No Answers

[NemiNobbins]

We adopted our dog in August. He has always been a big mushy boy who likes to sleep and cuddle. He has always had an appetite and goes on walks no problem. When we adopted him he had hook worms and a dead tooth (we found out later).

 

Since we got him weve had trouble with his stool. Its always been diarrhea and sometimes blood mixed in. We had a few good weeks where everything looked normal. We figured it was the worms and the meds.

 

We got the tooth removed and ended up needing to go back since the first surgery opened and became infected.

 

The past week he has been acting strange; he is eating and going on walks but his stool has gone back to completely loose and always ends with blood, usually separate drops afterwards. He is hyper aware on his walks and doesnt seem interested in playing.

 

We arent sure what to do anymore. Weve spent thousands on blood work, medicine, surgeries. Its upsetting to us and we dont know what else to do.

 

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Anyone have a guess as to where to start? What to ask the vet? Were hopeless.

[macoduck]

Have you been following this protocol for the hookworms? It can take 6 months to a year to eradicate them despite having fecal tests come up negative.

http://prisongreyhounds.org/Hookworm%207-2018.pdf

Edited February 16, 2019 by macoduck

[cleptogrey]

after reading that you have spent thousands on blood work etc, get his records and try someone else. ask your group for referrals.

 

for the new vet:

bring stool sample in

prepare list of food that dog consumes

list of past drugs if this vet did not remove tooth

date of tooth extraction

medical history from your current vet

medical history from adoption group

 

it sounds like he is in pain. tooth- is it swollen???

the gut???most likely. your vet will most likely check for worms and maybe do a snap test for pancreatitis.hook worms can be pretty nasty.

 

vets will give you the record, they will not send it over.

 

do bring a copy of the protocol that ducky listed. it's a must!

Edited February 16, 2019 by cleptogrey

[NemiNobbins]

Yes, weve been keeping up with the deworming. He was taking a tablet every two weeks for 3 months and is now onto a once monthly tablet. I thought at first maybe it was that, but he took it at the beginning of the month so I dont think thats the cause of his current issues.

 

Regarding seeking a new vet, weve been to multiple which is why the bills are so high. One for regular check ups, an internal medicine specialist, and a dentist for the tooth. Im not sure seeking a new vet would provide any additional information at this point. All of them have said his blood work is normal, the extraction site looks fine after the second surgery, etc.

 

My biggest concern is that he isnt drinking water. At all. The food he has responded most positively to that gave him super normal stools is a powder that we mix water with. the vets kee telling me its fine since hes still urinating and has an appetite, but it makes me nervous that he hasnt had water in weeks.

[MaryJane]

Please don't use that protocol -- there is a newer one. The old protocol uses both the poisons at the same time and there have been neurological issues associated with it note, that this is an off-label use and the manufacturer is not likely to support it. There is an updated protocol that uses one and then 2 weeks later uses the other one.

 

Note, that my dog also had the hookworms and I did not use the "prison protocol", instead, I used the regular heartworm medicine along with strongid every 2 months for a total of 3 treatments and my boy tested negative. Will be retesting in the spring.

[NemiNobbins]

We did that too from the internal medicine dr and apparently it didnt rid him completely so this is kind of a last resort at this point

[greysmom]

None of my greyhounds drink very much separately from eating. If they have a good romp or run they do, but not until then. So as long as he is staying hydrated you can let go of that worry as long as he's eating his mixed up food.

 

I'm curious what, if anything, the internal medicine specialist said?

 

Hookworm has developed an extreme resistance to most normal worm treatments. It's been getting bad over the last few years and they are *very very* difficult to get rid of. Read through the "Hookworm" thread if you haven't already.

 

Hooks can cause all of the issues you're concerned about, and getting rid them is a must.

[cleptogrey]

If his stool is that bad then I have always been told feed a bland diet, rice and boiled ground beef, turkey or chicken NONE of the vets have suggested bland food to help with the loose stool, worms or no worms? Or even an expensive rx diet?

 

Everyone who has dealt with hookworm recently is right on the money.

[macoduck]

Please don't use that protocol -- there is a newer one. The old protocol uses both the poisons at the same time and there have been neurological issues associated with it note, that this is an off-label use and the manufacturer is not likely to support it. There is an updated protocol that uses one and then 2 weeks later uses the other one.

 

Note, that my dog also had the hookworms and I did not use the "prison protocol", instead, I used the regular heartworm medicine along with strongid every 2 months for a total of 3 treatments and my boy tested negative. Will be retesting in the spring.

I'm confused. Did you mean not to use the prison protocol or what the OP is currently using?

[MaryJane]

I'm confused. Did you mean not to use the prison protocol or what the OP is currently using?

 

There are two prison protocols out there - the old one that uses both heartworm and hook treatment on the same day and doses twice a month and a new protocol that doses one med and then two weeks later, doses the other med. The old protocol of using both on the same day or within a few days of each other has been implicated in neurological issues.

 

So, what I was trying to say - check with your vet and have them study what is going on here because no one has done studies on whether this is safe dosing so much in such a short period of time. They may also want to check with the manufacturers of the products as this would be an off-label use and one that the companies would probably not be happy with as they have not studied it and verified whether it is safe.

[Rickiesmom]

Does someone have a link to the new protocol with the 2-week offset. I haven't seen it, only the old one (which we did not use). Thank you!

[MaryJane]

Does someone have a link to the new protocol with the 2-week offset. I haven't seen it, only the old one (which we did not use). Thank you!

 

I have not been able to find the updated version of the prison protocol as the july 2018 still has dosing st the same time but, I did link to some other information that might be helpful.

 

https://www.myogga.org/2019/02/hookworms-and-racing-greyhounds-by-jennifer-ng-dvm/

[Rickiesmom]

Thank you - that is very helpful !

[Redfishingirl]

One of the protocols I read mentioned use of Psyllium Husk to help alleviate the diarrhea and I will attest that it does help firm up the stool while continuing with other treatments to try to eradicate the stubborn little buggers.

[Bizeebee]

Please don't use that protocol -- there is a newer one. The old protocol uses both the poisons at the same time and there have been neurological issues associated with it note, that this is an off-label use and the manufacturer is not likely to support it. There is an updated protocol that uses one and then 2 weeks later uses the other one.

 

Note, that my dog also had the hookworms and I did not use the "prison protocol", instead, I used the regular heartworm medicine along with strongid every 2 months for a total of 3 treatments and my boy tested negative. Will be retesting in the spring.

Do you have a link for the discussion of neurological issues associated with the Prison Protocol? Obviously the protocol is off-label use of the products, but I haven't been able to find anywhere to read up on neuro issues dogs have had.

 

 

OP - The main takeaway is that the current crop of hookworms are TOUGH and there probably isn't one "correct" protocol that is going to work for all dogs. And whatever does work is taking a long time. The hookworm thread is long but definitely worth wading through to see the other things that people have tried and had success with.

Have you tried Olewo carrots to help firm up stools in the meantime? They work (I assume) similarly to psyllium husk.

 

I'm not sure if vets do this, but for people, unknown digestive bleeding would probably result in an endoscopy or similar procedure to see where the bleeding is actually coming from.

 

As for water, you can actually buy a refractometer (it measures how well the urine is concentrated) on Amazon for like $25 and you can see for yourself (as often as you want) whether his pee looks ok. Although your vets should certainly have done UAs to confirm that as well. But if your pup is essentially eating their water (whether in food or with carrots/psyllium) and still peeing normally then I wouldn't worry about water. Unless you live in Australia where it is a million degrees, or the dog is showing other obvious signs of dehydration.

[MaryJane]

Do you have a link for the discussion of neurological issues associated with the Prison Protocol? Obviously the protocol is off-label use of the products, but I haven't been able to find anywhere to read up on neuro issues dogs have had.

 

 

 

I have tried countless times to get back to the original discussion but, have not been able to recreate the original google search terms.

[Rickiesmom]

I think this is it - when it was first posted I sent the link to a friend, so was able to find it in my sent folder.

 

FDA warning re. interaction between preventatives

[Bizeebee]

I think this is it - when it was first posted I sent the link to a friend, so was able to find it in my sent folder.

 

FDA warning re. interaction between preventatives

This link definitely has great information, but it doesn't actually mention the two drugs from the Prison Protocol (Advantage Multi & Drontal Plus). Nor do the four drugs it does mention - Bravecto, NexGard, Simparica, and Credelio - share the same active ingredients as the PP drugs. I'm no vet, but from the name the drugs don't appear to be in the same family.

 

Advantage Multi : Imidacloprid & Moxidectin

Drontal Plus: Praziquantel, Pyrantel pamoate & Febantel

 

Bravecto: Fluralaner

NexGard: Afoxolaner

Simparica: Sarolaner

Credelio: Lotilaner

 

Obviously, everyone has to make their own decisions for their own dogs, based on their vet's advice and what they observe. But I'm personally skeptical of unverified claims about neuro issues from the Prison Protocol. It's purely anecdotal, but we gave the Protocol as directed by the group who came up with it and not only did we not experience negative effects but it appears to have worked for our dog (we're due for a third fecal soon). I believe others have had similar success (in the hookworm thread).

I'd just hate to see a new owner scared off from a working protocol based on a claim without any evidence (as of yet).

[Daks]

This link definitely has great information, but it doesn't actually mention the two drugs from the Prison Protocol (Advantage Multi & Drontal Plus). Nor do the four drugs it does mention - Bravecto, NexGard, Simparica, and Credelio - share the same active ingredients as the PP drugs. I'm no vet, but from the name the drugs don't appear to be in the same family.

 

Advantage Multi : Imidacloprid & Moxidectin

Drontal Plus: Praziquantel, Pyrantel pamoate & Febantel

 

Bravecto: Fluralaner

NexGard: Afoxolaner

Simparica: Sarolaner

Credelio: Lotilaner

 

Obviously, everyone has to make their own decisions for their own dogs, based on their vet's advice and what they observe. But I'm personally skeptical of unverified claims about neuro issues from the Prison Protocol. It's purely anecdotal, but we gave the Protocol as directed by the group who came up with it and not only did we not experience negative effects but it appears to have worked for our dog (we're due for a third fecal soon). I believe others have had similar success (in the hookworm thread).

I'd just hate to see a new owner scared off from a working protocol based on a claim without any evidence (as of yet).

 

I think the issue with the Prison Protocol is that it wasn't designed by or supervised by a vet- Dr. Simpson who is mentioned in the original Prison Protocol PDF has come out and said he does NOT advocate using Advantage Multi twice in one month and that he originally called for the two medications to be alternated every 2 weeks.

 

AM is designed to stay in the system for a month (20 days active) and hasn't gone through any studies to see what double dosing would do, I think advocating for double dosing when there has been no research on short and long term effects is a dangerous road to go down. Some dogs may tolerate it fine, some may not.

[MaryJane]

I think this is it - when it was first posted I sent the link to a friend, so was able to find it in my sent folder.

 

FDA warning re. interaction between preventatives

 

 

Thanks for the link however, this is not the one that deals with the prison protocol. Although, this does provide an important alert for certain types of heartworm meds.

[MaryJane]

This link definitely has great information, but it doesn't actually mention the two drugs from the Prison Protocol (Advantage Multi & Drontal Plus). Nor do the four drugs it does mention - Bravecto, NexGard, Simparica, and Credelio - share the same active ingredients as the PP drugs. I'm no vet, but from the name the drugs don't appear to be in the same family.

 

Advantage Multi : Imidacloprid & Moxidectin

Drontal Plus: Praziquantel, Pyrantel pamoate & Febantel

 

Bravecto: Fluralaner

NexGard: Afoxolaner

Simparica: Sarolaner

Credelio: Lotilaner

 

Obviously, everyone has to make their own decisions for their own dogs, based on their vet's advice and what they observe. But I'm personally skeptical of unverified claims about neuro issues from the Prison Protocol. It's purely anecdotal, but we gave the Protocol as directed by the group who came up with it and not only did we not experience negative effects but it appears to have worked for our dog (we're due for a third fecal soon). I believe others have had similar success (in the hookworm thread).

I'd just hate to see a new owner scared off from a working protocol based on a claim without any evidence (as of yet).

 

 

I would hate to see a new owner end up with a dog having neurological issues because they used a protocol with a sketchy history of whether it works, no information on who devised it, what initial testing was done, and lack of general information that this is an off-label use.