What The Heck Happened?

[kolarik1]

Let me start by saying Zelda HATES going inside new places, which means she doesn't like pet stores. We had a meet'n'greet today, so I took Uno & Zelda...I have taken Zelda to meet'n'greets before, not a lot, but a handful. Zelda panted like crazy (like she normally does) which of course makes her warm...she drank a little water while there. We had been there over 2 hours when I saw her lay down on the blanket we had there, but she didn't seem right. I thought she might have to potty so I got her to walk outside but she was walking stiff on her left side.

 

We get outside by the corner of the building and she is super stiff on the one side, her front half kept falling to the ground, her jaw was clamped shut and her pupils looked about the size of a pin. I pryed open her mouth (twice) and stuck my fingers down her throat to see if she had swallowed something & by doing this I pushed her tongue out of the way both times. I kept telling her to look @ me and she tried her hardest to obey but she just couldn't control her body. That's when I thought 'why am I OUTSIDE? Our booth is right by the vet.' So I took her back in...the worst was over & she was still walking a little stiff & she seemed a little disoriented. I did take her back outside for a few minutes to cool her off & she seemed to be almost herself, but still a little out of it.

 

So, was this a seizure? And was it stress/heat induced? She always flips out over meet'n'greets which is why I don't take her often, but I won't be taking her back after this.

 

I stopped by my vet on the way back & they had just closed so I talked to them & they recommend doing bloodwork. I scheduled an appt., but should I just watch her to see if it happens again or go get the bloodwork done?

 

Needless to say I almost bawled @ the meet'n'greet because I thought I was watching Zelda die in front of me & I felt helpless (yes I was overreacting).

 

Thanks for all input.

Edited November 14, 2010 by kolarik1

[Guest Energy11]

Wow! You must have been very frightened. Yes, it does sound like a seizure to me. Was she very tired afterward? It could also have been a TIA (mini stroke).

 

I would not bring her to anymore M and Gs, and keep her out of stressful situations as well.

 

I'd recommend bloodwork, a full exam, and be sure the vet checks her blood pressure. This is soooo often overlooked with dogs, and it can be the cause of a lot of problems. My Curfew had an "episode" about 2.5 years ago, and has smaller ones every now and then. I call them mini strokes, one vet, seizures, ... another vet doesn't know, so, when he has them, I treat for both a mini stroke and seizure. Anyway, shortly after we started going to the vet here, she did an EKG on him (normal) but his blood pressures were off the charts, so, how, he is on Enalapril for his BP, and it is working great.

 

Sending lots of hugs, support and prayers your way, and hoping this was an isolated incident.

 

 

[kolarik1]

Wow! You must have been very frightened. Yes, it does sound like a seizure to me. Was she very tired afterward? It could also have been a TIA (mini stroke).

 

I would not bring her to anymore M and Gs, and keep her out of stressful situations as well.

 

I'd recommend bloodwork, a full exam, and be sure the vet checks her blood pressure. This is soooo often overlooked with dogs, and it can be the cause of a lot of problems. My Curfew had an "episode" about 2.5 years ago, and has smaller ones every now and then. I call them mini strokes, one vet, seizures, ... another vet doesn't know, so, when he has them, I treat for both a mini stroke and seizure. Anyway, shortly after we started going to the vet here, she did an EKG on him (normal) but his blood pressures were off the charts, so, how, he is on Enalapril for his BP, and it is working great.

 

Sending lots of hugs, support and prayers your way, and hoping this was an isolated incident.

 

How do you treat for a stroke or seizure? She didn't seem tired so much as just out of it. Then once she was with it, she just wanted to go. I know when I had childhood seizures they just watched me to make sure I didn't get hurt, but what do you do for a dog?

[Guest Energy11]

When My Curfew gets his "episodes," I give him (1) 81 mg low dose aspirin (*to break up a possible clot). I also give him rectal Valium if needed (per the vet) to calm him down and it stops whatever he has.

 

Per Dr. Couto, I also give 1/2 81 mg low dose aspirin daily, with a Pepcid AC, to keep his blood thin.

 

I wouldn't recommend any of the above, until Zelda sees her vet, and testing is done. This may never happen again, either, but, I'd get everything checked out, just to be sure.

 

Curfew also gets 5 mg of Valium at night, because he is very very restless at night, ever since he had his first "episode" two years ago. I definitely think he has some brain damage :-(

 

Please keep us posted on your baby girl! Hugs! Dee

 

 

[kolarik1]

When My Curfew gets his "episodes," I give him (1) 81 mg low dose aspirin (*to break up a possible clot). I also give him rectal Valium if needed (per the vet) to calm him down and it stops whatever he has.

 

Per Dr. Couto, I also give 1/2 81 mg low dose aspirin daily, with a Pepcid AC, to keep his blood thin.

 

I wouldn't recommend any of the above, until Zelda sees her vet, and testing is done. This may never happen again, either, but, I'd get everything checked out, just to be sure.

 

Curfew also gets 5 mg of Valium at night, because he is very very restless at night, ever since he had his first "episode" two years ago. I definitely think he has some brain damage :-(

 

Please keep us posted on your baby girl! Hugs! Dee

 

Thank you, I really appreciate it. We are leaving a week from Sunday to drive to Florida, so I am hoping I have a firm grasp on what is happening by then. She is acting pretty much like her old self, just a little tired. I am hoping she still wants to play bumper butt (she bumps me with her butt because she wants a butt massage) while we are out walking.

[Guest Energy11]

It does almost sound like a mini stroke, the more I read your original post. I'd ask the vet about the 1/2 baby aspirin daily (*I give with Pepcid AC for the stomach). My vet here is totally against the aspirin, but she is not GH savvy, and Dr. Couto himself recommended it, so that stands.

 

As I said, if all her bloodwork comes back normal, and the blood pressure is fine, you many never see this again.

 

I used to live in Florida ... did for 16 years. Hated the heat, but it IS a nice place to visit, and November is a decent time of year to go, as well. Have a safe trip, and feel free to PM me if you need anything else. I will be happy to help if I can.

 

Many hugs!!

 

 

[kolarik1]

My first thought was seizure, but her body didn't convulse, so then I thought stroke due to the stiffness & her falling down in the front. Plus, I know people can get heat stroke, so maybe her body temp rose enough to do something similiar with her? I feel horrible for this, but she has done meet'n'greets before for 3 hours and was fine (just panted a lot like she did today).

[Guest Energy11]

My first thought was seizure, but her body didn't convulse, so then I thought stroke due to the stiffness & her falling down in the front. Plus, I know people can get heat stroke, so maybe her body temp rose enough to do something similiar with her? I feel horrible for this, but she has done meet'n'greets before for 3 hours and was fine (just panted a lot like she did today).

 

 

Don't feel badly about the M and G. Like you said, she's done them before, and nothing like this has happened. Dogs and people both get heat strokes, but to me, (retired paramedic and then retired vet tech), it doesn't sound like a heat stroke. Maybe a combination of the stress, panting/heating up, etc., could have been a trigger for whatever this was ... hard to say. As I mentioned in previous posts, it may, very well, never happen again, but a good check up is in order.

 

Do keep us posted and give her a HUGE HUG for me!

[Guest zombrie]

I'm no expert but I witnessed a beloved kennel dog have a mini stroke and it sounded a lot like what you explained. Only difference is that she would go sideways when she tried to walk after the episode (not sure exactly how long afterwards, she slept the rest of the day)

I can't imagine how scary that must have been for you

[KF_in_Georgia]

Dogs can have "absence seizures" (petit mal seizures) as well as the gran mal sort, so actual convulsions are not inevitable. If your vet thinks this might have been a seizure, ask for a prescription for valium before your trip to Florida. Valium is used to break up cluster seizures (one seizure occurring after another), and having valium on hand can eliminate the need for a frantic race to an emergency vet.

 

Before your vet visit, write down some notes: what time of day this happened, how long since her previous meal (did she eat normally? how much?), approximate temperature at the M&G, how long the "event" was obvious to you, how long did it take her to get back to normal (seizures often have an aftermath period where the dog is responding to its name but still is not "right"). After the event, was she eating and pooping and moving normally? Or was there a problem (e.g., diarrhea, nausea, grogginess)? Be prepared to keep a similar record of any future events Zelda has. There may be something in her life that triggers these episodes. And ask your vet about the possibility of a tick-borne disease. TBDs often manifest as neurological problems; TBDs can lie dormant for a long time, then spring up years after the dog was exposed.

 

And before your trip to Florida, hunt on-line to determine where emergency vets are located. You might want to print maps (or addresses and phone numbers) and take that with you, along with a copy of Zelda's medical records.

 

Also, the most urgent thing: Make sure Zelda is protected from your other dogs when you aren't there to take care of her. It's not unknown for dogs to attack a dog having a seizure--even dogs from the same household. Zelda needs to be crated for safety or all the dogs need to be muzzled when you aren't going to be home to look after them. And if there is another episode with Zelda, be prepared to push the other dogs into a spare room or move Zelda to a safe place (like an ex-pen; getting her into and out of a regular crate when she may be seizing could be difficult). And if you have Zelda and the other dogs together in the car, you may need to muzzle everyone. If Zelda has a problem while you're doing 55 on the expressway, you won't be able to help her very quickly.

[kolarik1]

Dogs can have "absence seizures" (petit mal seizures) as well as the gran mal sort, so actual convulsions are not inevitable. If your vet thinks this might have been a seizure, ask for a prescription for valium before your trip to Florida. Valium is used to break up cluster seizures (one seizure occurring after another), and having valium on hand can eliminate the need for a frantic race to an emergency vet.

 

Before your vet visit, write down some notes: what time of day this happened, how long since her previous meal (did she eat normally? how much?), approximate temperature at the M&G, how long the "event" was obvious to you, how long did it take her to get back to normal (seizures often have an aftermath period where the dog is responding to its name but still is not "right"). After the event, was she eating and pooping and moving normally? Or was there a problem (e.g., diarrhea, nausea, grogginess)? Be prepared to keep a similar record of any future events Zelda has. There may be something in her life that triggers these episodes. And ask your vet about the possibility of a tick-borne disease. TBDs often manifest as neurological problems; TBDs can lie dormant for a long time, then spring up years after the dog was exposed.

 

And before your trip to Florida, hunt on-line to determine where emergency vets are located. You might want to print maps (or addresses and phone numbers) and take that with you, along with a copy of Zelda's medical records.

 

Also, the most urgent thing: Make sure Zelda is protected from your other dogs when you aren't there to take care of her. It's not unknown for dogs to attack a dog having a seizure--even dogs from the same household. Zelda needs to be crated for safety or all the dogs need to be muzzled when you aren't going to be home to look after them. And if there is another episode with Zelda, be prepared to push the other dogs into a spare room or move Zelda to a safe place (like an ex-pen; getting her into and out of a regular crate when she may be seizing could be difficult). And if you have Zelda and the other dogs together in the car, you may need to muzzle everyone. If Zelda has a problem while you're doing 55 on the expressway, you won't be able to help her very quickly.

 

Thank you for the good ideas. I crate when I'm gone, although I am trying leaving Uno loose w/Pop (both are muzzled) to see if that will stop his SA...I think he just hates being crated after finding out that he no longer has to be...so far he has passed today, we'll see if he cries tomorrow when I'm gone.

 

I will have a passenger on the trip to Florida, so I will have muzzles with me and someone to help...I will also get ER vets in the area. I took Zelda outside yesterday as soon as I saw something wasn't right as I didn't want her going down in front of the other greys, but I should have just pulled her off by the vet out of the reach of the other greys. I will move the boys into a separate room if Zelda has another episode as I know the other dogs may attack her if she has another seizure.

 

I just got back from the vet & hadn't been on the computer yet today. The vet said that it could have been a petit mal seizure & suggested I keep a journal. They did find a heart murmur which she hasn't had before & her blood work came back good except her WBC are on the low side (3.65 and low end normal is 3.5 for greys)...they ran a urine sample & that was good, so no UTI but they gave a script for Doxycycline in case there is an infection unknown to us currently & want to re-check her bloodwork in 2 weeks. I will ask about a script for valium & see if they can give it to me.

[KF_in_Georgia]

It sounds like you're doing for Zelda what we did for Jacey. We did the doxycycline for two weeks, but didn't do more bloodwork since her first lab numbers were all good. Jacey had her last event about two weeks before the vet visit (she had a number of odd episodes that lasted only three or four minutes, and she'd go weeks between events). She finished the doxycycline two weeks ago, so it's been about six weeks since an episode. In her episodes, there's no convulsive behavior--just her standing there hunched up, tail tucked, and completely unresponsive to her name, to me--to everything.

 

If Jacey has another episode, I'll make notes about everything. And if she has another episode within 24 hours of the first one, I'll give her a Valium as soon as she comes back to more-or-less normal. But the Valium actually was the vet's idea, so I wouldn't have to take her to an E-vet if trouble started on the weekend. (My guys have never figured out how to get sick or hurt during regular vet hours. Staples? UTIs? Broken bones? Only after hours.) If you tell your vet you're worried about cluster seizures--or about trouble while you're on the road--I don't think there'll be a problem getting a prescription.

 

If you've got a Garman or a smartphone, you can probably dispense with lists of e-vets on your route as long as you'll have reception during your drive. If I call up Google maps on my cellphone and type in "emergency vet," the phone reads my current location and gives me a list of vets, with links to maps and directions. And you might ask your vet for a printout of Zelda's latest bloodwork results that you can take with you on the road, so any emergency vet would have something to use for comparison.

 

Besides, it's been my experience that planning in detail for an emergency generally is enough to make the Universe pick on someone else.

[GreytHurleyDawg]

Oh, poor Zelda!!! I think it sounds similar to 7 yr old Hurley's incident in August, which was a hot time in Wisconsin (I copied my description):

 

Hurley was sound asleep last night around 12:30 am on the living room rug when he jumped up suddenly but could not stand on his back legs so he thrashed around a bit until dh Jim supported his chest. At that point, his back legs were splayed out and back a bit and he was breathing heavily. His eyes were shifting left to right oddly. I took the other two hounds out of the room since they were quickly moving in to investigate.

 

We gave him a minute or two and he was able to stand again and his eyes were normal. We considered rushing to the e-vet but decided to take him out for a leashed walk. He was fine: peeing and walking, following commands, using steps. So, we delayed the vet visit until our regular vet opened this morning.

 

Anyway, he hasn't (knock on cyberwood) had anymore episodes and the decision to not freak out was very important to me. He had an incident, he recovered quickly. Those two facts are manageable. I think you came to the same conclusion that day. Hurley's bloodwork was all normal except the liver enzyme ALT (147, normal 5-105) was mildly elevated. If he had nibbled at a mushroom, this may have elevated it. Normally, mushroom toxicity causes ALT to shoot above 1000 so we didn't expect this to be a reason. His recheck ALT a few months later, was normal. The vet thought it was probably a Petit mal seizure. So far, no repeat episodes. I hope Zelda has the same luck!!!!

 

Another thing that we were told about seizures is never to put your hand into their mouth because they cannot control it and WILL bite you. Fortunately, she was able to control that so that is another good sign!!

 

Sending many good thoughts for your trip and Zelda's health!

Edited November 15, 2010 by GreytHurleyDawg

[kolarik1]

I should add the vet did a complete physical exam on Zelda & didn't see anything wrong, nothing neurological either. Due to the low WBC (low end of normal) the vet started listing off possibilities and then said '...cancer, which is low to last on the list.' I stopped her and said 'actually, not with her as her sire passed around 6 1/2 years of age because he had stomach cancer.' She asked which kind, which I didn't know, I just know that he had passed. So, there go my worries, yet again, that her genetics will catch up to her.

 

 

Another thing that we were told about seizures is never to put your hand into their mouth because they cannot control it and WILL bite you. Fortunately, she was able to control that so that is another good sign!!

 

Sending many good thoughts for your trip and Zelda's health!

 

 

Yeah, I know I shouldn't have stuck my hand in there, but I was worried she had swallowed something when I wasn't looking & her airway was blocked, although she wasn't choking. Besides, she has a tendency to bite when playing as she never really learned bite inhibition...still, not going to reach my hand in again unless I notice she is choking on her tongue during a seizure.