DunesMom
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Posts posted by DunesMom
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But, to your specific question, the simplest answer I can give is aggression is a normal part of communication between dogs. But we're not dogs, and dogs know we're not dogs.
I do think you could see some of the above side effects with interactions between dogs, but those are unfamiliar dogs and/or dogs with inappropriate social responses. But in family units with behaviorally healthy/socially appropriate dogs then yes, I think it's a function of this is normal, expected behavior/communication and the punishment is being doled out by the dog being "bothered" (for lack of a better word) and it's doled out with precision - both in terms of timing and intensity of punishment. We simply can't do as good of a job as dogs do.I hope that makes sense. Don't think I'm answering your question as eloquently as I could, but I'm pressed for time.
Thank you! Makes perfect sense, especially to anyone who's tried clicker training or watched a newbie try it. Timing is crazy hard to get right.
And now I have a faster, better answer for when people ask me why punishment "doesn't work" when obviously it does (both for mama dogs and owners who scare their dogs into "desired" behaviors).
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Thanks Dunesmom.
A couple of people have mentioned punishment options. Here's why I wouldn't go that route. When we use punishment, WE understand that the punishment is associated with a specific behavior, but the DOG does not. So the dog can associate the punishment with anything around him at the time that it occurs. What will also be around him at the time of the punishment by nature of the situation? Dogs. So over time he may learn that approaching a dog predicts unpleasant things and suddenly you have a dog who is dog reactive or worse aggressive. And the important thing to keep in mind is that by definition, in order for punishment to work, it must be something that the dog finds aversive (causes pain or fear). Otherwise it wouldn't stop the behavior.
So with the squirt bottle, if the dog truly didn't find it aversive at all, you could potentially use it to interrupt the behavior, but it won't stop him from trying in the future so you might as well interrupt by grabbing his collar or stepping in between like the OP has been doing.
Exactly why I generally don't like using the squirt bottle. You give a better explanation than are written in most behavior papers!
That said, I keep using the squirt gun to deflect bullies, because while I agree with its downsides, it's also the safest option I have for stopping a rude dog from trying to mount, body-slam, or jump on my dog. With the squirt gun, I don't get bitten by reaching for a strange dog's collar, my dog doesn't get bitten, and the clueless owner usually doesn't even realize what's happened.
Do you know of a better safe option?
(Not walking my dogs isn't an option; off-leash rude dogs are very common in my neighborhood.)
At the risk of hijacking the OP's thread, I'm also curious as to how the mother dog's education of the puppies works...she definitely uses punishment to stop bad behavior IME (same with mama sheep, horses, cows, and rabbits on our farm). It seems like that's what happens also with some dog-dog behavioral communication, one dog telling another to back off. Most dogs try to avoid the bully but will eventually growl/snap or even worse. Is their own use of punishment more effective simply because it's coming from their own kind, and thus they associate it with the behavior rather than something around them in the environment?
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If Florida were my dog I wouldn't really appreciate someone letting their dog pester mine to the point that she went off just to teach that other dog a lesson.
In any event, it sounds like she already has and your dog still didn't get the message. So I'd say its time to stop the dog park visits. Does he do anything else while there? If for instance he runs a fee laps before he starts pestering the females then it might be worth it to let him run the few laps to get the exercise benefits and then the moment he paws a dog, snap the leash on and go home. Maybe over time he realizes the only way to stay is if he doeant do that, or maybe he just gets a little exercise and you go, but in my opinion nothing to be gained by continuing with what you've been doing.
This is why I love GT.
Great advice from Jen. I'm usually a believer that most dogs with good socialization will work things out quickly and efficiently.
But Jen makes a good point about not letting him pester another dog. And I am a mama bear about my own dogs and don't tolerate crap from other dogs (or from my dogs to other dogs).
FWIW, I carry a squirt gun at all off-leash areas and even leashed hikes (because most people ignore the leash laws). It's been a great way to deflect dog bullies whose owners are clueless about their dog's inappropriate behavior.
Maybe try a combo of the squirt gun plus leashing him up and leaving the moment he starts the behavior?
PS -- I generally try to avoid negatives like a squirt bottle, but for some dogs, it's the fastest and safest way to stop what could get them hurt. It depends on how you think he will react; I've had two very "soft" hounds who would've been traumatized by a squirt of water and two who wouldn't have noticed a fire hose....
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I'm a sucker for the big fawn boys. He's gorgeous. Congratulations!
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If it's a greyhound only, muzzled group, then it is what it is. I would continue redirecting him, but eventually "Florida" will get sick of it and let him know!
I think that many boys need a mama dog to teach them a few manners after retirement -- the kennel staff does such a good job of stopping bad behavior from turning into fights that the buttheads don't learn NOT to be buttheads.
If they're all muzzled, I'd keep doing what you're doing and wait for the day that Florida or someone else tells him to BACK OFF. He'll learn.
(I've had three fosters like that; all learned after another dog finally gave them the bark-snap-growl once or twice.)
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Grace and Fenway sent me a good one.
This just warmed my heart. Sometimes, I think they DO send the next one; exactly the one we need.
Congratulations!!! She's got big collars to fill, but from those pics, she'll do it.
Can't wait to meet her!
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That is great news on the cats and adjustment she's making! Isn't it fun to watch them discover the world off the track?
You'll find she comes more out of her shell every day for weeks or months.
Thanks for posting. You reminded me of why I foster--because some adopters really are great homes, but just can't/don't want to deal with the off-track adjustment. Good for you for taking the leap and helping Pachi adjust!
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We did the loading dose and it didn't have a noticeable effect until the third injection - then it was VERY noticeable, at least for Dune.
Good luck and I so hope it helps!!
ETA: Saw your other post. We did not see any side effects -- it's essentially a high dose of glucosamine--and it did take a few days to see any improvement. When we finished the loading dose, we saw a huge improvement in Dune, and it was clear that it helped him. YMMV.
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sub-q or intramuscular? i was sorta freaking out w/ the intramuscular between the hip bones and base of the spine. is it just me?
IM, butt muscles (what was left of them, he was 13 and the LSS had taken its toll).
It was a small amount and really quick and easy, small needle.
You'll find you can do it, especially after you see such an improvement. I'd have learned to stab myself just to give him that much relief!
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Adequan gave my heart dog a good four to six months of comfort in his old age, when nothing else worked any longer (LSS and arthritis). I wished then that we'd tried it sooner.
Easy to give the injections yourself and fill the scrip online for best price.
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Never used OTC or oral version, but I can vouch for the amazing efficacy of the injections from the liquid we bought at the vet for our IBD hound. Kipper went from being miserable and no energy to almost his pre-IBD puppyish self almost overnight. Wish we'd tried it a year earlier.
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Update:
Foster pup had a seizure last night at 2:00 am. No history at racing kennel, they said.
Still thinking it's not related and that was vet's thought, too, but we are mindful of neurological possibilities.
Poor pup was fine within minutes of it ending, but mortified he'd messed his crate. We gave him lots of reassurance as we cleaned him up, then went outside for a pudding poop (is that normal after a seizure?).
He was bouncy and full of mischief by the time we came in and acting totally normal this morning.
Still open to thoughts; all input helps when making a log of events and things to watch for. Thanks!
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Without a full workup "chasing ether" as my Dad would say, the vet's best guess is coordination, healing overuse injury/strain, or possibly a nearly healed spondylolysis (not spondylosis), which is a lumbar fracture common in child athletes in humans.
Nothing obvious shows up; Stack test is negative, no pain reflexes on physical exam.
Because he seems totally fine (and rambunctious) otherwise, the thought is that we watch it and don't let him run much (which is a nightmare because he is a total puppy).
I hoped someone with more experience with young racers had any thoughts of alternate Dx to explore if the nail dragging continues.
what does your vet say? has your vet looked at him? it sounds like there could have been an injury, racing at 15 months? that was the age that felix had accident insurance, there were some close calls back then- like when he crashed into a fence, smacked into a concrete table and more....best of luck. make sure it's not neurological.
This pup crashes into EVERYTHING, so I wouldn't be surprised if he wiped out or twisted himself into some crazy position and tweaked something.
Or, he might just be ungainly and will drag them until he grows into his size. He's already a big boy and I think he'll be over 80 lbs when he finishes growing.
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Foster boy:
- 16-month-old
land sharkgreyhound puppy - Gigantic, huge, uncoordinated -- jr. high stage, clunks into everything
- 33" back, all legs and bones; hasn't finished filling in (or maybe even growing taller)
- 15 races starting at 14 months, no sign of injury, just "no menace" (he lopes, and looks like Bambi on ice when he does zoomies)
Cannot find any research or mention of stenosis in young dogs, and I doubt that's it.
Any ideas? Early arthritis in the lumbar spine? Simply a coordination issue?
- 16-month-old
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1 out of 4 here, and our sweet osteo dog, Kipper, was 9. Two boys were both 14 and suffered LSS but were otherwise amazingly healthy, and our current boy is 5 and healthy.
Remember that roughly half of all dogs get some type of cancer. Very little solid research shows that the rates of cancers are actually climbing in dogs independent of age (and the few that do tend to be of very inbred show breeds with a genetic-based cancer).
Instead, dogs are living longer and being exposed to more things over their lives, just as humans are. The longer a mammal lives, the higher the chance for cell mutations that are cancerous.
A couple years ago, there was a much-publicized tiny (maybe 20 dogs) study that concluded that neutered golden retrievers had higher rates of cancers.
There are studies that indicate that neutering does correlate with higher rates of certain cancers (and lower rates of others). So it's certainly something that should be studied but it's not my point.
My point is this:
This tiny study had so many co-factors that it was impossible to say that neutering led to increased cancers, and more importantly, the outcome that no one put in their "news" stories was that THE NEUTERED DOGS LIVED LONGER.
Thus, even if they had higher rates of cancers, they still lived longer on average than the un-neutered dogs.
Which would you choose?
They're all going to die of something. So are we. Let's love them while we can.
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Those are fabulous!
Your artwork is on my wish list.
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Huge hugs for you. I hope Mac is okay!
IMO, there's always an adjustment curve even with dog-savvy cats and cat-safe dogs; that's why I'm a fan of the safe room and muzzle for weeks to months, even if all seems well.
I'd keep Mac behind a latched door in your bedroom while Cyrus is loose in the house, whether you are home or not, for the time being. Otherwise, Cyrus is tethered to you. Start back at the beginning. Follow the distract-treat game someone outlined above. Dogs can re-learn; all is not lost.
Above all, don't beat yourself up. You seem to have good animal instincts.
Sometimes, things happen that surprise even the animals involved. A roommate once had a sweet Rottie and huge tabby cat. The Rottie had grown up with the cat from 7 weeks old. They snuggled. One day, we came home to a scene best left to imagination. Something in the Rottie snapped, maybe, but we'll never know -- we just know that she slaughtered her BFF kitty, after six years together.
I don't want to scare you with this. Just the opposite: Any dog can have a moment of prey-drive insanity. Sometimes on a greyhound training board it sounds like greyhounds are the only dogs that need to be carefully watched and managed and trained to be cat-safe. I believe that greyhounds are no more or less likely to be cat-safe than any other hunting or herding breed.
I've had two non-cat-safe greyhounds who ended up living with cats just fine after a lot of careful work and some time away from chasing a lure (and yes, they were tested by a skilled trainer and both were insanely focused on getting the kitty, so it wasn't a mis-label on either).
Good luck! Cyrus is gorgeous (and so is Mac!).
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Any chance that something happened while you weren't at home that startled him or scared him? Jack hammering in the street, banging from construction or other source, attempted break-in, or something else out of the ordinary?
The other possibility, I was wondering if the park has changed the type of fireworks or the path that they launch and they now hurt the ears because there is a different frequency or volume that your dog is hearing. I know those aren't solutions, but figuring out why might help with a potential solution.
Great questions.
Nothing has changed in the display itself or its location/duration, and he's actually been outside and in the park directly under those fireworks before without doing anything more than look at them curiously. That was five months ago, however. They haven't been active since Easter weekend, when he did raise his head and get the worried-forehead look before I jumped up and gave him a treat and he forgot about them again.
Maybe it's just that there's been a long break? They were every weekend for his first 3 months here, then all of the Xmas/NY season. Then Easter weekend, then nothing until this weekend.
I was walking the two dogs we are dog sitting when the fireworks went off, so didn't see the initial freakout, only the hours-long aftermath. DH thinks he may have handled it badly, not understanding what was going on and telling Dash to calm down in a stern voice before realizing that he was flipping out (he thought someone might have been at the door at first). That may have compounded the problem.
But Dasher is not a "soft" dog who's going to be cowed by a stern voice -- he is one of those super confident, easy, laid-back dogs that everyone loves because they're just so chill. He's handled loud music at outdoor dining venues, poorly socialized/obnoxious dogs (he ignores them), screaming kids and toddlers, noisy streets, noisy hotel rooms -- you name it -- with aplomb.
Maybe he's been so easy that I overlooked something in my travel-socializing training. I worked much harder to turn Kipper into an easy traveling hound; I might have missed some combo that could set Dasher off. I just cannot figure out what it was.
Maybe the fact that he's had the two girl dogs here for a couple of days and then they were gone when the fireworks started? He's not a fan of the bulldog, but he seems to like them both well enough (for being non-greyhounds).
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Dasher has suddenly become terrified of fireworks, which he's heard and ignored every Friday and Saturday (and weeklong during holidays plus the entire month of December) since we fostered him in September.
We live next to a theme park that used to have fireworks 282 days a year. Now they're down to 80+, mostly weekends and holiday weeks, plus all of July/August.
I've been through CC&D many times with other dogs, and even sweet Kipper only needed 3-4 weeks of work before the then-nightly fireworks didn't faze him at all. (He never, ever conditioned to thunderstorms or rain, and eventually needed Xanax to get through those because it only got worse instead of better over time.)
My real question is, is this normal, to have a confident dog who has slept through fireworks every weekend for months to suddenly become terrified of them?
He also was jumpy the past two days about other sudden bangs like car doors in the alley, starting after the first fireworks freakout.
It seems very odd to me. Wondering if I should look for other behavior changes and/or start back at square one of travel-socializing training (farmer's markets, eating outside at restaurants, walking on busy streets instead of our neighborhood, etc.).
He's a confident, laid-back dog who has slept on his back through thunderstorms in strange places (we travel with him a lot), and never reacted to sudden loud noises beyond looking in the noise direction, ears up, and then immediately going to check out the source of the sound. He's traveled with us many times and been bombproof in hotels, storms, strange parks, houses, etc (except with cats...but that's another story).
After Saturday night's debacle, I dosed him with Kipper's Xanax an hour before last night's fireworks, and he STILL freaked out, though he calmed enough to actually eat the beef jerky within a few minutes of the fireworks ending. That's a pretty strong reaction, IMO -- Xanax was a miracle worker on Kip.
Tonight I guess I'll use the Xanax again, along with treats and happy talk, because at least he calmed down soon after. Saturday, he was a panting mess for hours afterward.
Thanks for any advice!
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Dear sweet Kipper, the sweetest, kindest, silliest, shyest hound I ever knew, lost to osteosarcoma of the hip joint on Sept 23, 2015 at only 9 years old.
Far, far too soon.
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Oh, I am so sorry. I've loved Spriet's photos and your tales of her for years. Godspeed, dear Spriet.
f_yellow -
Our chattering, tail-wagging, curious and beloved Kipper (RD's Kiper) was euthanized Wednesday 9/23 due to osteosarcoma. DH and I are trying to process the pain and grief of losing too soon a great little happy soul who shared our lives and love of travel.
Kipper logged more than 70,000 actual driving miles with us around the U.S., and he both loved it and was a joyous companion who had friends and admirers scattered throughout the lower 48 states.
Kipper was a shy foster with no intent, chosen because he was not a personality I would fall in love with. DH and I planned to choose our next hound together when he returned from a trip. At the kennel, Kipper was a mostly bald, bony-framed, white and brindle boy who bordered on spook in the early days.
But Kipper’s extreme shyness masked a curious, playful, chattering, tennis ball-loving, tail-wagging and happy hound, particularly around stuffies and, after two long and difficult years of daily training and socializing to ease his fears, around humans he considered “his."
Even in those tough first years, Kipper loved travel. He loved the car; he learned in one weekend that he loved hotels and the delicious treats humans brought every time they left the room. He was afraid but also deeply curious; this allowed him to view the truck as his giant safe crate, from which he could see and smell the world.
We never thought a shy dog would be our perfect traveling companion, but Kipper was. He had many fears and anxieties but was always, unfailingly, a glass-half-full hound, greeting every morning with bright eyes and happy chatter and a big, deep bow.
He will be deeply missed. We are grateful to Operation Greyhound for rescuing him and allowing us to share his life.
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Mega Batboy ran 211 races all at Caliente Mexico. He was a dog that needed to be either 1st or 2nd to the turn to have a chance to win. My guess is the races he won from 2nd was probably because the dog on the lead quit and came back to him because closing wasn't what he normally did.
He was all over the place in grade. He would win a couple in a row and run in A and then drop to B and stay there a while. Then he might drop to C and even D and hang there a while before winning and moving up again.
There were no breaks in his lines so he ran pretty much injury free.
Dick
Thank you! He's a solid little ball of muscle and almost looks like a bulldog instead of a greyhound -- I guess at 65 short, thick, pounds, he was tiny but mity when it came to a long racing career.
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Hi Dick,
Thank you for de-coding all the track data for us. What is your take on our current foster, Mega Bat Boy?
Thanks!
V
I do think you could see some of the above side effects with interactions between dogs, but those are unfamiliar dogs and/or dogs with inappropriate social responses. But in family units with behaviorally healthy/socially appropriate dogs then yes, I think it's a function of this is normal, expected behavior/communication and the punishment is being doled out by the dog being "bothered" (for lack of a better word) and it's doled out with precision - both in terms of timing and intensity of punishment. We simply can't do as good of a job as dogs do.
f_yellow 
Say Hi To Panda!
in Introductions & Biography
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Congratulations! She's gorgeous. And the look on her face....something tells me she'll have plenty of personality when she adjusts to pet life. Have fun!