KickReturn

No one should be upset. A little conflict is useful. Focus on the facts and ignore the emotion. We are all quite responsible owners I'm sure. Maybe even me too. I will do my best to get a video of Hester walking within 8 to 10 feet of a deer (or two or three). It may take me a week or so but if I remember my camera I should be able to get something. The only wrinkle is it is Spring and all the babies have just been born. Also some huge bucks have come up into the neighbourhood. We'll see how that effects things. If I get good footage you guys will be amazed. And remember this is the same dog that has run with the deer in the past. He ignores them now because I ignore them. He is like that famous Cattle Dog, Skid Boot. Look it up on youtube. The dog copies everything its owner does. Oh and Hester's racing name?....Skidbootsahoot (Kiowa Sweet Trey x Sly Jill).

More good stuff above for owners to think about. (Except the bit about professionals not needing fences if Greyhounds were trustworthy - that's just silly. We may have one or two mature, closely supervised pets, while breeders have dozens of unruly, unsupervised adolescent dogs.) While Hester is an off leash hiker, I wouldn't even think of it if he was the sort of dog to run or even leave the trail in a forest environment. We have unbelievable blackberry bushes here that could seriously damage a Greyhound. But Hester has these managed as well. I have watched him stop on a trail and wait for me to move a blackberry cane that was in his way before he would proceed. The big fellow simply ticks all the boxes. He is much less likely to be injured on our hikes than when he is running in a secure area, something most of us allow our dogs to do. The number one place for injury seems to be in people's yards or homes from the stories on this forum I do appologize if I appear to have glorified the off leash experience. On the contrary I was hoping to discourage anyone whose dog did not display the somewaht anomolous behaviour that Hester possesses from taking a chance. Tomorrow I will take Hester to a beach to run with his girlfriend. It is completely secure. No chance for escape. However I fear this most as there is a chance he could step on a stone or shell while running. Is it irresponsible to let him have this experience? I do feel torn because I feel every ache an pain that he endures. I have to make the same types of decisions for my children. We like to ski, lots of risk. We want to go helicopter skiing. More risk. It so hard to say where the line is between living a great life and going to far.

And that's why this thread is a good one. We need to hear it all, the good and the bad. And as above, our hurt feelings shouldn't even register when we are talking about the physical well being of a living creature. And so the readers here know, I do not have Hester off leash when he is exposed to traffic. The videos I posted are the exception used to show his extreme behaviour. The first video is in a sports field. In the particular area shown in the second video it is not possible for a vehicle to travel any faster than a crawl (hairpin turn, top of a 20% hill with two huge speed bumps). And the stretch of road in the recall segment has no traffic at the particular time of day. The majority of our walks on on trails, beaches, in parks, etc. Once Hester did get lost but it was in our house. He couldn't find me and he cried. I was in a laundry room in a different section of the house. I called to him but he couldn't figure out I was up one level (split level house). He was oh so sweet in his sadness. When he figured it out we had a happy reunion on the stairs.

Yes we have the standard leash laws although ours reads more about dogs running at large. The community here is unusual. Probably half the dogs we encounter are off leash. Very rare to run into anything but well mannered dogs and owners. On two occasion the animal control officer in our area has encountered Hester and his only reaction was to fall in love with him immediately and talk about all the different animals he has rescued that now live with him. My only other contact with this officer was when I reported a neighbour's dog that has never been walked in the four years I lived here. The officer spent 2 hours at their house speaking with them. (But they still don't walk their damn dog!! Poor fella)

Not that much flaming or judging - just opinions and strong feelings and it is important to share these. To lock this thread would be a disservice - the contents will likely save a Greyhound's life one day. The arguments against off leash are very strong, and some new owner likely will be discouraged from taking a chance. And if they do take that risk their is info here that is very useful.

OK so here is some video. But first a disclaimer. I live in an area with very little traffic that moves very slowly. The place and time have been chosen carefully. Remember I am not a professional, to the extent that I have any method, I just made it up – please don’t try this at home. Conditions were difficult - too windy, which made it difficult for me to hear his movements so I had to keep looking back. The first is a demonstration of Hester’s attachment and simple preference to be close to me. He did this exact thing the first time I ever let him off leash. It was on a huge, secure beach with dozens of dogs and even another Greyhound running around. He does this in the house also. Absolutely no training to reinforce this behaviour Next we have Hester on the sidewalk. Note that he hugs the edge away from the road. No deer or rabbits on this walk but we normally pass something on each walk and the behaviour doesn’t change. He will look at them and then look away. The animals do not flee. Occasionally the deer will follow us home which is downright strange. Notice two things; when he falls slightly behind he breaks into a trot to catch up and when he does stray toward the road he moves back when a car approaches. This also has not been trained. Note as well that before we cross the road I turn and he places his head in my hand for a chin rub. No treat is given. Whenever I turn to face him he always slows down and comes to me in this way with no other command. Whenever we come to a cross road he immediately slows down and looks for his chin rub. We always cross roads in a trot to give a sense of urgency. And finally recall. With his second favorite person (my wife) filming from up the street, Hester knew something was up. He got a bit frisky and started to scamper toward my wife. I called – his response is impressive despite the fact he is excited to run to my wife. I reward with a treat. I often (but not always) reward with a treat when recall involves him breaking off some other activity. There was initial recall training involving treats but now it's only used when needed. If your Greyhound behaves like this than maybe under the right circumstances being off leash would enhance their life. And last I would like to apologize to the OP for the total thread hijack

My agreement included no such clause that I recall. Not sure what I would do if it did. I prefer to honour all my agreements but one must be reasonable. With 99.9 percent of dogs it wouldn't be an issue. With Hester I believe I am doing what is best for him all things considered including off leash risk. He is having an unbelievably happy life and his off leash adventures are a big part of it. One day I'll write about the day he "asked" to walk without his leash. Sometimes I really think he is a man inside a dog suit. And I don't mind being judged or flamed, It's kind of fun.

My guess is the majority of lost Greys are the result of an open door or gate, or some slip their collars. Any Grey that a responsible owner would even consider having off leash in an unfenced area is the sort of dog who would approach the first people or dogs that it sees. The dog would not be "lost" for very long. A call for help from the adoption orgs would not likely be necessary. Despite Hester's overiding desire to be with me, I am not naive, there is always some risk and he could always do something uncharacteristic. I can say In my travels with him he has demonstrated off leash behaviour and reliability on a par with well trained examples of any other breed. But hey, you can even have a problem with your perfectly trained Border Collie. There is no guarantee and I would urge extreme caution and discourage most owners from even considering the off leash thing.

I don't think we disagree - When I use the term character I mean exactly instinct and drive. It is his character that causes him to respond to me instantly and reliably. Not because I am a masterful trainer. I have not taught him what a toss of my head means. I just adopted that body language when I noticed him do it to signal a preference of direction. If I toss my head left, he goes left, right and he goes right. Same with a wave of the hand or the various grunts I use to express approval or disapproval. He simply gets it and responding seems to be his priority. Interestingly if something makes me anxious, he picks up on it and clings even closer. At a recent Grey picnic a number of verteran Grey owners were shocked when I called him out of a full chase involving at least a dozen dogs by simply uttering his name. He spent the rest of the picnic at a perfect heel whenever I moved. Yesterday he chose to cross a street to avoid a bunny on a lawn because I gave a gentle uh uh when he spotted it. It is just him and I recognize he is very unusual. When I am responsible for other Greys they are always always leashed. I have yet to meet another Grey I would even think about trusting in the same way. I will try to get some video of him walking past rabbits and deer and post.

Many good points here. And all owners should read and carefully ponder what 3greytjoys has written on page two of this thread. If any of the gloom and doom scenarios seem like a reasonable possibility or makes you uncomfortable than you have your answer. As the owner of a nearly exclusively off-leash Greyhound I realize I sound completely hypocritical. Those of you who have seen posts of my Hester’s adventures, have probably noticed that he is never on a leash. But Hester is one of those dogs that is like the duckling that hatches and imprints/bonds to the first thing it sees – in this case me. I have yet to meet another Grey with the same level of obsession over its person and sensibility when making decisions for himself. My contribution to this topic will be to suggest that in the decision to let a Grey off leash, the character of the dog is the most important factor, followed by the safety of the environment, with training further down the list. Ultimately the time will come when the dog does not or cannot respond to your training and it is then that you will have to count on its own character and decision making instead of yours. If you are considering the off leash experience, please ponder some of the following questions: (I realize most of these questions can only be answered once the dog is observed off leash, so some safe experimentation is required.) Does your dog always stay on a trail? Even if it sees a squirrel bolt into the woods? Does your dog refuse to let you out of its sight? Is your dog sensible? Will he refuse to run if the ground is uneven or the surface to hard, rocky, slippery, full of sticks, bushes, trees? Does he refuse to run on a paved surface? Can you call your dog out of mid-run with other Greyhounds? Can you call your dog out of a rush toward a rabbit or squirrel? Is your dog content to ignore a rabbit or squirrel? Does he prefer the sidewalk to the road? The edge of a lawn to the sidewalk? I believe character is the issue from my experience with Hester. I can answer yes to all of the above questions and Hester has received essentially zero training other than a bit of recall early on. It’s him, not me that makes the difference. To answer the original question, when do you know if your dog can handle being off leash, my advice is simply to find a huge but secure area (beaches are good but don’t offer a variety of terrain) and watch your dogs behaviour. If it never leaves your side or seems to worry if it gets too far away from you, you may have an off leash candidate. When you dog does run, does it run around you? Ends its runs at your side? These are also things to consider.

Hester rushes toward black people and grey haired ladies stepping out of minivans who smoke. Perhaps the attendants at his kennel were black - he was in Florida. As for the Greyhaired ladies, who knows, maybe a kindly foster who smoked. Interestingly as time has passed these behaviours have moderated and now he wants to greet anyone that looks at him. The exception and the only negative reaction toward people is that he will avoid anyone obese. This behaviour is consistent and applies to men or women, even when they reach out and try to say hello. He will just duck their hand and scoot past them. A bit embarrassing after these same people have watched him lavish affection on everyone else in the vicinity.

Thank you for stopping the crate - never crate a dog that fights to get out. (you didn't say how long she has been with you.) Use the muzzle to protect your house (and your dog). Research how to manage SA as suggested by others here. Your problem isn't farting, it is SA. BTW a raw diet will stop the gas attack. Also, the more walking you can do before you leave her, the better she will do. A couple of zoomies and a 30 minute walk is simply not enough for some dogs. My incredibly clingy boy waits impatiently for me to leave after his lengthy (up to two hours) morning walk so he can have a decent nap. (He has trouble napping when I am home because he has to keep an eye on me just in case I should move.) I realize most owners cannot walk this much but do as much as you can - it will help.

Hester's most typical interaction is none at all - he just cruises past other dogs with hardly a glance. But for my liking, indeed he is too assertive too often when he does interact with other dogs. He is also a bit on the fun police side when it comes to running/playing with other dogs. I assume it all fits together somehow. Regarding the insecurity, maybe a certain level insecurity is what drives the "dominance" behaviours. Maybe it is not possble to rise to dominance without the appropriate insecurity as a motivator. The need to make sure that other dogs are "OK", not a threat, etc. The last few days Hester has had dozens of greetings with every sort of dog. The variety of his reactions is vast. There are definitely a few main types but with so many variations. We spent the last few days with his girlfriend so I could not shoot video of greetings. It was fascinating to see the contrast to this other Greyhound. She always did the same thing, very sweet, ears down, playful, trying to make "friends". He was mostly any angel but when he did give warnings right off, he was dead on - each of the dogs that he took exception to became obnoxious as they began to play with his girlfriend. In one case she had to really show some teeth to get rid of a Lab that was determined to wrestle with her after what had started as a balanced game of tag. Of course I called Hester out of any interactions that started with warnings and had him stand beside me while his girlfiend took over. But now I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to let him manage the situation.

My big fellow Hester has a minor toe issue. He has always been a bit splayed (3 years of at the track will do that to a guy), but recently I notice his front left outside toe was sticking out to the side further than usual. Upon closer inspection I notice the toe wasn't as "knuckled up" as the others or like the outside toe on his right foot. Watching him walk from the side he almost looks flat footed: the second knuckle flatens down and the last section of toe with the nail hinges up as his foot rolls through the stride. I have examined the toe, twisted it, flexed it in every direction and he seems totally fine with it. No swelling, or dislocation. Am I correct that this is something to ignore? (He sure looks a bit nerdy with his wonky toe.) Photos: Weighted (he is rolled to the inside which exagerates things a bit) Unweighted and looking pretty normal Sideshot, normal looking : Sorry couldn't do a weighted sideshot as he is down now after a long walk. (To complicate matters he has been limping for a few days - definitely protecting his left front leg. But I don't think the toe is the cause. I believe he has a shoulder injury of some sort incurred during a run. I was able to elicit a pain response when probing deeply where the omotransverse meets the left deltoid. He limps first thing in the morning and when he begins moving but it gets less as he warms up. Still goes up and down stairs without complaint so I assume he is not in too much pain. He is 7.5 years old BTW.)

10 Chihuahuas Are you planning on getting a Grey? That would be some Grey to handle that scene. FWIW my Grey is pals with a demon Chihuahua. Here he is:

Well, he doesn't "fall apart", apparently just a bit more stern with other dogs. I think there is so much more to his greeting complexities. And I still don't think he is insecure. There have been way to many situations that would have that would have caused an insecure dog to react, but where he has barely shown any reaction. Today was a classic example. A Husky cross started barking as soon as it saw him, ran over to say hello to me and Hester - the whole time barking its head off. Hester walked over to the Husky sniffed it, walked over to the owner to say hello, back to the Husky for some more sniffing, peed, and than on his merry way. The Husky spent the whole time alternating between barking and stuffing his nose in Hester's business. No growl from Hester, no ears up, or stiff posture. This type reaction is every bit as common as the other types. Would love to know what that boy is thinking. I wonder if what I am calling the "proud" approach that he uses is actually his way of expressing excitement and happiness about greeting other dogs. Perhaps it is a bit unusual and this may be what throws off some other dogs. Interestingly he uses the same body language when he approaches people he is happy to see and when he is inviting dogs that he knows to play (which really means you run and I'll chase you). The alert, poised posture also makes sense from a survival perspective - he is "ready" if things go badly. Not a surprising genetic trait. I am also gianing some insight into his warnings to other dogs. I have noticed by watching some of the greetings that I have recorded in slow motion, that when he greets he gives a quick deflection of his head away from the other dog. Then he quickly checks back to see if the other dog does the same. If the other dog does not look away or continues to follow him with its muzzle pointed at his head, he will then give a little warning grumble or at worst confront the dog and demand that it back off. Fortunately the latter occurance is becoming quite rare.

double post

That is a very interesting idea. He does check on my location every minute or so. But on-the-other-hand he doesn't seem to care if I greet other dogs.We also have Greyhound sleepovers regularely and his girlfriend sleeps on the bed with me (only dog in the world allowed on my bed) while Hester wouldn't even think of it and seems unbothered by it. Sometimes the visiting dogs will crawl into my lap and Hester doesn't seem to care. Also he is apparently worse when I am not around. On the occasions where other members of the family he is apparently a bit rougher during greetings. I say occasions because he mostly refuses to walk with others (a problem to be discussed in another thread).

JJNg, I did get the full picture of the sample in the Semenova study/paper. Yes 5 dogs of her own, 3 visitors and lots of encounters on the street, etc. And dogs in a shelter cannot be expected to be a useful model for our settled pets. The whole thing is just very uncontrolled as is the environment - to the extent that it undermines findings. Even her presence badly polutes any data. And yes Mckeon's observations are purely seat of the pants with no academic rigor but he is observing a much more natural pack setting. This may have some value if we are wondering about whether a social hierarchy can exist among dogs. But again I wouldn't bet my life on Mckeon's views either. (I do admit to romanticising the view of the "oldtimer".) Ultimately, as one who has read far too many academic papers, I would have great reservations about drawing any firm conclusions from the Semenova paper. That is not to say it is without some very interesting observations. One that caught my attention is that not all dogs use the same body language to signal a particular emotion/response. Rather dogs are able to learn the each others pecularities. Explains why first greetings are likely the most difficult. Perhaps the biggest problem with the paper is that it gives the strong impression of someone who was very upset with owner's forcing their dogs to submit to them (a' la Cesar Milan), or otherwise being abusive and believing they were doing the proper thing, and set out to find evidence that would argue against this. The paper exudes overwhelming bias - not cool in academic circles. (But is is great that she is working as an animal welfare inspector.) As for Hester, what I have done is simply let him know I am there. I just repeat his name a time or two just before encounters and he is more relaxed (in the past I waited until encounters has begun before I intervened). Since he bonded to me (crazy over the top), he has been extremely responsive to any movement or sound I make. I don't even have to use his name. If I just grunt or give some little sound with the appropriate tone he seems to get what I want from him. Even a wave of the hand or a toss of my head often works. He is extremely compliant and sensible. He has never heard the word no from us. As a bonus, he is also toning it down with the dogs that deserve a serious telling off. He will still snarl but he won't face them down and scare the crap out them as he did in the past. I am being careful not to intervene too much as he seems to know better than I what behaviour is best in any situation. I will post more videos when I get a chance. There seem to be so many different types of encounters. I really want to capture his reaction to a dog that won't look away from him. That's where you experienced owners will be able to determine if he is over-reacting. (Or I am over-reacting lol.)

Didn't read it all but I will give you what I learned in the first week of Greyhound ownership. Some Greyhounds must sleep where they can see their people. For some this is something you cannot fight. No alternative is possible.

Here is a video of Hester's improved greeting technique. He still comes in very proud, ears erect, tail quite high, but he seems less concerned about being in control. This is fairly typical - represents perhaps 95 percent of all interactions. The others include a big bounding hello with a gallop past the other dog and the odd one is of the more assertive "get out of my face" type. Sorry for the shaky video - I watch the dogs when I do this and not the camera. Hopefully I can capture the more assertive type of greeting. That should be more interesting.

That would be great. And that is but one problem with the Semenova paper as far as we are concerned - that it has nothing to do with the upbringing and life of the racing Greyhound. As for the sample size in her study...5 dogs?? that belong to her?? in her house?? Not to mention the paper reads more like a political treatise than proper academic work. And to top it off what ever quality findings exist in the paper are at times badly clouded by some of the most cumbersome academic writing I have encountered. And at other times the paper reads like a dog sitter talking about what her pack and the dogs she was sitting for that day did at the park - rather unprofessional. The overall methodology just wouldn't cut it in most academic fields. A bit of a shame really, probably prevents what may be a very good perspective for many dog owners from ever making it to the mainstream.

Not for a minute did I misunderstand you. And I share your concerns about ignorant and misguided owners.

FWIW in the photo below, although the postures are similar, I see somewhat different body language from Hester. Alltogether more rigid and "serious". Truman looks to be in motion, happy, and ready to play: (BTW Truman is an absolutely spectacular hound.)

I believe it is entirely possible that pack social hierarchy may exist in some breeds and not in others. Why does it have to apply to all dog breeds or none? Greyhound genetics and upbringing may set them apart. It is even possible that some Greyhounds exhibit a tendency to social hierarchy while others may not. Nothing impossible about that. As for dogs ending up at the pound, well it doesn't matter what theory an idiot subscibes to, they will still be an idiot. Remember I am not interested in asserting my dominance over my dog. I am trying to make sure I am well equipped to understand and perhaps manage his attempts at dominance over other dogs. Hey, maybe he is not trying to be dominant. Perhaps it is every dog he meets just trying to be submissive . Today was amazing. He met at least 30 different dogs today of every imaginable type. He was proud and serious but very polite. He only warned off those dogs that lacked the right manners. The warnings were quick and gentle and the other dogs responded immediately. I filmed a few of the greetings. If I get a chance I will link to footage tomorrow.