Guest akawow Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 My girlie had a bad year in 2012, with one toe amped in March and then another on the same foot (both wt.bearing) in November. We have had it all pretty well healed, including new pad growth due to her changes of wt. bearing. After each amp, she had some pretty bad phantom pain, but things leveled out and it disappeared. She was finally able to frolic again and get out of the house to exercise. Several weeks ago, the phantom pain returned, and so did the Gabapentin. Didn't take it all away, but made things tolerable enough that she would still run and play. Several days ago, it increased to the point that she could not even lay down long enough to settle before she'd be flying off the bed like a bat out of hell, pointing to the foot. She was pacing and just miserable. She's on Previcox, Gaba, Tramadol, and we are now going to add Amantadine. While I'm sure this is not an uncommon problem, I'm trying to get a feel for what to expect... does phantom pain just come and go the rest of the dog's life?? This is a dog who Looooooooves to run, jump and bounce around. I'm letting her do as much of that as she feels like, which hasn't seemed to be a problem until this week. Think there is a connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akawow Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grey_dreams Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 There are some very knowledgeable people who could help you when they stop by (tbhounds and JJNg). I tried to find some information, but didn't find much. Have you tried acupuncture? I think that would be my first choice. If you can't find a good acupuncturist, just let us know where you are located and we can help you. Have you tried warm/hot compresses on the amputation sites? Have you tried massage and/or T-Touch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akawow Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I'm not sure how to massage it? The pain is at the end of the bones just above where they were cut off - that seems to be the only place we're seeing a pain response. Hence, I have assumed that massaging there would not be feeling good.. What is T-Touch? I'm in southwest Ohio, and at this point short on funds after numerous biopsies, surgeries, etc. Every time we start to level off and I begin to think it's over, it starts up again...will she ever have a normal life for more than a few weeks? or is this how it's gonna be?? Amputation, in our case anyway, has not been all it was cracked up to be. Bolting and pacing greyhound, discouraged me. Thanks so much for answering grey-dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grey_dreams Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) Oh, you are in Ohio, then you are in luck Do you know about the Greyhound Health and Wellness Program of Ohio State University in Columus? They are the world experts on greyhound physiology and health. They are also the leading experts on amputation in greyhounds, although this generally involves a leg due to the prevalence of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) in greyhounds. They might know something about phantom limb pain. I searched using "certified veterinary acupuncturist cincinnati ohio" and found Kyle Veterinary Hospital, Plum Street Pet Clinic, and the Veterinary Wellness Center in Harrison. Edited to add: Sorry that it's been so tough for you and your girl. I don't know much about toe amputation, but have heard that they can be problematic. I think others will be along after a little while who are more knowledgeable and who can help you. Edited February 8, 2013 by grey_dreams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJNg Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Why were the toes amputated, and were they complete amputations that removed all 3 bones of toe? To be honest, phantom pain doesn't seem to be a common long term consequence of toe amputations, or even limb amputations, in dogs. It's certainly possible, but before assuming it's phantom pain, I'd be more inclined to investigate further to make sure there isn't something at the surgery site or remaining bone that could be causing pain. Maybe your vets have already done that? Has she had any recent x-rays taken? Also, dogs don't grow new pad tissue, although they can form calluses. That comment about new pad growth makes me wonder if there's abnormal pressure causing pain? But in that case, I'd expect to see a lameness with activity, and not pain that keeps her from settling. What are the doses of her current meds? I agree that acupuncture may be worth considering. And perhaps consulting with a rehab specialist, if there's one in your area. And OSU is always a wonderful resource. Quote Jennifer & Willow (Wilma Waggle), Wiki (Wiki Hard Ten), Carter (Let's Get It On), Ollie (whippet), Gracie (whippet x), & Terra (whippet) + Just Saying + Just Alice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akawow Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Previcox- 1/2 tab bid Gaba-33mg a.m., 100 mg. pm- when we've exceeded this she's become v. hyper Tramadol- 100 mg bid When we've exceeded this, there's been trouble w/ her not peeing Amantadine- just starting it, going v. slowly as it also can lead to hyperactivity I believe toes were taken off just above the 2nd joint, one by OSU, one by local vet w/ some conjunction w/ OSU. As I said, we're still paying on those, so money is tight.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieProf Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I would also strongly think that is real pain from the end of the bones, not phantom pain. I've heard of dogs with those partial toe amps having problems that dogs where it is taken back to the base of the foot (like Beth) do not have, and I've never heard of a dog with a complete toe amp needing long-term pain meds. (Also, isn't phantom pain, if dogs even get it, in the brain? Do regular pain meds even address it really?) I'm sorry your girl is going through this. I would be very interested to see a pic of her foot with what sounds like both weight-bearing toes gone; I have never seen that. Beth has lost a weight-bearing toe too and I am always afraid of what would happen if she injured the remaining one and needed. It's great to know your girl seems to manage well aside from the pain issue. Quote With Cocoa (DC Chocolatedrop), missing B for Beth (2006-2015)And kitties C.J., Klara, Bernadette, John-Boy, & Sinbad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grey_dreams Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 ...Also, isn't phantom pain, if dogs even get it, in the brain? Do regular pain meds even address it really?... At least in humans, AFAIK, phantom limb pain is thought to arise from damage to a nerve endings at the site of amputation. The damaged nerves transmit signals that are interpreted by the brain as pain in the limb/appendage that was amputated. I suppose that pain meds that function to decrease nerve conductance would be effective on phantom limb pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJNg Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Gabapentin dose is very low, and it (along with amantadine) are the ones most likely to help with nerve pain. Hopefully adding the amantadine will help. Have you tried going to 3 times daily on the gabapentin? What about gradually increasing the dose again to see if she tolerates it better after her system has gotten more accustomed to it? Quote Jennifer & Willow (Wilma Waggle), Wiki (Wiki Hard Ten), Carter (Let's Get It On), Ollie (whippet), Gracie (whippet x), & Terra (whippet) + Just Saying + Just Alice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akawow Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 yes, Gaba is low, but we are starting slowly w/ it and the Amantadine because of side effects seen previously. Maybe we'll be able to work it up, I don't know. As far as I know Gaba and Amantadine are the only drugs used for this kind of nerve pain. She's a little better today, the meds are synced better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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