Ibd But Prednisone Not Helping

[Guest Stripeyfan]

I will finally be able to discuss all this with the vet today. Or DH will call her early this morning from work-I'll be teaching a class all morning and won't be able to phone. One thing that frightened me yesterday is that several times, Wizard's scalp began either visibly jumping or I could feel it vibrating with my hand. His jaw, too, and he clacked his teeth together repeatedly in a slow, rhythmic way. I don't know what it means, but I don't feel like it's good. Does anyone know?

He ate less yesterday, too. But he did opt to go down the stairs and out in the yard with the other dogs and walk around, and he's no longer having accidents in the house.

 

I"m counting the hours til we can get some answers and shift gears here. I'm just not sure how much more I should put my boy through.

 

We got off to a slow start diagnosing and treating this because his symptoms were so atypical--weightloss has been minimal, no vomiting or diarrhea. Just a variety of symptoms associated with huge amounts of gas in his poor intestines. I wish this would all move faster to bring him some relief.

 

Thank you all for the ideas you have given us. Susan

 

Hi,

 

This jaw thing happened to Kelly just after he started on his Pred 5 weeks ago. EXACTLY the same - scalp jumping, teeth clacking. He also twisted his head round. Our vet thought it might be either an unheard-of side effect or a focal seizure. However I wasn't sure as he also cried a bit like it hurt, and was TOTALLY aware the whole time, with no other symptoms before or after. To us, it looked more like a spasm or cramp, and massaging under his jaw and on the side of his neck seemed to bring pretty much instant relief.

 

In January, DH got taken to the ER with leg spasms and chest pains which turned out to be a potassium deficiency, which the doctor thinks happened because his job is very physical, making him sweat buckets and lose salt. Since Jan Kelly has had diarrhea on and off almost every other week, and then he was put on an initially very high dose of pred which made him pee like crazy. So when we took him to the vet (because like you we were really worried about it!) I asked if it was possible that all of this had simply flushed him out, leaving him with an electrolyte imbalance which was sending his muscles into spasm.

 

She gave us some doggy pedialite to try him with (we just gave small amounts as he wasn't needing it for dehydration - maybe 1/2 - 1 litre a day) and - TOUCH WOOD - the spasms stopped. He's had one more evening where he had them since – at the same time as another couple of days of increased peeing – and again, 1/2 a litre of pedialite over the next 18 hrs or so seemed to help. We now keep some on hand not only for when he gets the big D again but for this too.

 

I really hope Wizard starts to improve soon, big hugs to both of you.

[Batmom]

I know how worried you must be.

 

It might be worth starting him on a single novel protein, no other foods at all, to see if that would help him.

 

Sending prayers.

[Guest SusanP]

Stripeyfan, I'm *so* glad you told me this! I will discuss it with our vet today, too.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Glad to be of help (as I'm usually the one asking for it!). I'd be interested to see what your vet says in case I'm way off base on this one (our vet had never seen it before so we were all just guessing about it being an electrolyte imbalance), but the pedialite DID seem to stop the spasms, both times, which to me says it's a bit more than a coincidence. It took 2 days the first time, less than 24 hours the second. Good luck and more hugs!

[Guest mcsheltie]

Glad to be of help (as I'm usually the one asking for it!). I'd be interested to see what your vet says in case I'm way off base on this one (our vet had never seen it before so we were all just guessing about it being an electrolyte imbalance), but the pedialite DID seem to stop the spasms, both times, which to me says it's a bit more than a coincidence. It took 2 days the first time, less than 24 hours the second. Good luck and more hugs!

Good call! I've seen these symptoms after performance events in the summer. And it was an electrolyte imbalance. Bananas work. We have started feeding bananas before & after events. It also gives an easily digested energy boost. If it really hot we put electrolytes in their water.

 

I know you don't want to try bananas while dealing with IBD... but adding electrolytes to the water would be a good move.

[Guest SusanP]

I still can't get ahold of the vet. but what kind of electrolytes can I use? Regular children's pedialyte?

[Guest LindsaySF]

When I first adopted Cody he would have muscle spasms like this. Some in his jaw and face, but mostly in his legs. They were very subtle, sort of like his skin was rolling/twitching. We suspected an electrolyte imbalance as well. (Potassium affects muscle contractions, which is why potassium-rich bananas help ). Cody has Diabetes Insipidus which makes him drink tons of water and pee clear, he hasn't had any spasms since being put on meds for his DI.

 

Sophie has focal seizures, but those look different than these spams. They are more obvious looking, a little more violent, and often involve just one part of the face, or one side of the face seems affected more than the other. And she doesn't seem terribly bothered by them, or like she really even notices them. Cody on the other hand could tell his muscles were twitching and he looked uncomfortable or in pain.

 

Regular children's Pedialyte is fine. I usually use the unflavored kind.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

Edited April 19, 2010 by LindsaySF

[Guest Stripeyfan]

When I first adopted Cody he would have muscle spasms like this. Some in his jaw and face, but mostly in his legs. They were very subtle, sort of like his skin was rolling/twitching. We suspected an electrolyte imbalance as well. (Potassium affects muscle contractions, which is why potassium-rich bananas help ). Cody has Diabetes Insipidus which makes him drink tons of water and pee clear, he hasn't had any spasms since being put on meds for his DI.

 

Sophie has focal seizures, but those look different than these spams. They are more obvious looking, a little more violent, and often involve just one part of the face, or one side of the face seems affected more than the other. And she doesn't seem terribly bothered by them, or like she really even notices them. Cody on the other hand could tell his muscles were twitching and he looked uncomfortable or in pain.

 

Regular children's Pedialyte is fine. I usually use the unflavored kind.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

I've seen these symptoms after performance events in the summer. And it was an electrolyte imbalance. Bananas work. We have started feeding bananas before & after events. It also gives an easily digested energy boost. If it really hot we put electrolytes in their water.

 

Very interesting that other people have seen this exact thing! Our vet had never heard of it so I will mention it when we next go. Kelly's were on on one side of his face but obviously VERY uncomfortable. I forgot to mention this earlier but he also had a couple of very scary episodes where he started screaming in pain for no obvious reason, and yelping when I touched his shoulder on that side, another thing that made me think it was cramps (and what prompted the vet visit). Hope you managed to get hold of the vet now. It's so frustrating when you're waiting for them to get back to you!!

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Looking for an update on Wizard... How's he doing today? Did the electrolytes help?

[Guest SusanP]

I don't know what to say. I'm continuing to give Pedyalite, and yes, the spasms are happening less frequently, but he had a couple around 6-7pm last nite, one bad enough to make him cry out several times during the maybe 5-second incident. During that hour his whole body seemed strange, sort of awkward, and he was uncomfortable, inwardly focused when I walked him outside, not stopping to watch squirrels etc...

 

Otherwise he had had a pretty good day. When we talked to the vet Monday nite, she said she thinks IBF may be the least of his problems,if it is really a problem at all, that she suspects now that something neurological is going on, and that she is losing hope. As a last ditch effort to get some sort of improvement, we are experimenting by putting him on thyroid medication (twice vets thought he was low but the full panel came back saying no--this vet said thyroid can be hard to diagnose at times and that many of his symptoms could be explained by it, that the meds won't hurt him, and we are about at the end of what we're willing to put him through in any case). She also put him on Doxycycline in case there is some infective thing going on we haven't been able to see signs of in testing. She upped his prednisone to 20 mg 2x a day. Following this, he had a good night and a very good day, even chasing me up a hall and pouncing on his toy and shaking it at one point. His posture and expression were so relaxed and happy. He ate more than the two preceding days. But when he had the spasm episode in the evening, I got scared again. The vet doesn't believe he is dehydrated or that the prednisone can cause the spasms and thinks they are neurological. I'm giving the pedyalite anyway to be safe. After the hour of spasm issues passed, he was relaxed again and even ran downstairs and raced into the yard with his packmates, walking around out there for some time, happy and interested in birds and such. He ran back up the stairs but stumbled with his hind legs at one point. he had an uneventful night, went out to pee at 3 am and 3:30 am and is now still sleeping at 6:18.

 

The symptoms through this whole ordeal have been changing so much we're all confused. In retrospect, I think it began last fall with a little weight loss and increased restlessness. That was the first time we tested for thyroid and did bloodwork. We sort of got used to the behavior and it sort of came and went... then this spring, he stopped eating dry kibble, and we had a dental with extractions done as a result. 2 weeks later he began high stepping with his r front leg and peeing/pooping in the house, peeing very frequently, about every hour. The high stepping stopped after a couple of days and he stumbled occasionally with his hind legs for a short time after that. Then the leg problems stopped altogether, but he was walking very slowly most of the time on his walks, began eating less, was restless, seemed uncomfortable.

 

The vet did full blood panel, TBD testing, urinalysis, xray and now the ultrasound. All they see is gas in his small intestines and slightly thickened intestinal walls. He has had no diarrhea or vomiting during all this time. One thing no one did recently was a fecal exam, so I took a sample in yesterday and expect to get results this morning.

 

So you can see, everyone is at a loss, he's been sick a long time, and we're unwilling to put him through too much more. But if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

[Batmom]

No useful ideas, just sending prayers.

[Guest MZH]

They sound neurological but now I'm wondering if there's a food allergy involved too. Seems there was another thread on scalp waving. Flagyl has some weird side effects in some. Is he still on Flagyl?

[Guest Stripeyfan]

I'm so sorry to hear this, was hoping for better news. It did take about 3 days for Kelly's spasms to stop, and before we gave the pedialite they were happening every hour or so. He wasn't dehydrated either, not even slightly, but he had been peeing a LOT. He was (and still is) on an antibiotic at the same time as the pred, too (oxytetracycline). Maybe it's some weird side effect from the combination of steroid/AB (if Wizard is on an AB)??

 

Perhaps Wizard could also have a deficiency if he isn't eating much. We started giving Kelly a vitamin/mineral supplement at around the same time as the spasms because he is only able to eat home-cooked chicken and rice at the moment (even prescription food gives him raging D within hours), which meant he was probably deficient in a few things, too. Especially as it had been going on for 3+ months by then.

 

I'm afraid I don't have any more ideas than this, but we're thinking of you and continuing to send good thoughts.

[greyhoundgang]

From my experiences, getting second and even third opinions is important when you've done so much and still don't have answers. Holistic vets have tools that traditional vets don't - and sometimes they can do miracles. I've personally had that happen.

Holistic vets

 

 

additionally when a greyhound is on too many meds, then symptoms start appearing that are caused by the meds, and taking him off them might help get to what really is going on.

 

 

slippery Elm paste - info on Gang's site under LEARN. Medical. Diarrhea

will help sooth his intestinal tract.

 

Acidolphilus - to keep good bacteria in his sytem.

 

Changing the diet to raw when possible, or elimination of grains can sometimes work miracles also.

 

But i'm thinking taking all your medical history, and getting other opinions would be the most helpful.

 

Poor boy. Poor You. He's lucky to be so well loved. Don't give up hope. Just get other opinions.

[Guest SusanP]

They sound neurological but now I'm wondering if there's a food allergy involved too. Seems there was another thread on scalp waving. Flagyl has some weird side effects in some. Is he still on Flagyl?

 

 

He was on Metronidizole (Isn't that Flagyl?) until Monday night, when the vet took him off of it and replaced it with Doxycycline. He has had only the 1-hour episode of spasms/awkwardness since then, on Tuesday evening. Now it's Wed, and so far so good, though he tends to have these spells more in the evening from what I can tell. I'll try to find the thread, but if you know where it is, can you point me at it?

 

I'm so sorry to hear this, was hoping for better news. It did take about 3 days for Kelly's spasms to stop, and before we gave the pedialite they were happening every hour or so. He wasn't dehydrated either, not even slightly, but he had been peeing a LOT. He was (and still is) on an antibiotic at the same time as the pred, too (oxytetracycline). Maybe it's some weird side effect from the combination of steroid/AB (if Wizard is on an AB)??

 

Perhaps Wizard could also have a deficiency if he isn't eating much. We started giving Kelly a vitamin/mineral supplement at around the same time as the spasms because he is only able to eat home-cooked chicken and rice at the moment (even prescription food gives him raging D within hours), which meant he was probably deficient in a few things, too. Especially as it had been going on for 3+ months by then.

 

I'm afraid I don't have any more ideas than this, but we're thinking of you and continuing to send good thoughts.

 

 

Well, on the bright side, it hasn't been 3 days yet! Wizard was on Metronidizole when this began but the vet took him off of it on Mon night, and now he is taking prednisone and Doxycycline. Even though Wizard isn't eating much, he is eating commercial dog food, but I'll double check with the vet about calcium in particular, since our own vet mentioned being deficient his that can cause cramping.

[Guest SusanP]

I just read something that may explain Wizard's muscle spasms--emailed it to vet and called to ask her to check it and call me asap. But here is the article on what they used to call malignant hyperthermia, now apparently known as Canine Stress Syndrome.

 

http://www.labbies.com/css.htm

 

Please cross you fingers that this solves the riddle!

[Guest SusanP]

Vet says no to malignant hyperthermia since it didn't happen during anesthesia directly, that her understanding is that with greyhounds that is the only time it occurs...but the good news is that Wizard has had no spasm spells that I've seen since last night and only the one spell last night, so the vet is encouraged. She wants us to give him a week before making a decision about euthanasia, a week to see how he's doing on the meds he started Mon night. She's happy with the baby steps he's making. Today he ate about 2 1/2 cans of canned food and surprised us by chowing down on an unmeasured but significant amount of dry kibble for the first time in a month. We've had two pretty good days in a row, and have not given up yet.

 

So where we are now--eating more, fewer spasms, no frequent urination or pooping or peeing in the house...He seems thin and weak and tired, but overall, it's progress. But I know better than to get too hopeful.

[Guest MZH]

Yes, metronidazole is generic Flagyl. It's known to induce seizures and cause neurological problems. Check out the article on this on my greyhound articles website. Here's the URL to the metronidazole article.

 

I bet it was the metronidazole!

[Batmom]

Fingers crossed he's on the upswing for good now!

 

Yeah, I finally got to wondering about the flagyl, too. Reactions aren't common, exactly, but not uncommon either.

[Guest SusanP]

Wow! I had no idea, and why didn't the vet think of this? He stopped taking the metronidizole on Monday nite, had only 1 spasm attack Tues, no spasms at all on Wed.

 

He began eating some dry kibble in addition to eating more of the canned food I'm offering him. At 1 a.m. after he went out to pee, he was in the kitchen shoveling kibble onto the floor--his one bad habit, but something he hasn't done in a month. I was so glad to hear that sound I almost jumped up and down. (I'm leaving the kibble all over the floor for DH to see when he wakes up this morning ) Then he took a mouthful of kibble back to the living room (where I was sleeping with him) to munch on. He is sleeping comfortably now at 6 a.m.

 

I'm not sure he will get better, but for now he is improving a lot. Still don't know what we are treating FOR, but I'm glad this vet was willing to try some creative doctoring in a last-ditch effort to save him. I know we have a long way to go before we can really be happy, but today I can breathe a little easier.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Yay, Wizard! You keep eating, ya hear? And no more of those spasms, either!

[Guest MZH]

Yay from me too! Make sure "no metronidazole" is engraved in large lettering on your dog's chart!

[Guest kydie]

Ibd is so tough...... sometimes the cure is worse than the disease

[Guest SusanP]

Wizard is continuing to do pretty well, though it worries me that he is still walking slowly (most of the time) and not that hungry. I'm kind of hoping the prednisone is making him feel a little tired and the doxycycline is making him a tad nauseaous, because I don't know what it could mean otherwise. I did pick up some probiotics this morning but want to wait til I check with the vet before starting them. Please keep Wizard in your thoughts.

[Guest zoolaine]

Yes, metronidazole is generic Flagyl. It's known to induce seizures and cause neurological problems. Check out the article on this on my greyhound articles website. Here's the URL to the metronidazole article.

 

I bet it was the metronidazole!

 

 

Interesting article. Sunny's oncologist said that Metronidazole is only effective against giardia at really high doses, which can cause neurological effects so she didn't want to increase Sunny's dose of it (used panacur instead). I never knew this about Metronidazole and Sunny has been on it for 2 years now.

 

Hope Wizard continues to improve

Edited April 23, 2010 by zoolaine