Kevin Soiled His Crate

[AEB]

I left Kevin in his crate today for the longest amount of time yet- a bit less than 4 hours. I let him out around 11. he peed. I fed him lunch early, around 11:30. My husband stopped home for lunch and I was already running late for my appointment so he let Kevin out and saw him pee and poop. He stuffed a kong and left Kevin crated around 12:30 or so. When he got home from work a bit after 4 he found Kevin had peed and pooped in his crate. The poop was firm. They went outside and he peed and pooped again. He feels it was not fresh. I think you can't really tell. But, even Sadie with her kidney failure only had one accident in the year before she passed. And the house has all the windows open with a huge storm about to drop 14" of snow on the way. Needless to say no one is happy but Kevin. My husband is beside himself as to why this happened.

 

So, the questions are whether this was separation anxiety. He's not alone a lot because I work from home. But he's been left several times for up to two and a half hours. He's fine. Relaxed in his crate when you come in.

 

Or. Did he really have to go? He went twice right before he was crated and he's 3 years old. Seems strange.

 

I wonder if his diet has something to do with it. He's on Honest Kitchen, a dehydrated raw food. It's very wet when re-hyrdated. And he's eating a ton of it to gain some weight. When we tried adding kibble he gets horrible gas and even had a little of the big D. So we stick with what agrees with him. So he goes out a lot, but that's also because if he's pacing or near the door I ask if he wants out. I try to prevent accidents. (And he's only gone once it the house, not sure if it was marking or he had to go but I caught him right away and put him outside). I'm not sure if he actually has to go. But if he does go outside he will do something. He never just goes for fun. So if you think it was just he had to go, should we change his diet?

 

And, suggestions??? I'm at a loss- I've never had a dog soil inside the crate before.

[Guest mcsheltie]

I have heard a lot of people say that there is a large amount of stool on Honest Kitchen. Especially if you are feeding one with flaxseed in it. It is high up the ingredient list. That and all the veggies is a lot of fiber. Since he is doing good on it, I wouldn't change it. Instead figure out his routine.

 

Also... these dogs ate once a day at the track. If you are feeding him three times a day, he is going to have to "go" quite often. Feed him twice a day.

 

I have one dog who poops twice every time she goes. If we go in before the second, she goes in the house. That's just the way she is.

 

So don't be upset with Kevin. Some times it takes a little while to figure things out.

[AEB]

Well, we're upset and we're not. We're not taking anything out on him but we're understandably not happy.

 

I will have to review the ingredient lists again. I wondered about the flax because he goes poop nearly everytime he goes out and pees. I thought I saw flax in all the formulas. I am feeding a grain free formula with some add-ins like eggs, sardines, etc. McSheltie, What's your stance on grains?

 

I was thinking of feeding twice a day and splitting his lunch up between breakfast and dinner. The biggest downside to that is he is food crazed and feeding three times a day keeps him calmer too. I guess a small snack might be enough.

[Guest zombrie]

If it were me and my dog was pooping that much, I probably wouldn't give him a lunch. I'm not always going to be around in the afternoons to let him out and well, when you gotta go, you gotta go!!

But that's just me

[fourofem]

I may have missed this in an earlier thread but how long have you had Kevin? Was he fostered for a while or pretty much straight from the adoption kennel?

 

 

[AEB]

I may have missed this in an earlier thread but how long have you had Kevin? Was he fostered for a while or pretty much straight from the adoption kennel?

 

 

 

We've had him one month yesterday.

 

He came to us on hamburger and potato diet b/c he did not do well on the Purina Pro Plan kibble the adoption group provided the foster family and he had the big D. So once on Hamburger and potato he had good poop. In fact when we got him he pooped very little poops and not often. He almost seemed constipated. But he was also 7lbs below his racing weight. the worst part was it was incomplete. I killed myself trying to decide what to feed and settled on HK.

 

Yes, we're going to wean him off the lunch and consider switching food. we may be more diligent about adding kibble (orijen did not agree and innova hasn't either).

[Guest mcsheltie]

Well, we're upset and we're not. We're not taking anything out on him but we're understandably not happy.

 

I will have to review the ingredient lists again. I wondered about the flax because he goes poop nearly everytime he goes out and pees. I thought I saw flax in all the formulas. I am feeding a grain free formula with some add-ins like eggs, sardines, etc. McSheltie, What's your stance on grains?

 

I was thinking of feeding twice a day and splitting his lunch up between breakfast and dinner. The biggest downside to that is he is food crazed and feeding three times a day keeps him calmer too. I guess a small snack might be enough.

Grain is not an evil ingredient. For a large number of dogs it is not necessary. But some do better with it. I would prefer they got their nutrition without it. In large amounts (i.e. cheaper dry foods) it puts a strain on the renal system. It should never be in a food as a protein source. I find as a generalization that Shelties do better on a food with a little grain and the GHs do better on a food without. But as I said, that is just a generalization.

 

Honest Kitchen is an awesome product. If he is having solid stools and no gas I wouldn't even think about changing it! You don't know how lucky you are! Thrive has no flaxseed. It has quinoa, which is a grain. But it is a whole, easily digestible grain. BUT... before you change the kind of HK you are feeding, go to two a day feedings and figure out his routine. At lunch time give him a frozen Kong. That will keep him occupied for quite a while.

 

You had the perfect dog before Kevin and you have been spoiled A little pooping and peeing in the house in the beginning is normal.

[AEB]

Well, we're upset and we're not. We're not taking anything out on him but we're understandably not happy.

 

I will have to review the ingredient lists again. I wondered about the flax because he goes poop nearly everytime he goes out and pees. I thought I saw flax in all the formulas. I am feeding a grain free formula with some add-ins like eggs, sardines, etc. McSheltie, What's your stance on grains?

 

I was thinking of feeding twice a day and splitting his lunch up between breakfast and dinner. The biggest downside to that is he is food crazed and feeding three times a day keeps him calmer too. I guess a small snack might be enough.

Grain is not an evil ingredient. For a large number of dogs it is not necessary. But some do better with it. I would prefer they got their nutrition without it. In large amounts (i.e. cheaper dry foods) it puts a strain on the renal system. It should never be in a food as a protein source. I find as a generalization that Shelties do better on a food with a little grain and the GHs do better on a food without. But as I said, that is just a generalization.

 

Honest Kitchen is an awesome product. If he is having solid stools and no gas I wouldn't even think about changing it! You don't know how lucky you are! Thrive has no flaxseed. It has quinoa, which is a grain. But it is a whole, easily digestible grain. BUT... before you change the kind of HK you are feeding, go to two a day feedings and figure out his routine. At lunch time give him a frozen Kong. That will keep him occupied for quite a while.

 

You had the perfect dog before Kevin and you have been spoiled A little pooping and peeing in the house in the beginning is normal.

 

My husband is laughing. You nailed it. We did have the perfect dog. We told her from the start she was the perfect dog and she lived-up to it. She was totally different than Kevin. He is a love and much more relaxed than her in many situations, totally affectionate and silly, but she was our heart dog. And she rarely soiled the house! We will change to two meals. We did have to feed Thrive in addition to Embark b/c we had gotten low on the Embark and the store was out of Embark. He did fine.

 

What do you freeze in your Kongs?

[Guest mcsheltie]

Well, we're upset and we're not. We're not taking anything out on him but we're understandably not happy.

 

I will have to review the ingredient lists again. I wondered about the flax because he goes poop nearly everytime he goes out and pees. I thought I saw flax in all the formulas. I am feeding a grain free formula with some add-ins like eggs, sardines, etc. McSheltie, What's your stance on grains?

 

I was thinking of feeding twice a day and splitting his lunch up between breakfast and dinner. The biggest downside to that is he is food crazed and feeding three times a day keeps him calmer too. I guess a small snack might be enough.

Grain is not an evil ingredient. For a large number of dogs it is not necessary. But some do better with it. I would prefer they got their nutrition without it. In large amounts (i.e. cheaper dry foods) it puts a strain on the renal system. It should never be in a food as a protein source. I find as a generalization that Shelties do better on a food with a little grain and the GHs do better on a food without. But as I said, that is just a generalization.

 

Honest Kitchen is an awesome product. If he is having solid stools and no gas I wouldn't even think about changing it! You don't know how lucky you are! Thrive has no flaxseed. It has quinoa, which is a grain. But it is a whole, easily digestible grain. BUT... before you change the kind of HK you are feeding, go to two a day feedings and figure out his routine. At lunch time give him a frozen Kong. That will keep him occupied for quite a while.

 

You had the perfect dog before Kevin and you have been spoiled A little pooping and peeing in the house in the beginning is normal.

 

My husband is laughing. You nailed it. We did have the perfect dog. We told her from the start she was the perfect dog and she lived-up to it. She was totally different than Kevin. He is a love and much more relaxed than her in many situations, totally affectionate and silly, but she was our heart dog. And she rarely soiled the house! We will change to two meals. We did have to feed Thrive in addition to Embark b/c we had gotten low on the Embark and the store was out of Embark. He did fine.

 

What do you freeze in your Kongs?

If he does have a sensitive stomach you could freeze some of his HK in there. Use that to serve lunch. I use it as a way to get rid of leftovers and seal the ends with yogurt or peanut butter.

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

I'm going to second that grains are not evil. I do feed grain free Taste of the Wild Pacific Salmon, which ALL four my dogs do well on. But...I have a food houndy boy who will cry bloody murder if his stomach is empty. Finally the routine: breakfast. Lunch is a Large Milk Bone. Dinner. Snack is a milk bone. I don't feel too bad giving them the grain-ful milk bones since they are on grain free food. They love them, and they probably got them at the track as treats. (as far as I know...that's common) He absolutely must have a lunch time and bed time snack or he is unbearable. The milk bones do the trick. I do give them other stuff...but that's the core routine.

 

I know you are trying to put weight on him, but remember a high quantity of food does NOT make them gain weight, it makes more poop! He needs higher calorie food (think McDonalds, instead of the atkins diet) so...somone else will have to chime in here. The only higher calorie food I can think of is peanut butter...but you can't give to much of that either. It might take a while for him to gain weight, so don't worry too much about it if your vet says things are fine. Congrats!

[Guest mcsheltie]

If you are still feel distressed about Kevin, check out the OP's link on the thread named Tuesday Evening Funny. I'd take cleaning up a little poop and pee any day!

[AEB]

As for sensitivity-I think his stomach is mostly sensitive to kibble. Husband is hot on the kibble because he's annoyed with all the pooping and peeing and this just was the topper. Maybe i can mix the HK less loose of an oatmeal consistency? He can have peanut butter. I'm sure at a point it would give him the big D. Cottage cheese seems to give him gas. I think some of his food frozen in a kong is a great idea. and maybe a little PB too. Sounds like a gross combo to me but I bet he likes it.

My vet told me that he often sees dogs having trouble gaining weight on raw diets and some need to switch off because they can't maintain. He told me to feed more. Give him lunch. He gets almost double what he was eating when he came to us. Vet said it's ok. He gained 5lbs. Last week he lost 1lb. I had cut back his lunches because I was satisfied with his pace of gaining. But i upped it again and started add-ins and I think he's up again. He's probably not too far from where we want him. I'll see if we can dig out from the 2ft of snow and make it to the vet tomorrow for a weight check.

 

McSheltie, do you think maybe trying to feed half Embark and half Thrive might be a good idea? Grain for weight and less flax?

 

Also, I checked-out that site. I haven't laughed-out loud like that in a while. Very funny. Thanks! The accompanying illustrations were priceless.

[Batmom]

He gets almost double what he was eating when he came to us.

 

That could be part of what's making all the poop. The other part could be the food content, as already noted. There have been a few foods I've tried my dogs on that produced an absolutely astonishing amount of poop, even when fed only to maintain the dog's weight. Two of them were grain-free.

 

If he's basically healthy and not emaciated, there's no reason for him to gain more than 1/2 - 1 pound per week. Slow and steady wins the race .

[Guest PhillyPups]

First, take a deep breathe (and nit through your nose until the air is cleared).

 

I am wondering, even if it is normal, is it really fair to compare him to Sadie? (This coming from one of 5 kids always compared to her older siblings). Each and every hound is an individual with their own attributes.

 

One poop accident in the house in the first month is what I feel is a miracle.

 

In reading your post it sounds like he is pooping a lot. I would look into that. Mine (when all are healthy) poop two times a day, pretty mich like clockwork, after breakfast and after dinner. I feed kirkland and rice with some raw thrown in (turkey necks and chicken feet for their teeth. )

 

Good luck and please let him be him. I have found all my angels have become absolutely perfect dogs once they left. Each had their quirks but became perfect. But then, I overlook and enjoy their quirks, that, to me, is the fun and joy of sharing their journey.

 

Good luck.

[AEB]

First, take a deep breathe (and nit through your nose until the air is cleared).

 

I am wondering, even if it is normal, is it really fair to compare him to Sadie? (This coming from one of 5 kids always compared to her older siblings). Each and every hound is an individual with their own attributes.

 

One poop accident in the house in the first month is what I feel is a miracle.

 

In reading your post it sounds like he is pooping a lot. I would look into that. Mine (when all are healthy) poop two times a day, pretty mich like clockwork, after breakfast and after dinner. I feed kirkland and rice with some raw thrown in (turkey necks and chicken feet for their teeth. )

 

Good luck and please let him be him. I have found all my angels have become absolutely perfect dogs once they left. Each had their quirks but became perfect. But then, I overlook and enjoy their quirks, that, to me, is the fun and joy of sharing their journey.

 

Good luck.

 

First, let me just say that the volume and frequency of poop is incredible. I rode horses growing up. He gives them run or their money. If I could use it to power my house. . . I think it is the flax.

 

As far as comparing him to Sadie- it is extremely difficult not to compare them because they are so different- it's fascinating! I thought Sadie was relaxed. But Kevin wins the prize. Very little phases him. He got his first bath yesterday as a result of the obvious. With Sadie it was an ordeal - Kevin it was nothing. I think it's more bothersome to me to take a shower! He doesn't get upset by gunshots or metal noises. He is a total lover. He's not a picky eater. Sadie was like having another person in the house and she did her own thing. Kevin is interested in what we're doing all the time. They're just different. But one thing- she didn't poop as much!!

[Guest mcsheltie]

And you weren't feeding her so much either. This dog is pooping a lot because you are feeding him a lot. Your DH is hot to change him to kibble, but is he isn't going to be so excited about it if the poop turns to diarrhea and gas. Five pounds in a month is a ton of weight gain. I would not expect a GH to gain that much that fast. Some take 6 months to year before they really start to gain weight. Breeze ate 6 cups of food a day and never gained any weight in her first year. Their metabolisms have to slow down and that doesn't happen overnight. Some are always skinny.

 

It is BS that dogs don't gain weight on raw. Fat is fat. One gram of fat provides the same amount of calories no matter what the source. Be it from raw beef, chicken quarters or from kibble. If you want weight gain feed the HK that has the most k/cals per cup and use high calorie add-ins. If you want less stool feed more meat with it and change to Thrive.

 

I have to be honest, there is no problem here. He is pooping a lot because you are feeding him a lot. He pooped in his crate one time because he wasn't finished when you put in there. He only did one time!

[AEB]

And you weren't feeding her so much either. This dog is pooping a lot because you are feeding him a lot. Your DH is hot to change him to kibble, but is he isn't going to be so excited about it if the poop turns to diarrhea and gas. Five pounds in a month is a ton of weight gain. I would not expect a GH to gain that much that fast. Some take 6 months to year before they really start to gain weight. Breeze ate 6 cups of food a day and never gained any weight in her first year. Their metabolisms have to slow down and that doesn't happen overnight. Some are always skinny.

 

It is BS that dogs don't gain weight on raw. Fat is fat. One gram of fat provides the same amount of calories no matter what the source. Be it from raw beef, chicken quarters or from kibble. If you want weight gain feed the HK that has the most k/cals per cup and use high calorie add-ins. If you want less stool feed more meat with it and change to Thrive.

 

I have to be honest, there is no problem here. He is pooping a lot because you are feeding him a lot. He pooped in his crate one time because he wasn't finished when you put in there. He only did one time!

 

Sadie ate kibble plus home cooking for wet. She ate as much as we could get her to. That usually ended-up being about 3-4 cups a days of premium kibble plus a cup of wet. She basically self-regulated how much to eat. She knew how to stay within a pound or two of her ideal weight. She pooped twice a day unless we went for a long walk and then she would go twice just on the walk. She was a smaller dog at about 63-65lbs when she was healthy. As she got much more ill at the end she pooped more frequently. She lost a lot of weight as everything fell apart health-wise at the end.

 

Kevin is about 75lbs. He was 70lbs when he came to us. His racing weight was 77lbs. He was being fed 2.25 cups twice a day of cooked hamburger and potato a 2/1 ratio. He was food crazed and the behaviorist for the adoption group and the vet reccommended feeding lunch and increasing his food. He was eating around 5 cups a day when i brought him to the vet. I had already essentially transitioned him onto HK. The vet said because he hadn't gained he may need to go as high 9. I said that's ok. He said yes. We worked up to that. He got that split into 3 meals and gained. So we cut back to 1 cup at lunch. He lost a pound.

 

I think cutting back on lunch and feeding more meat with a mix of thrive and embark may be what I ultimately do. I just got him some chicken livers to add. A little bit. He seems to do better with some extra protein added- less hungry and i think he goes out less.

 

The reason I wondered if it was food volume/type v. anxiety is because he's been willing to hold it for long periods (like today because it's nasty out) and because he went out twice not long before being crated. And he was crated less than four hours. I also thought I saw some behaviors that might indicate separation anxiety (high pitched barking or crying when one person leaves the room and the door is closed, sitting and staring at the door when someone leaves, excitement sometimes when he sees you even if he just comes into the room (maybe this is just cute), crying in his crate if he can't see you, following from room to room-but that has lessened to only if you're in the kitchen!). but when he's been crated you come back to find him relaxed, often roached and he doesn't necessarily immediately jump to his feet. So i figure he's ok in the crate. I suspected he just had to go, just wanted to be sure.

[Batmom]

I'd say he had to go. That is a huge volume of a very high fiber food. I would recommend changing to something that provides the needed number of calories without so much fiber.

 

If he's 75 lbs now, you really don't need to worry about him gaining more, unless he raced exceptionally light for his frame. As he adjusts to home life, his "jump up and follow the people" urges will probably subside a little bit, he'll use slightly fewer calories, and those last couple pounds will creep on over time.

[AEB]

I'd say he had to go. That is a huge volume of a very high fiber food. I would recommend changing to something that provides the needed number of calories without so much fiber.

 

If he's 75 lbs now, you really don't need to worry about him gaining more, unless he raced exceptionally light for his frame. As he adjusts to home life, his "jump up and follow the people" urges will probably subside a little bit, he'll use slightly fewer calories, and those last couple pounds will creep on over time.

 

Then that begs the question of what to feed. I literally spent days researching foods and thought i was going to have to be committed I drove myself so crazy with it. I chose this one and he transitioned onto it so smoothly, except for all of the above. It is pretty comparable to the premium kibbles calorie wise. It is lower in protein. I'm thinking he's starting to look good but yes, needs a few more. I guess I just don't want him to backslide.

[Guest PhillyPups]

My big boys (90 lber.) eats 4 cups of food a day. 9 cups of food is a lot. No wonder he is a poop machine, what goes in must come out. 9 cups would feed 2 and 1/4 of mine a day, none of mine are underweight, none are fat. I am in shock at 9 cups of food a day.

[Batmom]

Might try Taste of the Wild High Prairie or Wetlands -- those are the two higher-calorie varieties. Many people seem to have good results with those. I would probably start at no more than 5 cups a day (once transitioned from his current food) and check his weight after @ 10 days.

[TheFullHouse]

Gee was on Taste of the Wild High Prairie for a while. She put on a ton of weight and was getting 4 cups of food a day. She's now eating the Wetlands variety and doing very well. She is the only one of my dogs who get this food because she has allergies and does very well on it. The rest of the crew get a mixture of Kirkland's Lamb and Rice and Kirkland's Chicken and Rice.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Actually TOTW is rather low in k/cals. It only has 370 per cup. Thrive has 510 plus your add-ins. Evo and other grain free foods are in the 500 k/cal bracket. Earthborn Holistic has 710 k/cals and an ingredient list similar to Evo. But whether Kevin can tolerate it remains to be seen. You could get a small bag and put it in his Kong at lunch time and see how that goes.

 

My opinion is still to go to twice a day feedings. Back off the amount and compensate for that by adding calorie dense add-ins.

 

You should post a picture of Kevin. If he looks too bony you know we'll tell you

[AEB]

My big boys (90 lber.) eats 4 cups of food a day. 9 cups of food is a lot. No wonder he is a poop machine, what goes in must come out. 9 cups would feed 2 and 1/4 of mine a day, none of mine are underweight, none are fat. I am in shock at 9 cups of food a day.

 

 

I think he lost 3 pounds with his foster family because they told me he was 73lbs but he was only 70.

 

And he lost a pound in just a week when I cut back to 7 cups!

Edited January 12, 2011 by AEB

[Batmom]

Actually TOTW is rather low in k/cals. It only has 370 per cup.

 

Those are the two highest in the TOTW line, is what I meant. In my experience, the High Prairie feeds comparably to a @ 450-kcal/cup food. I've found that some of the foods that claim very high calories (Instinct, Timberwolf) sure don't feed that way. I get better mileage, cup for cup, from Purina ONE; less poop too.