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Out Of Ideas - Need Training Advice


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Long Post - sorry

 

We've had Atom since Memorial Day. He'll be 6 months old at the end of August and he's not neutered. I've tried everything I can think of to work through these issues and I just don't know what to do anymore, so I'm looking to the great trainers here on GT for some advice.

 

First of all, he's a great puppy! Happy, confident, outgoing, unafraid, social, intelligent - everything you'd want in a pet! - except that he is the most vocal greyhound I've ever encountered! When he's awake, he is constantly either barking or whining. I mean constantly. Every breath out is either a bark or a whine. And he has a huge deep bark for a puppy! And the most piercing, nose whistling whine. :rolleyes:

 

So everything I've tried has resulted in *more* barking and whining: verbal corrections (he just barks back at you), redirection (starts up again immediately after), more exercise (hard to get enough now that he's getting bigger), louder verbal corrections (I can still out-shout him!), more vigorous exercise (DH had him outside playing ball at 2am this morning trying to get him tired), take him out to potty (he does bark when he has to go o-u-t), feed him (he goes to a certain spot when he's hungry).

 

Even teaching a command both to "bark" and "quiet" result in more noise whenever he's not responding to the command. A lot of the time he's wanting something - a treat or toy are very common - loud - requests. I have even resorted to negative consequences - a squirt bottle and pop can - and he just barks back at them. He's not afraid of getting squirted or having the can thrown at him - what fun! a new toy! OMG!!!!

 

If I ignore him, he will bark/whine for literally hours.

 

It's not separation anxiety, or anxiety of any kind that we can figure out. It only happens at home. Last Sunday I had him at the empty adoption kennel so he could run around while I cleaned and got it ready for a haul - he never made one peep, even when left alone briefly in the turnout. Yesterday we had him at a neighborhood fair and he was meeting new people and new dogs, seeing new sights, having new experiences - again, he acted just perfect and we couldn't have been happier with his behavior and his reactions. The whining started almost as soon as we got home.

 

I don't think this is a "fear phase" he's going through - he has always been very vocal - but I wonder if it's just a puppy thing? Lilly was never this loud and obnoxious when she was a puppy at the same age, so we've never really dealt with this level of noise!

 

An AKC/Lure Coursing breeder suggested (to somebody else on a puppy page I follow) to get a citronella collar - one that sprays every time they bark. I'm not even sure that would help, but I'm willing to give anything a try at this point.

 

What am I not doing? Is this something he is going to outgrow? Do we just keep redirecting and exercising him to exhaustion until he *gets* it? Is there even anything for him to *get?* Do I just keep on rewarding him when I can get him to shut the freak up for 10 seconds?? I'm really getting frustrated here and am out of ideas.

 

Help meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....................................

 

 

 

ETA - Here's a photo of the little turdball barking at me for some unknown reason.

42870439805_050b52a786_n.jpg20180731_185650 by Chris Harper, on Flickr

Edited by greysmom

Chris - Mom to: Lilly, Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

35764734494_93de5b5963_b.jpg

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom

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What was different for Atom about being at the kennel with you, and at the neighborhood fair? What did he do at the kennel? Was there any music playing? Ditto the fair, although that may have been a sensory overload situation if there was a lot of new stuff going on. Just trying to think of what you could add at home from either of those events where he had been quiet. How about tying him to you, make him go everywhere with you all the time until he cries uncle :lol

 

Young'uns :rolleyes: He is cute though!

 

Old Dogs are the Best Dogs. :heartThank you, campers. Current enrollees:  Punkin. Annie Oooh M. 

Angels: Pal :heart. Segugio. Sorella (TPGIT). LadyBug. Zeke-aroni. MiMi Sizzle Pants. Gracie. Seamie :heart:brokenheart. (Foster)Sweet. Andy. PaddyALVIN!Mayhem. Bosco. Bruno. Dottie B. Trevor Double-Heart. Bea. Cletus, KLTO. Aiden.

:paw Upon reflection, our lives are often referenced in parts defined by the all-too-short lives of our dogs.

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All he did at the kennel was run around for 4 1/2 hours. He never laid down or even stopped moving until we got back in the car to come home. He was following me around as I cleaned up and moved stuff around - and got in my way a lot!

 

He already follows us everywhere all the time anyway, but the kennel is 2 or 3 times bigger than our house! He can run around outside in our big yard all he wants, and we do let him be outside for long stretches, but we've got things to do too when we cant be out there supervising! When he can run and race with the big dogs it does finally tire him out, but it's been so hot here that they don't want to run much, and just playing with us with toys or the lure pole won't get him tired enough.

 

Maybe I need to send him to day care for a while. I hadn't thought about that.

Chris - Mom to: Lilly, Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

35764734494_93de5b5963_b.jpg

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom

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To me this sounds like an energetic puppy with difficulties in self control and the ability to cope with boredom. He seems not to be a destroyer, when there is n0t enough attention, but a barker.

 

Does he follow you around as well or is he able to be in a certain place for a while?

 

Right now, he always gets what he wants - attention. Even verbal correction is attention - negative attention, but attention.

 

He might be the kind of dog, that needs to learn to get along without permanent attention and action. What he does not need: more exercise. The more he gets, the more he will get used to it and in the end you have a greyhound that always needs high level entertainment - even at 2 in the morning.

 

What might really important for him is to learn, that life can be pretty boring and that humans do not interact 24/7 with him.

 

What worked with my high energy, restless, barking dog, which is the first dog (and the tiniest, as she is a 4,4 pound dwarfish Ratter) that brought to my boundaries is: space restriction and ignoring - but not the usual kind of ignoring, but the turning away kind of ignoring.

 

As example: when I came home from work she screamed and barked hysterically. When I went out of sight, she litterally cried. When she wanted somethin, she barked, etc.

She still is a vocal dog, but like 80% better than before.

 

I turn away form her, when she barks. When I am coming home and she screams, I turned around and go away. Even if I was still at the hallway, haven´t entered the apartemant.

If she shuts up, I turn around and go further to where she wants me to be. If she starts making noises again, I turn around again and go. At the beginning, it took like 10 minutes only to unlok the door or leave the shower, but...it was the only thing that ever worked.

 

(More text to come, child awoke)

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Ooookay... Did I get it right, that his constant barking is the most annoying part, but that he also follows you wherever you go?

 

Are you home with him most of the time?

Is there a place, where he calms down? Where does he sleep at night and where during the day?

Is he sleeping - I mean, is there a time and place when he really relaxes?

Is he in a deep slumber or does he wake like whenever you pass by?

How many hours real sleep or relaxing rest and dozing does he get each day?

Is he able to stay at one place like a dog bed for a while if you are not with him?

 

Trying to figure out if your little guy fits in the picture I have of him.

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You answered your own question. He needs a lot more exercise. Day care might indeed be a good option for him! You might also see if any friends have a friendly lab or terrier that you could borrow on non-day care days.

 

 

Stop the corrections, verbal and other, for barking. Keep patiently working on your "quiet" command, and make sure there's a good reward for obeying that -- a bone to chew, a Kong stuffed with liverwurst, a puzzle toy with food rewards ... Even if he enjoys his reward for only a few minutes and then abandons it, that'll be a GOOD thing.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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PS You might also get him enrolled in classes a couple nights a week. Ouch, I know, the TIME! and time to practice! But it will pay off, trust me. Puppy obedience, tricks, nosework, swimming lessons … You or your partner should take him to obedience but a trusted friend could take him to other activities/classes.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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I have not had a puppy on 30 years, but will just throw a couple of thoughts out there.

I see validity in both Batmom and Rakete suggestions.

 

The only thing that has ever worked for me with dogs that start to bark / whine early in the morning to get me out of bed, has been to totally ignore than.

Give no response at all. It usually gets worse before it gets better, but it has always, always worked.

 

A friend has a 3 yr old CKC Greyhound that is hyper all the time. She got her as a 6 month puppy.

It actually leapt up and bit me last year when I was holding the leash for the owner.

She has done agility and other activities constantly with her since it was a puppy. Class after class. Practice and more practice.

I often wonder if the dog is overstimulated and has no idea how to just chill out.

 

Nancy...Mom to Sid (Peteles Tiger), Kibo (112 Carlota Galgos).   Missing Casey, Gomer, Mona, Penelope, BillieJean, Bandit, Nixon (Starz Sammie),  Ruby (Watch Me Dash) Nigel (Nigel), and especially little Mario, waiting at the Bridge.

 

 

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batmom said it! exercise and training! i adopted felix when he was 7 weeks old, so i am agreeing with experience. hormones really kick in around 7- 9 months and then al the fun really begins!! nip it in the but RIGHT NOW! felix did 3 years of training: puppy, basic, family manners, level 2,level 3, rally-o, agility, therapy dog and repeated some of the classes. it was worth every penny, he turned into a marvelous creature.

 

remember their skeletons are not fully developed until they are well past 2.5 yrs of age. yes, they can run but no coursing until then. i used a plant spray w/ water for the non-stop obnoxious barking. it worked. then i never really refilled it, just bringing out the both was enough! also, in training don't be fearful of using a nylon choke collar. the martingales are safe but for getting the message across we used this:snap-collars-2-800.jpg

it's the only collar that will fit right under the chin at the top of the neck. less time for the message to get to the brain. my whippet, who i adopted was trained for show with a thin nylon choke collar- he is amazing with it on, a devil with out it! it's all a matter of instructors, tools, consistency and holding your own. don't let those brown eyes melt your heart and head!

 

also felix played soccer every day, sometimes 3xs a day until he reached his double digits. we walked daily(until very recently) 2-4 miles a day, he played, ran, played, walked, went to school for ever. it's a real commitment to get them tired!

Edited by cleptogrey
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Rakete - some answers:

 

Yes, he will sleep!! Very deeply - as in so deep it takes a while to get him up. He will also go off on his own and lay on the deck outside or upstairs in the bedroom. DH and I are both retired, and we are both home most of the time, and we have three other adult greyhounds, so he's basically never completely alone - but I get what you're saying about his ability to handle being bored and quiet. He basically doesn't! He seems way more attached to me than to my DH, and he throws a fit if I leave the house without him. DH can come and go with little to no response from Atom, and he does leave the house much more often than I do.

 

 

Thanks Batmom! Yes, I'm looking into training classes and day cares. There was also a person on Nextdoor looking to arranged puppy play dates for his pup, so that might be fun too. He does learn things very quickly - he already knows sit and down - and I'd love to do some agility with him as I think he would love all the running and jumping! And I think he has the personality to be a good therapy dog in a few years.

 

 

Thanks Nancy! I think ignoring him is the way to go. I remember you talking about that puppy!

 

 

Cleptogrey the link for the collar didn't work? He is wearing a martingale now, but we mostly use a harness on him. We have him in a Ruffwear Front Range Harness that's fits him really well and is pretty adjustable. He also has a muzzle already since he was nipping and biting the other dogs when they play.

Chris - Mom to: Lilly, Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

35764734494_93de5b5963_b.jpg

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom

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You're on the right track, I think. It's just … he's a puppy. :) :) :)

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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I'm just laughing at the opposite advice you've gotten. In my gut, I agree with Rakete:

What might really important for him is to learn, that life can be pretty boring and that humans do not interact 24/7 with him.

 

But that might just be because that was my parenting philosophy because I was too lazy to play with my kids and I thought it was boring to push a wooden train around a track for more than 2 minutes. So they learned pretty early on to entertain themselves. I don't know all that much about dogs though. But I would try the turning my back thing, then turn back toward him when he stops whining/barking like Rakete said. I'm doing something similar with Percy now. He's gotten very hyper lately when I start to get my shoes on to take him for a walk. He starts getting nippy and boinking me with his nose. So now when he does that, I freeze--absolutely freeze in the middle of putting a shoe on or tying it or whatever. As soon as he turns his head away, I continue. He's getting it. And, you can actually do both pieces of advice at the same time. More exercise and ignoring/turning back when he barks and whines.

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I agree 100% that ignoring is the best way to address barking/whining for no cause, but this dog is too young to make much of that. At 6 months he needs LOTS of exercise and play and more exercise and more play. He has to grow his muscles, and he has to get his ya-ya's out so he can absorb any training. Guys his age have lots of ya-ya's :lol .

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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Ya-yas are the understatement! Pm me if you are interested in more info re: equiptment. Essential!!! Personally harnesses are great for injured dogs or older dogs. They should not be uzed for training. We just had a terrier mix in class that wasn't making headway with a harness or buckle collar. The dog is smart as a whip. When the correct tools were used the owner and dog had success.

 

Do you have your pup on a schedule? That really helps. Down time in a crate is a skill not to be frowned upon.

 

Also train on an empty stomach.

Edited by cleptogrey
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I have nothing helpful to add aside from the fact that he clearly has a lot to say! (And while i feel your frustration, it's pretty friggin' cute on this end of the convo bark.) I can see though how this would drive you mental lol!

Proudly owned by:
10 year old "Ryder" CR Redman Gotcha May 2010
12.5 year old Angel "Kasey" Goodbye Kasey Gotcha July 2005-Aug 1, 2015

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I agree 100% that ignoring is the best way to address barking/whining for no cause, but this dog is too young to make much of that. At 6 months he needs LOTS of exercise and play and more exercise and more play. He has to grow his muscles, and he has to get his ya-ya's out so he can absorb any training. Guys his age have lots of ya-ya's :lol .

Yep. Turning away worked with an overly enthusiastic Paddy Mayhem during his greetings, either with me or visitors. But Chris said in her first post that when she ignores Atom he continues to whine, for hours.

 

Another thought was diet. Im not sure what to suggest but wondered if something he is eating is causing a hyper activity.

Edited by FiveRoooooers

Old Dogs are the Best Dogs. :heartThank you, campers. Current enrollees:  Punkin. Annie Oooh M. 

Angels: Pal :heart. Segugio. Sorella (TPGIT). LadyBug. Zeke-aroni. MiMi Sizzle Pants. Gracie. Seamie :heart:brokenheart. (Foster)Sweet. Andy. PaddyALVIN!Mayhem. Bosco. Bruno. Dottie B. Trevor Double-Heart. Bea. Cletus, KLTO. Aiden.

:paw Upon reflection, our lives are often referenced in parts defined by the all-too-short lives of our dogs.

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Jan, he's not really hyper, just a puppy, like Batmom said! A very very active puppy! :lol

 

We had two great Dane puppies at the same time in 1993, and Lilly seven years ago, and all three of them together wouldn't have been as active as Atom! He broke one of his back toes just days after we brought him home. There was no keeping him quiet or restricting his activity. We did keep him on leash outside, but he was a maniac inside the house (which is only about 900 sq feet anyway!) the entire four weeks he was in a splint. :rolleyes: I could totally see him saving up some ya-yas from that!

 

We call it getting the yips out! :lol

 

ETA - Come to find out, there's a good day care about 5 minutes from our house, so as soon as he has his rabies shot next month, he's off to play his little legs off! We just have to survive until then!!

 

Also looking into classes for him!

Edited by greysmom

Chris - Mom to: Lilly, Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

35764734494_93de5b5963_b.jpg

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom

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I can't type now, but posting so I'll see this again when I'm on a computer. I think this is pretty straightforward actually, but that doesn't mean it will be a quick fix. As Bob Bailey says, "Simple, but not easy." ;)

 

In the meantime, I really don't think exercise is your issue based on your description and just knowing how knowledgeable you are, though I don't have enough info to say for sure. But if you want to work on meeting energy needs, you're probably better off adding mental stimulation. No meals in a bowl, portion out kibble in advance - some is used to reinforce good behv through the day, the rest is given through food dispensing toys (Bob-a-lot and Kong Wobbler are my favorite). Then some other food puzzle at least once a day with high value treats - Trixie are my favorite (on Amazon), as well as a snuffle mat (SO easy, takes you 2 seconds but so rewarding for the dog). And of course training sessions. 2 sessions of 5-10 min each is a good start.

 

Will post more about the behv itself later.

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Hyper was the wrong adjective. Busy boy active puppy was what I meant to say :lol Glad you found a daycare close by!

Old Dogs are the Best Dogs. :heartThank you, campers. Current enrollees:  Punkin. Annie Oooh M. 

Angels: Pal :heart. Segugio. Sorella (TPGIT). LadyBug. Zeke-aroni. MiMi Sizzle Pants. Gracie. Seamie :heart:brokenheart. (Foster)Sweet. Andy. PaddyALVIN!Mayhem. Bosco. Bruno. Dottie B. Trevor Double-Heart. Bea. Cletus, KLTO. Aiden.

:paw Upon reflection, our lives are often referenced in parts defined by the all-too-short lives of our dogs.

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The doggie daycare by me does a great job of tiring out pooches. I would just worry building endurance into your little guy! (And joint stress since he's still a pup?)

 

Sorry you may have answered this, but can he be kept busy with puzzles? You had said at the kennel he was running around not making a peep - mental stimulation sounds good too!

Edited by XTRAWLD

Proudly owned by:
10 year old "Ryder" CR Redman Gotcha May 2010
12.5 year old Angel "Kasey" Goodbye Kasey Gotcha July 2005-Aug 1, 2015

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Jen, we have a Wobbler and a snuffle mat - he wasn't overly interested in either, being not really a food hound. He likes treats, but he's not a fanatic about food. Though I will think about how to use them more with his regular meals.

 

XTRAWLD, if he was still at the farm he'd be running around playing all day wth his littermates, so I'm not overly worried about a few hours of day care a week, but I'll watch him for any physical effects. For starting out the runt of the litter he's caught up now! He has HUGE feet! And he weighs about 45 lbs now, double what he was three months ago, and about the same as Lilly weighed at the same age (she weighs 90 lbs now! :lol )!

Chris - Mom to: Lilly, Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

35764734494_93de5b5963_b.jpg

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom

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You really only have to worry about joint stress from repetitive motion, so long walks on flat pavement need to be limited when they're developing, but playing in a safe daycare shouldn't be an issue.

 

Chris, you may need to play around to find what your pup considers high value. I've never had a dog turn down meatballs unless they were really scared. ;) And in the beginning I make those things really easy so there's a high rate if reinforcement early on. Once they're really into them, then you make them harder to get more bang for your buck. :)

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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I walked 4 miles a day with Felix at that age.no problems occurred what so ever. But I did not bike with him on black top. It can be done But for short distances if you have a safe neighborhood. My friend has conditioned her now champion Afghan with road work. She looks remarkable, finished in very few shows and it helps with the crazies. Her dog was doing road work at 8 months of age.

 

The trainers in our agility class kept jumps low for Felix. Better to be safe and sound.he was over a year when he started agility.

 

As to running, we let him. At the beach, with littermate, playing soccer.

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