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vjgrey

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    Dog Parks

    in Training and Behavior discussion

    Posted

    My apartment complex in Norman has its own dog park/pen, but I only use it when it's empty.

     

    Neither of my dogs is small-dog safe, and neither has done well with non-greys. Gabe is more likely to just ignore them, but Diamond is TERRIFIED of them, which eventually turns to barking and growling, which, in turn, gets Gabe all riled up.

     

    When they're alone, Diamond LOVES to run laps, and Gabe likes to walk around and pee on everything. ^_^

    Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    The behavior you have described , while fairly rare in dogs, is increasing in frequency in humans.

    I am drawing a total blank as to the medical term used, but there have been several studies done on

    this syndrome in recent years.

     

    The most notorious case involved a man who KILLED his wife while asleep and had NO memory of the incident.

    He was acquitted after tapes of him in the hospital showed him performing "normal" tasks, like eating, dressing,

    making toast and 'watching' TV all while clinically asleep and with him having NO awareness of his behavior.

    There have even been well documented cases of people driving a car while 'asleep', over-eating to the point of

    bloat and punching holes in walls while 'fighting' with non-existant assailants. :eek

     

    Quite a number of these cases involve VIOLENCE towards others and in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE the people have

    been described as appearing EXACTLY as you have described Gabe:

    wide open eyes, apparently awake but with a 'glazed' expression;

    inability to get the person to 'snap out of it' despite calling their name;

    appearing to be 'in a trance' and unable to respond to normal stimuli;

    complete LACK of any memory of their behavior while in this state and, MOST telling,

    in EACH instance the violence was UNPROVOKED and directed towards someone the person

    was known to 'love' prior to AND after the attack.

     

    Again, I cannot recall right now what the treatment was for these people, however, I DO recall that all of this

    was SLEEP related and monitored at sleep clinics when it was determined BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT

    that the people were NOT and COULD NOT be faking.

     

    I don't know if this info helps but, you could look on the web and maybe find out more about what

    the DIAGNOSIS was and the treatment for the PEOPLE and perhaps that will help YOU help your VET

    help GABE. :heart:hope

     

     

    My husband has Parasomnia. He gets up in the middle of the night and wanders the house. He can hold a full conversation with you and you won't even know that he was sleeping. I caught him outside in the middle of the winter, just wearing his boxers, sitting in his Mustang with the engine running. Thank god that car is loud because he could have just drove off and caused himself or someone else harm if i didn't wake up. There is a certain way to talk to a parasomniac to get them to comply and return to bed. I had to as much research and talk to a bunch of doctors to learn the correct way to help him. When we were first together, i tried to coax him back to bed but it ended up being the wrong way and he almost punched me in the face. He was having a nightmare and acting it out so i tried to help but helped the wrong way..

    I have seen this happen in all breeds of dogs. More so in Rotties, who suffer from sleep aggression then any other breed that comes into the hospital.

    Our Vet gives this advice to owners who have dogs that have sleep agression (which is very similar to parasomnia in humans):

    Come up with a "Safety word" for your dog. What is a "Safety WOrd" ? It's a word that corrisponds to a positive state of mind when the dog is awake. If the dog cuddles with you, use a word or phrase that signifies what the dog is doing. For instance: "Cuddle mamma" or "snuggles" or something that you say to the dog over and over again when they are awake and exibiting a behavior that is positive. Over time with saying this phrase or word to your dog, they will associate it with positive and non aggressive behavior.

    WHen the dog has a moment like the one that you just exerienced, snap your fingers, say the dog's name and the safety word in a soft but stern voice. SNAP Gabe, snuggles.... and if the dog knows the word and it has been said enough in a positive state of mind, the dog should snap out of the aggression. DO NOT USE THE SAFTEY WORD FOR ANY OTHER COMMAND BESIDES THIS ONE.... that is where most pet owners go wrong. They end up using the saftey word as a command when the dog is awake and showing aggression. If you do this, you will need to start all over with another word or phrase. THink of this word as "Sterile". It has only one purpose and that is a command while the dog is asleep.

    Now, this works as part of a treatment program if the dog does have underlying medical issues. Once you get the health concerns out of the way, you can work on the mental aspect of the problem. I have a safety word with SHelby so that this can be avoided.

    I have one with my husband too...... "soft fluffy bunnies". how funny is that???? LMAO

     

    Thank you both SO much! I haven't had a chance to read too in-depth (I have an Evidence final tomorrow - ugh!!) but what I have read sounds more like what we've experienced than anything else so far. I'll definitely ask our vet about this. You've given me hope that we might actually figure this thing out.

    Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    Why not go to Kansas State for a consult if they have experience with greys? They might have seen this before.

     

    Sending prayers.

     

    Although we haven't yet visited Kansas State, our vet has been in touch with the vets there. He's also posted our case on behavioral and internal medicine listserves, to see whether anyone has any ideas. Lots of minds are working on it - we just don't have any answers yet.

    Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    If you decide to pursue further diagnostics, are you anywhere near a veterinary teaching hospital? I know that at Univ Wisc Madison, some of the fancier diagnostics are a LOT cheaper than they would be at a regular specialty clinic.

     

    We have homes in Kansas and Oklahoma, since I attend law school at OU Monday-Wednesday. Our vet has been in touch with a neurologist at Kansas State, who says he would do the MRI for roughly $1,000, not including any blood work that they'd need to do beforehand and not including the fees for any meeting with us. Less expensive than some places, I'm sure, but still a lot of money. We're perfectly willing to spend it if it will help Gabe, but our vet seems to think it won't show anything. If the cause were a brain tumor, we would've likely seen other signs by now.

     

    Your post did remind me, however, that I should try Oklahoma State University, in Stillwater. It's an agricultural school and almost certainly has someone specializing in veterinary neurology.

     

     

     

    Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted · Edited by vjgrey

    Gabe had another "episode" this morning. I was fully awake for this one (and he was muzzled and across the room from me and Diamond - thank goodness) but it still left me shaking afterward.

     

    Oddly, it happened at about the same time of day as the attack last month - just before 9am. I was in bed, surfing the internet, when I heard him start to growl. Nothing seemed to have provoked it - he was by himself on his bed, near the foot of my bed. Diamond was on her bed, to the right of mine. I sat up, and the growling and snarling got louder. It wasn't the low, irritated growl we usually associate with his sleep aggression - it was really throaty and vicious-sounding (the Old Yeller rabies scenes come to mind), and he was showing his teeth. He had a glazed look but seemed to be fully awake - eyes open, sitting up, moving (at one point, he turned his head to look at Diamond). He didn't respond at all to his name. The really spooky part was that he did this for a LONG time. I'd estimate a minute to a minute and a half. Long enough that I had time to debate whether I should try to get Diamond out of the room (she was still sleeping). I ultimately decided that any movement on my part or hers was a bad idea at that point.

     

    It all stopped just as suddenly as it started. Gabe kind of blinked, yawned, and stretched and nestled to make himself more comfortable in his bed. He was very suddenly my sweet boy again, as if it hadn't happened. He went to sleep almost immediately and started to bark and "woof" in his sleep - something I'm very familiar with. He woke up an hour or so later, his old, sweet self - no signs of aggression whatsoever.

     

    I'd been very hesitant to put him on phenobarbital without any real evidence of temporal lobe seizures (since I was asleep when the last incident started) but this sure looked like something like that to me. It was like something in his brain went off-track and then corrected itself. I keep him muzzled when we're sleeping and when we're not here, but it seems like something that could happen at any time, and that REALLY worries me. I guess we'll have to medicate him and see what happens.

     

    My poor, sweet boy.

    Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    What do they expect to see/look for with an MRI - just a tumor somewhere? If so, what are your treatment options and would you go with any of those options. If so/not, is it worth it to do the MRI?

     

    They would be looking for a brain tumor or for any physiological signs of a seizure disorder. If it's a brain tumor, there would be no real treatment options, except to try to assess how long we could maintain a good quality of life for him. If we did the MRI, it would be primarily to attempt a definite diagnosis of seizures, although our vet thinks its unlikely that non-convulsive seizures would show that type of physiological signs.

     

    We're probably not going to put him through the MRI. We're pretty desperate for answers at this point, but I don't really think an MRI is going to provide them. Our vet is going to call Kansas State this week to see whether they think it would be helpful.

    Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    We had our second vet visit tonight, and even the vet admits that we're left with a lot of questions and few answers.

     

    Gabe's numbers on the thyroid panel were a little low, but after consulting with a vet at Kansas State and another who handles a lot of sighthounds, our vet says he feels comfortable ruling out hypothyroidism.

     

    He's also ruled out an adrenal disorder - Gabe's blood work is perfect.

     

    Other possibilities include a brain tumor or a seizure disorder. If it's a brain tumor, it's at a very early stage, because Gabe isn't displaying any signs of damage to his nervous system - no difficulty walking, blindness, facial paralysis, etc...

     

    Our vet says that he can't rule out temporal lobe epilepsy, but he says this type of epilepsy often doesn't show obvious physical symptoms, so it's difficult to diagnose.

     

    He said that while nothing medical obviously fits, it also (after considering it further) doesn't strike him as a behavioral problem. Gabe is a sweet, affectionate, obedient dog. He sits (often even without the command) and waits for permission before eating his food. He sits at the door and waits for us to put his leash on and waits for us to go through the door first (and has done this since the day we brought him home). He doesn't pull on the leash, isn't aggressive to strange dogs we meet, isn't aggressive with us or with Diamond. (In fact, he's extremely patient with Diamond, who has a bad habit of play 'biting' his head).

     

    These are the options our vet has recommended we consider:

    1) Telephone consult with a behaviorist to see whether this sounds remotely behavioral

    2) MRI to rule out a brain tumor

    3) A trial of phenobarbital

     

    The MRI would cost approximately $1,200. Well worth it if it would help Gabe but not money we can really spare if it wouldn't. (After all of his foot and stomach problems, Gabe's vet bills are at around $3,000 for the four months we've had him). He'd also have to be put under anesthesia, which always makes me nervous.

     

    The phenobarbital may or may not help, but how are we to know if his "episodes" happen so infrequently? After six months with no aggression, we couldn't be sure whether the medication was working or whether Gabe had just been a very good boy. Also, there's a real possibility that the meds could cause kidney or liver problems later down the road.

     

    I really don't know what we should do.

     

     

     

     

     

    Sudden, Unprovoked Violence

    in Health and Medical discussion

    Posted

    Gabe's thyroid screen came back at the low end of normal, so the vet is now running a full panel (which, yes, he should've done to begin with :rolleyes:). He said he doesn't suspect hypothyroidism, because normally that would also result in other numbers being high (e.g. cholesterol), and Gabe's are all fine, but we really need to rule out anything medical.

     

    If his thyroid is normal, we'll investigate a possible seizure disorder.

     

    In the meantime, he's banned from all furniture, muzzled at night, and is "earning" his treats, food, and walks. It's hard to tell whether any of it is effective (well, except the muzzle) since he only becomes violent once in a blue moon, but with all this, plus the medical investigations, at least we don't feel totally helpless.

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