Upset tummy - possible causes?

[MerseyGrey]

We are having a few issues with Buddy’s tummy and was hoping to get some opinions from the experienced folks here. Long post, so sorry!

since he came to us, more than two years ago, Buddy has always had stools which are at best, on the soft side and at worst, light brown liquid. He was on a salmon and rice kibble at the adoption centre, and on the advice of our vet we swapped him onto Royal Canin, which we then changed to senior RC as he aged - he is now almost ten. The consistency of his poop improved marginally but was still soft, so after a while we transitioned him slowly onto Hill’s but we changed him back to RC (also slowly - we tend to transition him over the course of a 15kg bag) because he didn’t seem to enjoy his food as much. During this time, we introduced Olewo carrots, which made the most significant improvement to his stools in that the first poop of his walk would be solid, the second is well formed but soft and the third + (if we get more) is not well formed, very soft and difficult to pick up.

We swapped his food again this year (also very slowly) to a food sold through the Greyhound Trust here in the UK which is lower in protein. He has been on that food for about two months without any RC mixed in. We didn’t see any significant change in the consistency of his poop but about a month ago, he started to have accidents in the house overnight. These are poops of variable consistency, usually not accompanied by any pee. Buddy occasionally eats his own poop which I think has happened with the solid droppings. But there have been a few occasions where he has produced a huge quantity of poop which has been incredibly soft, basically diarrhoea. After one particularly messy event in August we took him to the vet who gave him a once over -no temperature, nothing to concern them. They gave us a probiotic paste to give him over three days and some sample bottles to test his stool but it all seemed to clear up so we didn’t follow it up. We put it down to a change in his routine brought about by walking him later in the evening because of the heat, although I know this wouldn’t explain the diarrhoea, but since then we’ve had fewer accidents (and they’ve been solid). We have continued to take him for a final walk before bedtime, but have tried to bring this walk earlier in the evening as the days shorten and integrate it into his normal walk.

last night we walked him a bit later, around 9pm, where he gifted us with a poop. Normally this is a guarantee that there will be no accidents, but this morning we came downstairs at 6.30am to four poops, all basically diarrhoea. He had two further poops on his walk, both very soft/runny. The kitchen poops had a bit of mucus in them, and I am pretty certain he had worm eggs in some of his poops on his walk (they looked like small tomato seeds - is it likely that they were worm eggs?)

Before taking him to the vet in August, we had been giving him probiotic tablets for about three weeks with no change in his poop (volume or consistency). We mentioned this to the vet, and the brand, and her comments indicated that it was a good brand. We reduced the probiotic tablets from 3 a day to 1 a day but had already decided not continue with them as they weren’t making a difference. We also bought more of the paste that the vet had supplied which we gave him early September but this also didn’t make a difference.

He is up to date with his worming (but has made a meal of his kitchen poops at least once since then so could have reinfected himself - is this correct?). He had his main treatment 2nd September which covers most types of worms, ticks and fleas (nexguard spectra), and had a separate tapeworm treatment (Droncit) 8th September. He has the nexguard monthly, and we give him the Droncit every four months. 

We have taken samples from the kitchen poops and from his walk this morning, and will from his afternoon walk and will take them to the vet. There is no blood in his poop - ever - but there has occasionally been mucus. His skin is in good condition and he has a lovely shiny coat. He is not bloated and doesn’t try to scratch his bottom (as far as I’m aware). He does go on grass eating frenzies from time to time, which he is more likely to poop out rather than sick up. So there seems to be no specific symptoms other than permanently soft poop and intermittent diarrhoea. I am thinking that this might be giardiasis but don’t really know. Hookworms are rare in the UK although I know that doesn’t mean that he can’t have them, it’s just less likely. 

I know that there are lots of variables (and possibly too much information in this post) but does anyone have any thoughts? He does get quite a few treats but he hasn’t had anything we don’t normally give him. I am less certain about him having picked up something on his walk - generally he snaffles it before we have even noticed that there is something he’s interested in on the floor.

I know that there might be lots of opinions on Buddy’s diet but if that’s the case I can start another thread in the diet forum (I’m interested in a raw/part raw diet but am unwilling to introduce that at least until after I get his sample results back as I don’t want to cause further problems or introduce another variable).

Thanks in advance for investing your day in my post!

[macoduck]

Have you tried this?  https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/metronidazole

Does Buddy drink any outside water, as in bird baths or puddles?  I had to get rid of my birdbath years ago but all my dogs drank from it and all 3 got roaring diarrhea.

You should be able to find Yucca like this over in the UK. https://greyhoundgang.com/collections/gut-help

Slippery Elm powder can also help calm the gut. https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/home/features/alternative-meds-update/slippery-elm-an-effective-anti-inflammatory-agent/

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by macoduck

[FiveRoooooers]

Another vote for Slippery Elm, it works well here for one of my seniors. 

This is really basic, but, with Buddy’s meals are you moistening it with water or broth? It has been my and others’ experience that too much liquid can be the simple driver of exactly some of the problem you’ve described. “Too much” is subjective. One of my seniors can only eat dry kibble, which along with Slippery Elm, has helped produce lovely poop and not soft serve. My other seniors get their kibble moistened with 2-3 turns of the bowl under the kitchen faucet. 

[greysmom]

We already know vets in the UK are very different from the ones here in the States regarding diagnosis and treatment of more complex health issues.  Still, it seems some very basic things have not been tried or even thought about, unless you didn't mention them.

Number one - eliminate all medical causes:  Has he been actually tested for parasites or other intestinal diseases like Giardia?  Has he been actually treated for his diarrhea with rx medications like metronidazole, tylan, steroids - anything other than supplements and probiotics??  What does his bloodwork and urinalysis say?  Has he ever had an ultrasound of his abdomen to check for tumors or thickening of the walls if his intestines?  Have you had his heart condition tested by echocardiogram?

Once you eliminate medical causes for his constant diarrhea (namely - parasites, intestinal diseases like giardia and coccydia, IBD/IBS, etc), it's time to check in with his food.  Analyze the foods and treats you've been feeding him.  Do they have a common ingredient he *may* be allergic or intolerant to like chicken (even in minute amounts) or corn.  These are the two most common canine allergens, but there can be myriad others.  Have you ever tried a home-cooked bland diet for any length of time or has he always eaten a commercial diet?

There just seems to be a lot of questions unanswered about his treatment up to now, so thinkig about these answers may help.  Before you move on to trying a raw diet, I would definitely get to the bottom of the cause for his diarrhea.

[MerseyGrey]

Firstly, thank you both for reading my war-and-peace post!

 

2 hours ago, macoduck said:

Have you tried this?  https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/metronidazole

Does Buddy drink any outside water, as in bird baths or puddles?  I had to get rid of my birdbath years ago but all my dogs drank from it and all 3 got roaring diarrhea.

You should be able to find Yucca like this over in the UK. https://greyhoundgang.com/collections/gut-help

Slippery Elm powder can also help calm the gut. https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/home/features/alternative-meds-update/slippery-elm-an-effective-anti-inflammatory-agent/

 

No bird baths or puddle water for Buddy, he will only drink water from the highest spring, on the highest mountain, filtered by eunuchs and bottled by virgins. He’s just that kind of dog. Seriously though, he won’t even drink from another dog’s bowl so I can confidently rule out dirty water.

 

1 hour ago, FiveRoooooers said:

Another vote for Slippery Elm, it works well here for one of my seniors. 

This is really basic, but, with Buddy’s meals are you moistening it with water or broth? It has been my and others’ experience that too much liquid can be the simple driver of exactly some of the problem you’ve described. “Too much” is subjective. One of my seniors can only eat dry kibble, which along with Slippery Elm, has helped produce lovely poop and not soft serve. My other seniors get their kibble moistened with 2-3 turns of the bowl under the kitchen faucet. 

He has dry kibble but his carrots are moistened; I use less water than recommended mainly because it cools down more quickly which is a bonus with him milling around my feet from the moment his carrots hit the bowl. He’s got less patience than I have, which is quite a statement.

i will certainly give the slippery elm a go since there are two votes for that. If that fails I can look at the yucca supplement and I can ask the vet about metronidazole when I deliver his samples tomorrow. Thank you both for the suggestions, very helpful!

[MerseyGrey]

4 minutes ago, greysmom said:

We already know vets in the UK are very different from the ones here in the States regarding diagnosis and treatment of more complex health issues.  Still, it seems some very basic things have not been tried or even thought about, unless you didn't mention them.

Number one - eliminate all medical causes:  Has he been actually tested for parasites or other intestinal diseases like Giardia?  Has he been actually treated for his diarrhea with rx medications like metronidazole, tylan, steroids - anything other than supplements and probiotics??  What does his bloodwork and urinalysis say?  Has he ever had an ultrasound of his abdomen to check for tumors or thickening of the walls if his intestines?  Have you had his heart condition tested by echocardiogram?

Once you eliminate medical causes for his constant diarrhea (namely - parasites, intestinal diseases like giardia and coccydia, IBD/IBS, etc), it's time to check in with his food.  Analyze the foods and treats you've been feeding him.  Do they have a common ingredient he *may* be allergic or intolerant to like chicken (even in minute amounts) or corn.  These are the two most common canine allergens, but there can be myriad others.  Have you ever tried a home-cooked bland diet for any length of time or has he always eaten a commercial diet?

There just seems to be a lot of questions unanswered about his treatment up to now, so thinkig about these answers may help.  Before you move on to trying a raw diet, I would definitely get to the bottom of the cause for his diarrhea.

Another speed reader! Thanks for the response. He hasn’t been tested for parasites yet. I’ve been gathering samples today and am going to take them in tomorrow. The only treatment he has had is probiotics, and he hasn’t had any other tests (blood/urine) done. No ultrasounds and no ECG. At this stage I’m not really thinking along the lines of a tumour, but I am worried that he might have mild IBD, but as I said I don’t really know so this is all helpful.
I can go back and look at the ingredients in RC to see if they have chicken, his current food chicken is chicken flavoured; not sure about the corn content of either. We tried to feed him rice after one bout of diarrhoea but he wouldn’t touch it. It was just plain rice so I probably need to cook it in stock next time. We also have a good book about home cooking dog food which is bound to have something appropriate in it. We aren’t in a rush to move to a raw diet - it’s a consideration for a later date. You’re right, lots to think about...

[greysmom]

Before I go further I wanted to mention the pancreatitis is a real possibility that should have been explored before now.  It takes a blood test and your vet should have thought of this 2 years ago.

A bland diet is super simple.  It's just a protein and a carb, cooked well, and very low fat.  This is the same protocol you would go through to conduct a food intolerance trial, too.

Examples of low fat protein: ground chicken, ground turkey, ground plain hamburger, poached mild white fish.

Stay away from game meats like bison or venison or rabbit, and exotics like kangaroo.  It needs to be plain simple protein.  Rinse ground meat after cooking to get rid of any lingering fat content.

Examples of a carb source: brown or white whole grain rice overcooked in low fat broth or water, oatmeal, peeled white potatoes mashed, sweet potatoes, any other whole grain like barley or quinoa cooked to mushiness.

Don't cook them in a broth which is from a protein source you're avoiding.

Fast your dog until the diarrhea stops.  Make sure he stays hydrated.  Then begin feeding with SMALL portions (about a 1/4 cup) of each protein/carb.  If the diarrhea doesn't start again in 2 hours feed the same again.  Follow this timing for the first day or so.  If there's no diarrhea after that, increase by 1/4 cup, but keep multiple feedings per day.

If he still has diarrhea, he has something wrong that needs addressing asap before it wrecks his digestive tract.  IMO.

[MerseyGrey]

Thanks GreysMom. I’ll bring up pancreatitis when I go to the vet today. No diarrhoea this morning. He had a poop before bed, and two on his walk this morning - his usual firm first poop followed by a softer one. He was eating grass on his walk and as soon as we got home he brought it back up with bile. I will mention this at the vet too. He took himself off to his corner bed so we didn’t feed him, but he has just shown some interest in breakfast so we have fed him. Husband is WFH currently and can keep an eye on him.

[JohnF]

This all sounds too similar to what was happening to Peggy back in the summer. It took two courses, ten days apart, of Metroniadzole and Syncuclav to clear it up. They didn't find any parasites in the stool sample, but I'm pretty sure it was Giardia because I've experinced that horrible diarreah smell many years ago with another dog (excess mucus was very much present).   A simple way to firm the stool back up may be to feed Chappie (Original in cans, not the chicken and rice version), it certainly seems to have helped Peggy.  I also give her Forthglade Beef and Rice trays, not the ones with mixed veg. Many pet shops stock that brand.

[MerseyGrey]

18 minutes ago, JohnF said:

This all sounds too similar to what was happening to Peggy back in the summer. It took two courses, ten days apart, of Metroniadzole and Syncuclav to clear it up. They didn't find any parasites in the stool sample, but I'm pretty sure it was Giardia because I've experinced that horrible diarreah smell many years ago with another dog (excess mucus was very much present).   A simple way to firm the stool back up may be to feed Chappie (Original in cans, not the chicken and rice version), it certainly seems to have helped Peggy.  I also give her Forthglade Beef and Rice trays, not the ones with mixed veg. Many pet shops stock that brand.

Thanks for your input. I dropped his sample off this afternoon but wasn’t allowed in the surgery, and it was a receptionist who came out to collect it. I will have to wait until they phone with the results to ask the other questions I wanted to ask. It sounds like it will take a few days for any results to come back so in the meantime I can look at other options for his diet to see if it improves his stool. It’s too warm to take him for us usual walk at the moment and he hasn’t shown as interest in voiding his bowels since I got home from work, he just wants cuddles on the grass, so I can’t see what his poop is like just now. I’m willing to try the bland diet but if it’s chicken that’s the problem it’s not going to help, so thanks for the alternative suggestions.

[cleptogrey]

Boiled white rice and 20% protein of your choice. Talk to vet can be Giardia or even a bacteria from bird feces which is difficult to both diagnose and treat. Discuss a!regime of antibiotics and ask about

Chronic colitis(flagyl for many months cleared it up)                           bacteria/parasite.                                Pancreatitis 

Dylan powder is preferred by some vets. Your pup may need a bl and diet for a while.

Good luck, be patient and communicate with your vet.

[MerseyGrey]

Thanks Cleptogrey. We are waiting for the results of his stool analysis. I spoke to the nurse rather than the vet when she phoned for payment and was told it would be tested for ‘everything’, which is vague but we will see what comes back. We thought that we would try him on a diet of rice and chicken for a few days in the interim but while there was much less poop it was still soft and quite slimy. He’s back on his kibble for a few days, so the next thing we will try is a diet of rice and white fish in case it’s chicken that is the problem. The food he is on at the moment has chicken protein, rice and oats (and yucca is also listed) but no corn/maize is listed in the ingredients.
Current poop report: it’s back to how it has been for a while - first firm poop followed by several increasingly softer ones. We also have some slippery elm powder coming today. I am very aware that we are changing and introducing things and am trying to ensure that his tummy settles to a baseline ‘normal’ before starting something new. Thanks to all for your advice.

[JohnF]

2 minutes ago, MerseyGrey said:

Current poop report: it’s back to how it has been for a while - first firm poop followed by several increasingly softer ones. >

But this can be quite normal for some Greyhounds who typically like to eliminate a couple of times before activity.  Seriously, try feeding Chappie original in cans. Too much chicken and too high a level of protein can be an irritant.

[MerseyGrey]

2 hours ago, JohnF said:

But this can be quite normal for some Greyhounds who typically like to eliminate a couple of times before activity.  Seriously, try feeding Chappie original in cans. Too much chicken and too high a level of protein can be an irritant.

I will do. We are going away for a few days next week - lockdown restrictions permitting - and will pick up a few cans for when we get home

[MerseyGrey]

We got the results of Buddy’s stool sample yesterday so I thought I would close the loop on this post. The only thing they found was a Protozoa called coccidiosis/ isospora which when found in solid poop is generally ignored but is treated when it causes symptoms. We were asked if he still had symptoms, because if his diarrhoea had passed we could avoid treating him, or we could choose to treat him with a course of antibiotics (trimethoprim). He hasn’t had diarrhoea this week but yesterday morning he ate a lot of grass to make himself sick again so we opted to put him on the antibiotics. I’m not a fan of using antibiotics in general but I hope that this will clear his infection (we were warned that it might not).

And then we just have to stop him from eating poop, which is the most likely source of his infection. The vet did suggest that this infection is usually seen in puppies and immunocompromised dogs, or dogs that live in conditions with poor hygiene. When we told her that he’s a poop eater she was satisfied that this was the likely cause. Just to be clear, we don’t really let him eat poo and are doing our best to discourage/train out this behaviour but on the few occasions when he has toileted in the house overnight with solid stool, I am pretty certain that he eats some of it. He also snaffles stuff on walks but short of using his muzzle (which we are reluctant to resume because of how he responds to other dogs when wearing it) all we can do is be vigilant.

In related news, the slippery elm supplement has helped to firm up his poops generally so that all his droppings are easier to pick up, which is some cause for celebration! We bought some Chappie as recommended but haven’t used it yet, and we will just keep an eye on his waste in case it’s required. We’ve got it if we need it. Thanks to you all for your advice.

[JohnF]

That's some positive news. Perhaps he needs some Omeprazole (human 20mg is OK) while you're giving those antibiotics which often create a very sore stomach lining.  Hope you don't need to use the Chappie as they like it and it's hard to wean them off; even more so with the Forthglade Beef and Lamb trays which I now feed Peggy along with Chappie. It was imperative to get that weight back on after her two flare-ups in the summer, so perhaps I can try going back to the more affordable kibble again soon.

[SweetPea]

On 9/13/2020 at 11:25 AM, FiveRoooooers said:

Another vote for Slippery Elm, it works well here for one of my seniors. 

This is really basic, but, with Buddy’s meals are you moistening it with water or broth? It has been my and others’ experience that too much liquid can be the simple driver of exactly some of the problem you’ve described. “Too much” is subjective. One of my seniors can only eat dry kibble, which along with Slippery Elm, has helped produce lovely poop and not soft serve. My other seniors get their kibble moistened with 2-3 turns of the bowl under the kitchen faucet. 

I know this is a post from two years ago, but I'm trying to figure out whether Slippery Elm and Olewo carrots can be given in the same meal?  After recovering from hookworms, and also medical treatment for diarrhea, our pup was doing great in terms of poops.  Then, all of a sudden, we're back to loose poops and some diarrhea again, with no change to diet.  We will be back in touch with the vet, but in the meantime, I'm curious on experience with combining Slippery Elm and Olewo carrots in the diet.  Thanks!

[FiveRoooooers]

I would try one or the other at a time, not both, otherwise you won't know which of them works. I've not given both simultaneously so can't speak to that, but it might be ok - definitely check with your vet. Probably a good idea to recheck for those pesky hooks, too. Good luck! Let us know.

[SweetPea]

Thanks!  Appreciate the advice!

[MerseyGrey]

3 hours ago, SweetPea said:

I know this is a post from two years ago, but I'm trying to figure out whether Slippery Elm and Olewo carrots can be given in the same meal?  After recovering from hookworms, and also medical treatment for diarrhea, our pup was doing great in terms of poops.  Then, all of a sudden, we're back to loose poops and some diarrhea again, with no change to diet.  We will be back in touch with the vet, but in the meantime, I'm curious on experience with combining Slippery Elm and Olewo carrots in the diet.  Thanks!

I agree with FiveRoooooers, I wouldn’t introduce them both at the same time, although Buddy was already on the Olewo carrots when we gave him slippery elm so we did feed the, together. The slippery elm didn’t do that much for him and we have had to reset our expectations of his poop. I’m sorry that I sound like broken record, but Buddy’s normal is poops which are on the soft side. 

We don’t have any experience of hookworms but from reading the many, many posts on here it seems they can be very difficult to clear and one negative sample doesn’t mean that your dog is free of hooks from what I understand. I’m probably telling you stuff you already know. Of course, it could be something new. I hope you find the cause

[SweetPea]

57 minutes ago, MerseyGrey said:

I agree with FiveRoooooers, I wouldn’t introduce them both at the same time, although Buddy was already on the Olewo carrots when we gave him slippery elm so we did feed the, together. The slippery elm didn’t do that much for him and we have had to reset our expectations of his poop. I’m sorry that I sound like broken record, but Buddy’s normal is poops which are on the soft side. 

We don’t have any experience of hookworms but from reading the many, many posts on here it seems they can be very difficult to clear and one negative sample doesn’t mean that your dog is free of hooks from what I understand. I’m probably telling you stuff you already know. Of course, it could be something new. I hope you find the cause

Thanks for your response as well!  We had started the carrots a few weeks ago and once on Olewo he was doing great.  It was quite the transformation.  Then all of a sudden, we're back to not so great.  So we may try adding Slippery Elm, and of course, retesting him since he's a recent rescue and hookworms were definitely an issue when we got him.  (We also have read a lot about greyhound poop so we are also changing our expectations of what normal looks like!)

[MerseyGrey]

3 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Thanks for your response as well!  We had started the carrots a few weeks ago and once on Olewo he was doing great.  It was quite the transformation.  Then all of a sudden, we're back to not so great.  So we may try adding Slippery Elm, and of course, retesting him since he's a recent rescue and hookworms were definitely an issue when we got him.  (We also have read a lot about greyhound poop so we are also changing our expectations of what normal looks like!)

Who knew that it was such a varied and interesting topic?