and a half (most of that simmer time on the stove), I had a bunch of spongy blobs of protein that the dogs love, and I can use to boost the protein in my recipes. It can be frozen, too, which is nice.

 

I am retracting my offer to share my spreadsheet for now, since it needs some re-work, and I'd like to take more of a look at the NRC info, if I can find it. I see I actually did use some of what I did run across, but not the basic nutritional needs list. I'm bothered that the available list only refers to growth levels, not maintenance, which is a big difference. Even so, it's much lower than than the AAFCO's lists. Lots to learn!

 

Xan, when you look into celery seed, look into it's nitrate content. No idea about the seeds, but celery juice is high in nitrates and is often used to cure "uncured" bacon, hot dogs, etc. often leaving them with a higher nitrate content than similar products cured the traditional way with a nitrate solution.

Interesting! Thanks. Will do!

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Alright, next bunch. Again, I'll edit to keep things a little more compact, and pass over things I've already addressed.

[...]

I am absolutely saying nothing of the sort. What I am saying is that carnivores are designed/evolved/created/whatever to consume other living things, just as herbivores like horses and rabbits and ruminants were designed/evolved/created/whatever to survive on vegetation. The implications associated with the American food industry in which animals (chickens, cattle, hogs, ducks, turkeys, lambs and sheep) are raised and killed, largely after having been raised on factory farms under inhumane conditions is a separate issue. A dog is neither complicit because he is a carnivore, nor unethical because the American food industry is inhumane. Biology makes the dog a carnivore. The only reason that that carnivore has reason to have involvement in the American food industry is the complicity of the dog's human keepers in supporting such and industry, if they so choose, and the actions of those humans to stifle the natural food procurement of a carnivore.

As in, keeping dogs from hunting on their own?

Well, okay. This is logic, and I agree with what you have here, except to quibble about the term "carnivore". Canids are in the order Carnivore, which is a big group including bears, raccoons and the giant panda. In other words, there is a lot of variation in the diets of carnivores. Pandas famously live only on bamboo shoots! Dogs have evolved to live off whatever is available, selecting for high-protein food sources wherever possible, which of course includes animal sources. Agreed?

 

You do put the ethics at the door of humans and their choices correctly, and we already agree on that.

 

Violence takes many forms, not all of them readily apparent in the short term. Here's hoping there are no ill effects down the line.

Agreed and agreed. I do hope and will do whatever I can to make sure that my choices do NOT come under even the most elastic definition of violence.

 

Life is a compromise. Certainly dogs don't get to run freely without risk of being hit by a car, but that's not by virtue of their being pets, but rather because that's the compromise we strike so that we can have cars and dogs. There are, however, lots of dogs breeding and not a whole lot of carnivores getting beat up or worm-ridden hunting for their food - quite the opposite.

We're mostly referring to life in the States in this conversation, and I assume most of western Europe is probably much the same, but elsewhere life is different for dogs and humans. DH was telling me again about his observations in Cusco, Peru, of the dogs living alongside humans in the city streets, observing traffic and crossing when safe. I saw a fascinating documentary about stray dogs in urban settings who even learned the subway systems, and rode along for free on regular routes. Life is a compromise, or a lot of opportunities to adapt in new ways.

 

I don't get what you mean about carnivores not getting beat up or worm-ridden while living au naturale. Wild carnivores have a rough life. They get parasites, they get kicked, bitten, scratched and run ragged by their prey and their fellow hunters. Eventually, the injuries and insults to their tough bodies is too much, they can't hunt anymore, and they starve to death, or die of infection or whatever. Is this not what you were referring to?

 

Older pets can certainly benefit from a vegan diet. Meat is hard to digest, though high in the nutrients that dogs need.

 

Hard to digest as compared to what?

Let's say ground up cooked vegetable matter.

 

How many people here calculate out that their dog is getting the appropriate nutrients? Either by AAFCO or NRC, you don't have to specify.

Well, right. We assume we don't have to if the bag says it's complete nutrition, right?

 

Xan, I won't try to deal with the multiple quotes since I always mess them up, but to answer your question about omega 3s.[...]

Excellent stuff. So glad you were able to track down what worked for you.

Yes, I'm still studying the Omegas question. It's a fuzzy area with lots of conflicting research, but I'm very interested to find out what I can, especially as my Wabi has had arthritis since she was a year old. I read recently some promising stuff about celery seed which I plan to find out more about, specifically for arthritis. The Omegas question is still, as I say, open for me.

 

For what it's worth, I switched my two away from Grizzly Salmon oil and started giving them flaxseed oil quite some time ago - and their coat is better than ever, plus they don't fart as much. [...]

 

In any event, if anyone is worried, there is no need to go back to fish oil - use ground flax seed instead of flaxseed oil.[...]

I've read this in many places, which I find encouraging despite some lingering doubt about the bioavailability. The repeated stories of skin and coat improvement on a vegan diet may be as much about simplicity and quality of ingredients, freshness, stuff like that, since most traditionally available commercial diets are not probably as minimally processed nor as fresh, generally, nor sourced from consistently high-quality sources, nor produced in small batches which can be controlled more easily. I'm looking forward to seeing improvements in my crew, though none of them currently has much of a problem (Brilly has a few flakes from time to time).

 

But, why flax meal over flax oil?

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

I'm going to respond in stages, since so much is here to respond to! I'm going to skip stuff if I feel I've already addressed it, so if you think I've missed your post, maybe look back at what I've already said for your answer.

 

[...]But look at this from the perspective of a cow or a pig for a moment. As an ethical vegan, my commitment is not just to the dogs in my care, but to other sentient beings as well. Cows are sentient beings, just like dogs. They are perceptually aware, experience panic & fear, grief and joy, just like your dogs do. Both can suffer. There is absolutely no ethical distinction whatsoever between someone taking a cow's life and someone taking your dog's life. The only difference is that the cow is a stranger to you, and your dog is not [...] But these cows - these numbers with a pierced tag in their ears - are all individuals. We just choose to ignore that fact.

Visual aid:

These young cows show up in early spring, ratty and scabby, tagged and skinny. They live in these meadows for the summer, and are moved on to their dairy/breeding/feedlot lives in the fall. They show a great deal of interest in us as we walk by, often following us along the fence, and approaching its electric wires carefully to check us out. This is the high point of their sad, short lives.

We do hear the cows crying for their babies in the summer and fall, and it's heartbreaking. Their calls echo all through our little valley.

The point that we can love what's familiar, and disassociate from strangers is an important one. Doesn't it seem important to be aware of this if you are an animal lover?

 

I am not vegan, though I live with a vegan (Xan). At home I eat vegetarian- no meat in the house, for health reasons. Xan's veganism doesn't threaten me in the least, and I am puzzled why it gets such heat here.

I think it is getting such heat here for exactly why this thread was posted in the first place -- as an attention getter.

Well, yes. I did want attention. Why would I post if I wanted everyone to ignore this discussion or if I didn't want any input? I do! I find it stimulating, for sure, but also useful. There has been some nutritional advice that has sent me off looking in areas I hadn't found yet, and I hope some people have also had a chance to consider reducing their pets' impact on the world in a new way because of this conversation. I hope there is more of all this!

 

Has anyone expressed perplexity? I think most if not all of us just disagree. You know, there is another option, which is to not have pets that are designed to eat meat as companion animals if your ethics don't allow you to feed them accordingly. I'm not necessarily saying this should be your choice, just that it is one, just as your decision to be vegan is a choice.

 

Absolutely. Very well put. I might take issue with the bolded statement as it implies that my choices do NOT take the welfare of other animals into account and I would disagree with that statement, but I am certain our definitions of how one does that are quite different.

Can you put your definition into words here? I am interested. Honestly.

The brief answer is that I source the meat I eat and the meat I feed my dogs as much as possible from local farms where they are raised humanely and naturally (there's that word again ;P) ), not CAFO meat, which in addition to being raised inhumanely raises a lot of health and environmental concerns for me.

I addressed my choice about pets earlier, so I'll leave that, and congratulate you on taking this level of responsibility for your pets' food! I do remember now that you said that elsewhere. Thanks for putting it here in this conversation for those who may have missed it.

 

Sure there is [{an} ethical distinction whatsoever between someone taking a cow's life and someone taking your dog's life]. My greys were bred and raised for a purpose, just like those dairy cows. When they were done with their first purpose, their second was to live life as a pet. Distinction - both bred for a purpose, but only the cow was bred to be dinner for somebody/something.

How many cows do you know are just bred as pets? Very few. Dogs are around typically as pets, some with a working purpose. If we were a society where dogs were bred for food instead of pets, well, things would probably be a bit different.

 

Some people choose to ignore that fact, but not everybody. I eat beef now and then. I am aware of what happened to that cow before it showed up in my refrigerator/grill/plate/belly. I know the chicken in my freezer didn't lead the happiest life around. Just because I don't choose to NOT eat them doesn't mean I ignore that they are "individuals"

 

 

 

As for Xan feeding her dogs a vegan diet. If she can make it work and her dogs do as well as they were before, more power to her. I don't agree with it and it isn't something I'd personally choose, but I know that if it doesn't work for any of her dogs, she'll change to something that will.

Trudy, thanks. I appreciate your vote of confidence in my concern for my dogs. But, your point about cows being bred for food making it alright to eat them, whereas dogs were bred to become pets, so it would not be alright to eat them, puzzles me, honestly. Is that really how you feel? Does it make a difference to the animal why it was bred when it comes time to get out of the truck either to the slaughterhouse or a new home? The dog certainly lucks out, but how is it for the cow? Should s/he be philosophical, knowing (somehow) that s/he is only meat on the hoof, after all? Will it make it all less scary or painful?

 

I have read one page of this thread and am a bit dismayed. But decided to reply anyway because I doubt anyone has contributed this information. I will leave out my thoughts on this particular diet, I am sure you don't want to hear them!

 

What I want to comment on is creating a homemade recipe. You DO NOT want to go by AAFCO guidelines. You want to use the NRC guidelines.[...]

Wow! Thanks for all this info, seriously! I looked around a bit last night after reading this, and if this is what you're referring to, the report costs a low, low sale price of $265.50. Do you have access to the content of this report in some way that a lay person could get? I do find a chart or two that summarizes the differences in the AAFCO requirements and the NRC's, but I'm sure there's a lot more than that in all those pages.

 

Contrary to what you expect, I started this thread to hear what people think. This, for instance, is valuable information, and I'm glad you shared it! When people are being constructive or expressing strong feelings with the intent of actually communicating, making a difference, encouraging thought and rationality, that's when we can all learn! So, again, thanks for all this.

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Thanks MaryJane and scfilby. I've been a vegan/vegetarian long enough to know this is a really touchy subject for so many people. I want to draw back the veil, or make it non-threatening as much as I can, so people can have a serious discussion, with logic, rationality, and respect. Humor even! When rocks start flying, everyone just hunkers down behind their respective fortifications, and no discussion is possible. I'm glad this has remained as calm as it has!

 

If you'd like to download a copy of the spreadsheet, and my bookmarked research (some of it, anyway - what I remembered to bookmark), email me. If you're a newbie and can't use the system yet, quick go post a bunch, then email me!

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Regarding the "prisoner" thing. I haven't seen anyone suggest that our relationship with dogs particularly, but other animals as well, is co-evolutionary. That they have evolved to coexist with us for mutually beneficial reasons. We give them a sense of security, and they give us back. We hedge against their extinction which gives them a huge advantage over other critters in the world. Dogs ride our coat-tails to evolutionary success. It makes sense that they could be omnivores to easily coexist with us.

Oh yeah! This is such an interesting concept. It kind of messed with my head the first time we talked about it, but it's grown on me, as it makes the most sense, evolutionarily.

 

OK, let's try environmental economies for the vegitarian/vegan choice (one of my arguments). It takes 300 liters of water to make a liter of ale. it takes 16,000 liters of water to make a kg of beef. If you ain't got the water (and we don't) beef makes no sense. Ale on the other hand...

BTW, DH here is a water treatment guy, and has seen close-up-and-personal the water issues of the world. He knows whereof he speaks!

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

...You could even go so far as to say that the only reason they like us at all is because of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

Sorry to be off topic, but this statement makes me feel horrible about having pets.. I suppose I can tell myself that at least I love them and make sure their needs are taken care of, even if I impose my wants over theirs..

NOT off-topic! The choice of feeding vegan is a choice based on compassion. It's simply true that the animals we live with, however they came to be here, are under our control (well, supposedly! See kydie's hilarious post!) We all hope and try to be good care-takers, right?

 

Until there are no more pets, until a time when we can look at animals not as food or property, but as friends and neighbors with their own lives to live, until we can share the world with them with respect for habitat and some restraint on our own whims and desires, adopting animals is the higher good. What we feed them then becomes a worthwhile question in the larger context of that respect for life. Including our own, I want to keep adding! We're all in this together!

 

You and I totally agree on the ethical scale: "My scale is based on what is ideal, not what is doable." Your ideal seems to be to feed the meat diet you feel your dogs evolved to eat. My ideal is to feed them a diet they will thrive on, which I hope to remove animal products from entirely. We're really not so far apart in our bottom line of wanting the best health for our pets. I'm just choosing to include the welfare of lots of other animals (including us humans) in the equation. It does complicate things for me, but I'm already such a complicated person!

Absolutely. Very well put. I might take issue with the bolded statement as it implies that my choices do NOT take the welfare of other animals into account and I would disagree with that statement, but I am certain our definitions of how one does that are quite different.

Can you put your definition into words here? I am interested. Honestly.

 

Totally unscientific experiment I performed this morning.

 

Sadie loves salad, she is a lettuce FIEND. So I offered at the same time a piece of lettuce and a smaller piece of roast beef. She ate the roast beef without hesitation first. Then she ate the lettuce.

 

I don't agree with feeding a dog a vegan diet. I have a dog who does not respond well to grains, carbohydrates, fruits, or veggies, but does fantastically on a raw diet. Since being in school they have been put on a mainly kibble diet but still get a raw dinner a few times a week. (I'm in school not the dogs )...

 

I think every person has the right to decide what to eat, whether for health reasons, ethical reasons, or both. I don't think it's wise to push our ethical choices on dogs though. Dogs don't live by the morality that we do and naturally eat meat. Yes, they'll eat other foods but it's not optimal.

 

While I have toyed with the idea of being a vegetarian, I would not force that choice on my dog.

Love your "experiment"!

You know, I keep reading these stories about pets with this or that health issue that cleared up on a vegan diet. They're surprising ones, too, specifically digestive issues. Even UTIs, which makes me wonder about what we think we understand about them. More on that below.

 

As for forcing a vegetarian diet on my dogs, I'll just say again that I'm not doing anything to them that they don't enjoy. I just let them lick out the pot I prepared their dinner in, and you should have seen them, Brilly and Wabi both trying to stick their heads in at the same time, getting gloop on their eyebrows! Pushing and forcing are not happening in the sense of doing something against their will. I am choosing for them, like some choose to feed kibble, or canned, or even all meat. Again, it's important to be aware that you are choosing for your pets every bit as much as I am, based on your own beliefs (researched or assumed).

 

...{trimming because I had more than the allowable quote blocks, but lots of good points in here MerlinsMum}

 

This, sadly, is a point that cannot be emphasized enough. Dogs are not like cats, who are obligate carnivores. My vet is fully supportive of my efforts to transition my dogs to a vegan diet as long as I feed a balanced diet. The thing is, people tend to equate "balanced" with "meat-based", but this is a false equation - one that is based on a misunderstanding of the basic principles of nutrition.

 

Xan, I have nothing but admiration for your efforts to feed your animal companions a home-cooked diet. I have only tried kibble brands so far, as I am always rushing and never have time to do a thing, but since your efforts seem to have been so successful thus far, I'm inclined to ask, nay beg for details of the meal chart you came up with! I will give anything a go, and I'll just have to set aside more time, then that's what I'll do. The inconvenience that may cause to me is not comparable to the suffering endured by the 10 billion animals we slaughter for food (and that's just land animals) every year in the United States alone.

 

My dogs LOVE their veggies and their fruit. They whine if they don't get them with their meals. I add all sorts of stuff to their food.

 

Xan - this is a podcast Prof. Francione created a while ago on non-vegan cats. When I get home I'll dig out an old podcast by the VeganFreak folks during which they talked about how they transitioned their companions - I seem to recall that one of their cats is not vegan because he is prone to UTIs as it is and a vegan diet in male cats in that condition is not advisable.

Yes, cats, especially neutered male cats of the senior persuasion (like two of mine) need a diet low in carbs, high in protein, and of course all the other stuff in the right balance. A vegan diet might seem hard to get that right, and I have not started that area of research yet, but in my research for the dogs, I have repeatedly come across discussions of cats being successfully fed vegan diets, including those who were former sufferers of UTIs. I'm anxious to get more into this area.

Thanks for the podcast link. I'll check it out!

Email me, and I'll send you my spreadsheet.

 

Power brings with it a responsibility to use it wisely, which often means NOT using it just because we can and feel like it.

 

 

That's the Natural issue.

 

No, despite my deification, there is a definite difference between me immersing my pet goldfish in a large tank of water for several weeks and immersing my dog in one. One is "naturally" aquatic. the other fears lawn sprinklers. As a responsible God I try not to ignore the physiology of my worshippers.

 

Okay, what's next?

 

Only my sincere hope that this experiment turns out well for the pupper. Gods and doctors bury their mistakes

 

~D~

This feels like a pretty aggressive post. I'm wondering why it is you feel so ... angry? Do I strike you as being whimsical about this? Off-hand or shallow? Do I seem to be cavalier about the needs of my pets?

 

Read back. I know I certainly have written a LOT. Hopefully, you'll see that I take this very seriously. I have no intention, for instance, of making my dogs breathe under water, or even eat anything they can't digest. Okay?

 

I just wanted to throw in this bit from Natural Health for Pets, by Richard H. Pitcairn, D.V.M., Ph.D. & Susan Hubble Pitcairn. In a discussion about vegetarianism, he offers a long list of statistics showing the health benefits to humans. He asks himself,

Why these differences? For one thing, research indicates that meat fat favors the production of certain carcinogens in the intestines. But perhaps even more critical are the toxins that accumulate in animal tissues. The chemical pollution of breast milk in American women averages 35 times higher than that of complete vegetarians.

He then goes into a discussion of how a vegetarian diet for cats and dogs compares to a meat-centered diet.

Although the dog prefers meat, both is physiology and behavior indicate that it is better classes as an opportunistic omnivore - an animal that can meet its needs from a wide variety of sources. [...] In fact, a three-generation test found that dogs fed meat as a sole source of protein, along with other essential elements, had difficulties producing adequate milk for their young, as compared with dogs fed a diet that included milk and vegetables.

 

[...] Yet, such a diet may not be best for today's domesticated pets. Their needs may differ from those of their hunting ancestors who got more exercise, lived in purer environments and often, by necessity, fasted between large meals. Thus their bodies could cleanse themselves more easily, eliminating uric acid and other waste products of meat metabolism.

 

Our primary health concern about feeding meat to dogs and cats, however, is that meat is now the most polluted food source on the market. [...]

 

The long-term effect of all this toxic material - particularly the pesticides and heavy metals - may be increased cancer rates, allergies, infections, kidney and liver problems, irritabiity and hyperactivity for our pets.

His bottom line is not a resounding support for vegetarianism in dogs, but accepts it can be done. He's not thrilled about veganism. Cats he is even more skeptical about. This book, however, was published in 1995, and a lot of the research regarding animal nutrition I've found has been more recent.

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

I like your artwork!

Thanks!

 

OK, weighing in in support of Xan here. I travel a lot, and to a lot of places in the world where there are lots of "indigenous" dogs. They eat everything. They are as much predators as bald eagles are, also opportunistic feeders, or us for that matter. Which suggests that if we, opportunistic feeders, can be vegetarian, maybe dogs can also.

I am not vegan, though I live with a vegan (Xan). At home I eat vegetarian- no meat in the house, for health reasons. Xan's veganism doesn't threaten me in the least, and I am puzzled why it gets such heat here.

Hi Honey!

 

OK, weighing in in support of Xan here. ...

Welcome.

 

I don't think Xan's veganism is getting any heat, it's feeding a vegan diet to a dog, which is no doubt going to raise a lot of feathers. The 3 topics that should be avoided in polite conversation: religion, politics, & what you feed to your dog.

 

Xan, re: your response to my post, I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but again, I'm not holding what diet people feed to their dog against kibble or other processed dog foods. If I were, I already said that your choices here indicated much more research and effort than what most people who feed their dogs those diets do. But no, none of what you said addresses my ethical concern - I just don't agree with feeding an animal product free diet to an animal clearly designed to eat meat. My scale is based on what is ideal, not what is doable.

 

But like I said, that's just me. I'm not judging you, at all, really, I swear. The thing I dislike most about veganism in general is what Heather referred to as a fundamentalist attitude. I realize not all vegans are like that, but some are, and I really strive (probably not always successfully) to not appear the same way when sharing my opinions about food for both myself and my dog. Honestly, I wasn't going to chime in on this thread at all, just as I haven't on the vegan food thread in OT until I saw your poll, which I felt invited dissenting opinions, and then of course the "natural" argument.

 

I like your artwork!

Me too!

That's why I put the poll there! I like discussion. It can be a learning tool. Or at least a way of broadening one's perspective, which is like a catalyst that may act later.

 

You and I totally agree on the ethical scale: "My scale is based on what is ideal, not what is doable." Your ideal seems to be to feed the meat diet you feel your dogs evolved to eat. My ideal is to feed them a diet they will thrive on, which I hope to remove animal products from entirely. We're really not so far apart in our bottom line of wanting the best health for our pets. I'm just choosing to include the welfare of lots of other animals (including us humans) in the equation. It does complicate things for me, but I'm already such a complicate person!

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Round 2 *ding*

 

I think it's ridiculous and pure human ego to thrust your own personal world views on animals that nature has made predators (if you are unwilling to accept that dogs are hunters and meat eaters, there's really no point in further discussion. You can't discuss this topic with someone who is unwilling to suspend reality and insert their own fantasy world). Dogs eat meat. Dogs in Mexico and India aren't pets like US dogs are pets. Most are free-roaming street dogs and pretty much expected to fend for themselves. I promise you, they DO hunt. The ones who don't, probably die.

 

I think using a supplement takes it out of the realm of cruelty. But otherwise, I think it is cruel to essentially make a dog your prisoner (take away their ability to supplement their diet with species appropriate foods - MEAT) and feed them a vegan diet. JMO.

 

Veganism doesn't seem to me to be "lifestyle choice"... apparently it's really no different than any other fundamentalist religion that believes its adherents are 1) superior to everyone else and 2) they should force their world views on other people and animals because of believed superiority.

 

And now that I've indulged *my* ego to respond. Enjoy your day and good luck to your dogs. You've inspired me to give our crew some big meaty raw bones to gnaw on today.

Let's talk about these issues! I'm as willing to "suspend reality and insert {my} own fantasy world" as the next fundamentalist, that's for sure! Okay, I know that's not what you meant. You meant the other thing, the opposite. I get it. It's the playing god thing again. I hope I talked about that enough up there. I do understand what you're saying.

 

The vegetarian pets in India are as much a commercial niche as the meat-eaters here in the states. Breeders and serious pet-owners choose this for their pets to be consistent with their own beliefs (hey, just like you and me!), and for health reasons (again, just like you and me!) A quick google of "India +vegetarian pets" will turn up quite a lot. They don't die, they live happy, healthy lives. Look it up. I'm not trying to lie to you or make something up so I feel better: it's truly out there to find.

 

Dogs and cats are our prisoners. It's another way to look at our relationship. We're their gods. Their friends. Their guardians. Their prison keepers. We keep them locked up in houses, yards, on leashes. We only let them eat what we want them to. We make them sleep where we want them to. Some of us even keep them off the kitchen counters if you can believe that! You could even go so far as to say that the only reason they like us at all is because of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

Or, you could say that we're symbiotes. We mutually give and receive the best we can for each other given the environment we are all in together. That's a lot nicer picture, but it's really a matter of perspective. I'm going for symbiosis, myself.

 

Oh, and did you miss my Card-Carrying Vegan thread? I do, after all, have a 4 out of 5 eggplant superiority rating!

 

I think it quite odd to essentially have as a goal that one will avoid harming ruminants and herbivores who are naturally designed to be the prey of meat eating predators by feeding a diet that does violence to a companion animal dog. Amino acids are all the same chemically, but bioavailability differs, making amino acids sourced from different things essentially the same but not equal. The argument that kibble and canned foods are unnatural is hardly a good argument for feeding an even more unnatural diet to a carnivore.

 

And yes, as everyone here well knows, I feed prey model raw. When I started researching it, I hadn't touched a piece of meat, raw or otherwise, for over a decade. I have vegetarian and vegan friends that feed raw as well and had a very hard time in the beginning. I was creeped out when I first started feeding raw, but it was apparent that it was the most appropriate diet I could feed and that they thrived on it. None of mine were in less then very good condition when I started raw, so I really was caught off guard to see such improvement where I didn't think there could be much improvement in condition and coat. My hounds are my responsibility, and if I couldn't bring myself to put their biological needs and best interest above my own personal choices, I would leave the having of companion dogs to someone else, and just have herbivores.

 

That said, I don't think a vegan diet will kill a dog. I do think it causes complications and issues down the road, especially in an older dog. Really, they can survive on almost anything. Survival just isn't what I would aim for as a goal.

I respect how seriously you take your dogs' health and well-being. I feel just as dedicated to making choices for their best health.

 

You seem to be saying that domestic herbivores were designed by nature to live in pens, eat commercially prepared foods full of chemicals, and to walk calmly into abattoirs to be naturally shot or thumped in the head to be parted out by machine-wielding humans for various uses. I know that's not what you meant, exactly. I just can't be reassured by this argument that it's alright to sacrifice my fellow creatures. I just can't do it, or be responsible for it.

 

I'm not sure how this is doing violence to my pets. It's not like I'm sticking them in a restraint, tilting their heads back and forcing vegetables down their throats. (That reminds me of something ... oh, right. Fois gras!) They LIKE it. They haven't even FARTED since I started this process, and oh, believe me, that's an improvement! So, you can relax about that, alright? It's really okay!

 

I do respect someone who takes immediate responsibility for a meat-eating lifestyle, with respect for the life taken. I think that takes guts and a kind of honor, but also a disconnect with the owner of the life taken.

 

As to your statement about the bioavailability of nutrients, this had me concerned as well. It seems that as long as the food is broken up so there's time for the short digestive tract to get at the stuff, and perhaps with the help of some enzymes, this is not the issue I was worried it might be.

 

I already have these pets, and have had them, and cared for them, for many years (my oldest cat is 14, for instance, and still running around taking pot shots at humans and dogs alike! ). I'm not going to do anything to them to hurt them. It's going to be okay. I sacrifice a lot for my pets, and they in turn sacrifice for me, though they don't know it. They sacrifice running freely (until they get hit by cars), and hunting for their own food ('til they get too worm-ridden or beat up), and they don't get to breed, either. Luckily, they seem pretty happy to eat out of a bowl, sleep on the couch, and have the occasional air-hump. The life of a pet is a compromise. That really can't be sustainably denied, can it?

 

Older pets can certainly benefit from a vegan diet. Meat is hard to digest, though high in the nutrients that dogs need. I wish I'd known this a couple years ago when it might have helped Happy, with her IBD, but I've been reading that one veterinary treatment for IBD is a vegetarian diet, based on plant proteins, and that it has had great success.

 

Um ... wolves and dogs aren't even genetically the same. Related, yes. The same, no. ..... It's curious to me how few people ever do the kind of research Xan is doing relative to dietary needs, especially given the prevalence of osteosarcoma in the breed and the potential contribution of improper calcium:phosphorus balance.

Yes! Cancer seems to be much reduced in vegetarian pets. That's a major point of interest.

 

As a former vegan, how are you handling things like omega 3s? That was one of the reasons, I believe, that my vegan diet made me sick--the flax seed/flax seed oil just wasn't meeting my needs. Also, B12--are you finding a good vegan source, since the best source is from, well, you know what in meat? (not to gross out others) I believe I also ran into trouble in that my family absorbs the B complex particularly poorly from food, let alone supplements, so I would be leary of a diet that relies too heavily on supplements.

 

Based on my inability to find solid, academic studies demonstrating the general safety of feeding a dog a long term vegan diet, I opted not too. While I believe in minimizing animal cruelty, my first responsibility is to those I have chosen to bring into my life.

 

I do believe most Americans eat way too much protein, and thus probably have an inflated sense of how much protein our dogs need. But there are other issues beyond protein.

 

For the record, I voted that I think dogs (really I think most dogs) need meat, but Patrick probably averages 1 cup of raw vegetables or fruit per day, his choice, as treats.

How did you figure out your omegas were off? I never even heard of them before a few years ago, and I've been eating flax ever since, but I can't say I've noticed much of a difference I could pin to that specifically. What did you notice? How did your vegetarian diet make you sick?

 

I know what you mean about absorbing supplements, especially vit.s. I'm trying to include food sources as much as possible, which seems to be the best way, rather than pills. I'm reassured in that the diet does seem to work for those that try it, and work remarkably well. Better than just "well"; the animals seem to thrive, live long, and live healthy.

 

As for hard science, there is research, but it can be hard to find. UC Davis has done some, surveys across the variety of private homes feeding vegetarian/vegan diets have been done, other sources are available, and it does all seem to support that dogs (particularly, but cats too) can thrive on a vegan diet. Not just survive: thrive.

 

Interesting idea. I've toyed with the idea of going vegetarian for several years, because I'm just not liking meat much anymore & hate the thoughts of killing things. I'll be curious about how it all works out.

 

Not a door slam, Xan, but until you can convince me that canines did not evolve (or were created 6000 or so years ago) to be carnivores or have suddenly become herbivores, no thanks. It seems at best pointless and at worst unhealthy for the dog. Unless you propose that carnivory is inherently immoral, in which case all sorts of animals are deluded or evil beasts. Including whales. And I am fond of marine mammals.

Dave (unethical omnivore)

I hear you, truly! I'm not even going to try to suggest they "have suddenly become herbivores". They aren't herbivores. They're omnivores, similar to us (though more adapted to a primarily meat diet than we are). You can look it up, and you'll find quite a bit about dogs (and wild canids) adapting to a huge variety of food sources. You can see where humans have adapted to a nearly purely meat-based diet, and of course a purely vegan diet. It's our adaptability that makes us so ... ubiquitous!

 

Being a carnivore, or a meat-eating omnivore, CAN be immoral, for humans. I don't believe most animals are perverted in that way, but I believe humans in our culture have become perverted in their relationship to prey animals. It's a huge discussion, apparently (it seems simple to me: compassion, respect).

 

Oops, pardon me. Was it "wild relatives"? They don't eat just meat either. I seem to recall a study where wild canids in one location ate quite a few persimmons . But not kidding. The BARF/raw movement, including prey model, doesn't feed anything like the diet of a "wild relative." It probably shouldn't, but "wild relative" diet seems to be the rationale for feeding exclusively animals.

 

ETA: Apologies, Xan, that was waaaaaaay off topic. The point I wanted to make was that few people research what a dog's/cat's nutritional needs are. You seem to be doing that in a serious way.

Thanks. I'm trying!

 

The point about dogs' wild relatives and what they eat is really ON topic, in that it demonstrates (if you actually do look into the wide sea of literature) that canids are omnivores, and adapt their diet to what's available. If they can eat meat, they will. If they can't, they'll work it out or go somewhere else, but it's amazing how adaptable they truly are.

 

As you know, Xan.. I am working towards a vegan diet for myself.. but I don't think I would try to transition the dogs. The issue of where their meat comes from DOES bother me, so I appreciate the point of view that has brought you to this choice (as well as raising meat rabbits). Choo Choo has had (non-protein based) food issues since she came home to us, and I don't know that her system could handle a vegan diet.

This may seem counterintuitive to you, but maybe what Choo Choo needs IS a vegan diet. It could be. Like I said, I wish I'd known some of what I've recently discovered when Happy was alive. It would have given us another chance to give her a longer more comfortable life.

 

As for transitioning yourself and your pets, it's an evolving thing. I started as a vegetarian, swore I couldn't live without dairy, then got more and more aware and unhappy knowing that the dairy industry IS the meat industry. It's been a good many years, and I'm just now getting to the point of researching for my pets' transition. I wish I'd come along faster, looking back, but it just takes whatever time and process it takes.

 

BTW I would NEVER buy the HSUS food even if I was Vegan. I hate the HSUS with a passion, and their money grabbing, greedy, twisted view on pet ownership enrages me.

 

For the record, I don't think Xan seems preachy or forceful or self righteous at all

Thanks!

The HSUS food isn't vegan, anyway. The Vit. D they use is animal-based, so using it is not on the table.

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

What a juicy discussion! Love it.

I'm going to respond in stages here, because people brought up lots of important points I want to respond to.

Ok, so I am curious. I have heard this done successfully for dogs, but I thought cats were obligate carnivores and couldn't be switched to a meat free diet?

 

I admit I don't know a ton about this topic. I did the research once because I had a cat that died of a taurine deficiency (due to a metabolic issue not a diet issue) and it's scary because I didn't know he was sick until it was too late

 

Oh, and for the poll - no interest in vegan dieting for me or any of the animals here. Not judging, just my choice.

Cats are what's known as obligate carnivores, yes. That said, the same is true for them: nutrition is available in other sources that will meet the needs of even obligate carnivores. Their diet is rather more particular, and I'm holding off on that 'til I can devote another learning curve to sorting that out.

 

And I see I forgot to respond to the "it's not natural" response....

Gah! I was just going to stay out of this one until you brought this up.

 

1. The fact that other people choose other non-natural diets isn't an argument for feeding a vegan diet.

 

2. Dogs are physiologically the same as their wild relatives. They haven't been eating processed foods long enough to have evolved significantly in that regard. The fact that in order for your vegan diet to be available to them you have to cook it (not natural) or process it to a pulp (not natural) or use supplements (not natural) is good evidence of that.

 

Having cleared those things up I don't care what you do and I won't be critical of you. I suppose I have an ethical issue with people feeding what I consider a grossly inappropriate diet to animals they've chosen to have as pets knowing their dietary needs, but I realize not everyone is going to agree with me (why they don't I'm still trying to figure out ). Not to mention that you've put more thought into your dogs' diet than hordes of pet owners ever will and you're doing this totally insane thing in the most sane, well thought out way possible.

Heya! We meet again over this topic, eh?

My DH said this morning that there's a "playing god" aspect to this, and I agree. Is that sort of your point? We ARE gods to our pets, in that we have such elemental control over every important aspect of their lives. What we choose to feed them, whatever that is, is what WE choose to feed them. Unless they're out hunting on their own, it won't be any other way. Okay, we've established we're gods. Some gods choose to feed their pets what comes in a bag (as I have all these years), with or without supplements (like fish oil, beet pulp, canned food, glucosamine, whatever), with or without a concern for what might be lurking in the food. I know I'm not alone here that I watch their poop, their weight, their coats, eyes, ears, teeth, noses, smell their paws, their breath, their very farts as I keep track of how what I feed them nourishes or does not nourish their total health. If something is off or plain wrong, I change, add, subtract, until I get it as right as I can for them. GT is FULL of discussions about this, about the nitty details of how the food we feed them works or doesn't work, and what we do about it. In other words, it's not their choice: we choose to feed them, and what we choose is not natural for them (again, with the possible exception of the raw-feeders). That's the Natural issue.

 

As for "grossly inappropriate diet", please, I totally understand what you're saying. I do however feel that commercial diets are a big compromise for everyone, which means everyone pays more than they want (in health, ecological terms, and pure dollars) and gets less than they want (nutrition, freshness, health, security, safety, ethical comfort ...). If I can prepare a diet at home that I can control much better, that is lower on the food chain with all that implies for the planet, that is fresh, that agrees with my pets (in that they like it), and that keeps them healthy (the bottom line), then that seems to me to be the appropriate diet.

 

Does that address your ethical concerns?

Here's a good article from *Whole Dog Journal* about this very subject.

 

Here's another one, this one more specifically addressing a vegeterian dog food currently being sold by the HSUS.

 

I'm sure Xan has probably already read these. I just thought I'd share the links for discussion and informational purposes.

The first article (which I just read, though the elements I've found elsewhere as well) is pretty good. It does discuss the controversy, though it pretty summarily dismisses the possibility of feeding cats a vegan diet.

 

wow, I was hoping that this would come up at some point.

 

Im a vegan, but only started a few months ago, so Ive been feeling very hesitant about feeding my animals this diet, but also very unhappy with the selection of dog food on the market.

 

There is a food available in Australia (where I am) called Vegan pet which claims to be a complete balanced food which comes in cat and dog varieties. I bought a small bag for Sophie and she really liked it. I dont think it was outrageously expensive when calculated agains a food like Artemis which I planned to start feeding Sophie when her current bag of food is finished.

 

As an ethical vegan I hate thinking about the ground up offal that I currently feed my pets. However I have been worried about the long term effects of removing all meat from Sophies diet (and the cats!). I guess Im afraid that I wont really see the long term results until it may be too late- if that makes sense.

 

I would definately been interested in your spreadsheet and chatting to you about how its going. I would desperately love for my pets to also have a cruelty free diet that is safe for them. Im not sure if you can PM me due to my lack of posts but will happily give you my email address its not too much trouble for you.

 

Thanks for posting about this!

I'll try emailing you through the system, if that works.

 

Your fear was mine as well, but the research I'm doing is putting that to rest pretty much. Research that shows that vegetarian, and especially vegan dogs (and especially those consuming NO soy products) can and do live long and healthier lives than their meat-eating brothers and sisters is encouraging. That is what I want for my pets, for sure!

 

Okay, what's next?

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Xan, if eating raw veggies and even some cooked ones gives me extra gas, how would that relate to increased chances of bloat in a deep-chested dog?

 

Also it seems like I recall Dr Cuoto (or perhaps someone else) making a statement that while veggies added to regular meal are fine as a filler, dogs do not absorb the nutritional benefit from them unless the veggies are crushed.

 

Are your veggies cooked or raw or both?

 

Just curious but won't try it here. I barely eat enough veggies myself.

Good points, every one!

I've been a vegan for most of my life, but eating *too much* raw veggies will put me in some serious distress, so I've been watching carefully. I think the enzymes I'm adding must make a big difference, helping to digest the vegetable matter more fully. I have been pureeing the veg (mostly cooked, so far, but some raw) and the protein too (beans, lentils, peas, quinoa), because it seems sensible, given the short digestive tract of dogs, and, of course, those TEETH! They're not much good at pulverizing leafy greens, for instance. As for bloat, I helplessly watched a dog die of bloat (though I didn't know what it was at the time, isolated in a very rural area), and anything I can do to avoid it, oh, you bet I will!

 

I think the bottom line is that it is incredibly obvious, at least to me, that you're approaching this from a viewpoint of love for animals, including YOUR dogs and other animals also. You're also educated and educating yourself on the topic, and you're not so set on it that you would let your dogs' health decline. At the end of the day, I would say most dogs should be so lucky.

 

And no, I don't spend near that much time thinking about what *I* eat either

Thanks!

I don't spend nearly that kind of time thinking about MY food, either! Anymore, that is. I did spend some time figuring out the nutrition at first, though. What I'm learning is that, like for humans, as long as you get pretty close most of the time, and cover the essentials over the short term, it really isn't like a chemistry test!

 

Which is sort of a good point to think about. Why are we SO worried about each milligram of this or that nutrient in each bite of food our dogs eat, when most of us will happily eat food we KNOW is stupid, and somehow manage to stay alive, blowing off attempts to draw our attention to our bad eating habits?

[Desperate - Please Help]

I can hear how close to the end of your rope you're getting with this.

 

I'd like to second the D.A.P. suggestion but maybe use a collar, so it's with him whatever room he's in. That might help if the problem is actually anxiety.

 

I also agree that the food might not be working for him, for whatever reason (too high in fiber, just too much volume, change in formula that you don't know about, a growing intolerance to certain ingredients ...).

 

It's also good advice to have your vet check the stool, and maybe look into neurological issues.

 

I'd also like to add my vote to getting more exercise. If your dog likes to chase or play with toys, you might be able to squeeze in a lot of exercise into a short amount of time by using a lure pole. You can make one pretty cheaply with plastic plumbing pipe (from any hardware or Lowe's or Home Depot like store), a bit of rope, and a toy. Only one of mine will play with it, but he's the one that needs it! Maybe your guy would like that. You could put in about 5 or maybe 10 minutes (seriously, that's all!) before you go out, and he'll be happy and flapped out.

 

It feels like you're pretty set on the idea that training can't work. I understand your reluctance to add to what sounds like a tight schedule already, but it doesn't cost anything, and it might save your dog, your sanity, or your marriage (and certainly your rugs!) Trying the crate once is just that. Crate training is more involved, but is more likely to succeed. Same with alone-training.

 

It's important for him not to keep repeating this unwanted behavior. It just gets easier and more familiar, and harder to turn around, as time goes on. ANYthing you can do to manage it while you work out what's wrong and what to do about it, whether that means having someone stay with him when you go to work, or take him with you, or take him to a friend's or family member's house, or even to a doggy day-care, it will be worth it in the long run!

 

I wish you the best of luck with this awful situation.

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

Pam, yes, you can get taurine to add to the food (synthetic, I think, but not animal anyway). The VegePet supplements for cats have all the covered, too, including the calcium/phosphorous balance issue, which had me a bit worried. The only thing else I'd want to supplement is l-carnitine for the dogs. I found it in bulk for not TOO much, and it only takes such a weee amount, so not so bad. It's a little controversial, but seems indicated for large, deep-chested dogs, which means greyhounds, so in it goes.

 

Thanks, FDOM. Yes, I'll be watching like a hawk for any signs of dis-ease or distress or even simple displeasure! I'll adjust as necessary on an individual basis (as I have all along anyway), and we'll see how it goes!

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

I expect to get at least a few of those "door slamming closed" kinds of responses. It is a mind-bender, especially for most Americans, with their protein obsession, particularly.

 

And I see I forgot to respond to the "it's not natural" response. In a nut-shell, neither is kibble or canned food. Now, you raw-feeders have some cred (even though I could never do it myself), but dogs are not wolves or coyotes or foxes, though they are very close. Like we are to gorillas and chimps. They've evolved along with us to eat whatever's handy, whatever we throw their way or drop where they can get it. They continue to evolve with us, as we evolve. That's natural.

 

I don't spend that much time figuring out what to feed myself! What you suggest is just nuts.

Well, hm. I suppose it's not the first time someone has said that about my ideas! But, I hear you about all the figuring! Like I said, I'm still in learning curve land, but I expect once that's assimilated, it will be as simple as being a vegan is for me now.

 

My grandmother has done it for years with all her dogs. Best of luck! I am hoping you are vegan as well or that is just silly. I use cheese as treats so there is no way I could do it with Magnum.

Good on yer grandma! Hey, have you tried Magnum on bits of apple or carrot? Mine will do somersaults for them (well, okay, not somersaults, but everything in their repertoire!)

[Feeding My Dogs A Vegan Diet]

I've spent many many hours (okay, days!) working out how to feed the dogs vegan home-cooked meals in the last few weeks, inspired by Deanna's meat-bunnies thread (thanks for the push, D! )

 

Research, spreadsheets, calculators, joined a Yahoo group, bought a book (wish I'd bought a different one ), downloaded a bunch of .pdfs, made head-dents on the computer screen .... It's amazing how little, really, is readily available in terms of simple recipes! There's the AAFCO nutritional requirements, and lots of nutritional and health info out there (much of which seems conflicting!)

 

Finally, based on lots of suggestions from people who've fed their companion animals vegan for many years with fabulous success, and my own research, I've come up with a spreadsheet to help me calculate soy- and corn-free recipes for my 3 dogs. I've got 6 in there so far.

 

*WHEW!*

 

If any of you want to share the spreadsheet, I'll send it to you, but you'll have to dink around with the input for your dog's or dogs' weights.

****DISCLAIMER: I am not a nutritionist, and there may still be some math mistakes ('cause I'm hopeless at math!), though I've spent nearly as much time working on the numbers as on the ingredients.

 

I'm using Vegedog supplements to make sure I get the important stuff covered, but lots of folks make do without. I've read in a few places that many/most dogs in some countries (India, Mexico)are never fed meat, but eat the same vegetable-based food that their owners eat (though they may scavenge or hunt on their own), and live and prosper that way.

 

I've been transitioning my three over the last several days, with nary an extra toot. Everyone slurps up whatever they find in their bowls and leaves them shining. No Big D, no gas, no complaints. They're still on about 1/3 regular kibble, because I'm too cheap to not use it up.

 

Cooking time is still a little high, since I'm still very much in the learning and experimenting zone. For instance, I've just started sprouting, with varying success (lentils and quinoa: good. Pintos, garbanzos and rice: no success, or not yet, anyway). The hubby and I have eaten well by sharing the basic meal with the dogs, but adding seasonings (onions, garlic, extra herbs and salt, etc.) separately, so the cooking has benefitted us all.

 

So far, I'd say a huge success.

 

Kitties, you're next!

 

The Whys, so you don't have to ask:

1. Ethics I'm an ethical vegan, because I want to do NO harm to my fellow animals. That's a high goal, and impossible to achieve, but it's a goal worth coming as close to as possible. Having companion animals for whom I'm responsible who eat meat makes me responsible for the meat they eat. In MY case, and for MY pets, that means that getting closer to the No Harm goal is to feed them no animals.

 

2. Nutrition and Health As long as my pets have a human to chew (grind up) and cook their food for them, it doesn't matter where their nutrients come from. Amino acids are the same no matter where they grew. Same for vitamins, etc.. If I'm in control of the quality of their food sources, we're a lot less likely to run into spoilage or contaminant issues than we would be with commercial pet foods, or even a raw-meat-type diet. Their food will be fresher, that's for sure, than when I get the 40 lb. bag of kibble from CostCo!

 

I've also read great things about dogs (and cats, for that matter) having huge improvements in skin conditions, gorgeous fur, good weight, curing of various chronic ailments, that kind of thing. My crew are pretty healthy, but Brilly's fur could be nicer, and two of my old cats have had urinary issues, and one is looking decidedly scruffy.

3. Aesthetics and food safety Once the transition is complete, I won't have to ever be grossed out by, or worried about the pets' food splashing or coming in contact with any of our food. I won't have to keep separate sponges and scrubbers just to clean their stuff and the counter I prepare their food on. I can lick my fingers when I make their dinner! I'm looking forward to that like you wouldn't believe! (The not worrying part, that is. I'm not THAT into licking my fingers when filling dog bowls! )

 

4. Economics Not so sure how this will work out, yet. The supplements are expensive to start, but the main ingredients are pretty cheap, so hopefully it will even out. As I get more confident, I will probably not worry so much about the Vegedog supplements, which will definitely bring the price down.

[Brookie]

I can feel your pain from here. And your love! I hope your heart can find some peace soon remembering the love you shared and the laughs as well as the struggles.

 

:bighug

[Charlie Is Home (Note: One Graphic Pic)]

Wow. Would you look at that! He looks so happy and relaxed! He's probably thrilled to be home, too.

Here's hoping everything goes smooooooooth as siiiiiiiiiilk from here on out!

[Ryan]

Say not in grief, "he is no more," but live in thankfulness that he was. ~ Hebrew proverb

I love this thought. It's harder to do, but so so good to remember and aspire to.

:bighug

[Thank You Petzlife Spray]

Good stuff.

 

Brilly, at age 8, with daily toothbrushing since age 2, has already lost his little lower incisors, and it's a pretty good bet the top ones will be going next, as the gums are very receded. Wabi is so compromised, and already went into arrest under anaesthesia once, I really don't want to put her under if I don't have to. Pogo's teeth are kind of jumbled because of his facial deformities, so there's some tight, hard to clean areas in his mouth, too. I've tried various other products in addition to daily brushing, with no results at all. I'm hoping hard for this stuff!

 

How does the refill come? Is it just not in a squeeze bottle or something?

[Thank You Petzlife Spray]

I'm just starting to try the gel. For those of you that had good results with it, did you manage to get 1/2 - 1 teaspoon into their mouths, really? I just measured it out, then used a toothbrush to scoop it up and work it onto their teeth (though they're accustomed to toothbrushing, they didn't like this much! ), but it's goopy and soft. I had a hard time getting nearly that much going.

[Our Luck Ran Out]

Just seeing this, and wanted to add my heartfelt sympathy, and wishes for a speedy recovery, and a long life!

 

Any news?

[Anubis Has An Osteosarcoma]

Augh! Another one! I'm so sorry for you both. I hope your time together is filled with love and smiles, and the end far off and gentle for you both.

[Charlie's Has Bone Cancer]

I'm so sorry!!

Sending out boatloads of get-better-forever-quick thoughts, and calm thoughts for you and your wife!

[Contemplating New Sleeping Arrangements]

What changed? Something. Maybe something subtle, that wouldn't really stand out to you, but is making a difference to him? Maybe he ate something and wasn't feeling well?

 

You're going to have a bit of an uphill battle now, sadly, since the strongest reinforcement is the intermittent reward, which he's just earned. It's a real dilemma, living in a condo like you do. I wish I could suggest some kind of sound-proofing! Maybe a few sleeping bags thrown over the crate??