Kidney Disease

[cleptogrey]

I am just looking for some input as to how far gone Felix's kidney are. He has been battling with anaplasmosis and now lyme for a year. The tick borne diseases seem to be winning. Right now he's also dealing w/ pancreatitis, so what's new? so, a renal rx diet is out of the question. my vet has me loading him with carbs, select amount of kibble and he seems to love raw green tripe. She has given him anti nausea meds, 4 mg Zofran, pecid ac- 20mg- both 2xs daily, amoxicillin 1500 mg, and of course his thyroid meds.

 

He is loosing weight, the last time he was weighed he was down 6 lbs and it looks like he has lost more. A friend who is a vet looked and said on the IRIS scale he's a 2.His suggestion: tofu and quoinal- trust me they didn't go over well. We are seeing better days if it's cool out, some days he eats, some days- it's toast w/ trader joe's canned food just to get something into his gut. I'm feeding him at least 3-4xs a day right now, small meals.

 

The vet basically said it's all about quality of life. She also told me that one client w/ a Crit of 6 lived for a year, go know. There has been a slow decline over the past year and a half. Some days he is dying for a walk- we go. Every day the reflexes to catch the ball midair is there. Go know, he'll die with a ball in his mouth.

 

What are some of the characteristics of the more advanced stages of renal failure. I don't want to let him suffer. we are seeing spaciness and whining and just keeping him happy w/ his sandwiches and balls!

 

here's the last blood work and urine analysis. thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.

andrea

thanks

[tbhounds]

To be honest-his bloods don’t look too awful. Sure the renal values are elevated but his red cell count is great still. Was the urine sample collected first am? Is he drinking a lot?

You could offer egg whites to supplement the diet-egg whites are a very pure protein and are typically considered very palatable. Green tripe is excellent too.

[greysmom]

And cottage cheese, if he can do dairy. Oatmeal and fortified pasta also have protein.

 

It's all about getting them to eat. Once food is a chore, and not something they enjoy, you're not going to be able to get their weight back up no matter what you feed them. They just can't/won't eat enough.

[Busderpuddle]

Ruby has the beginning stages of kidney failure, and she will not touch the food they gave us no matter what. We decided after she starved herself for 3 days, that we were going to let her live comfortably, and when she no longer is, we know it's time.

The reason you are seeing the spaciness is because the urea nitrogen is elevated I am guessing. Same thing happens with people, and dialysis clears that out, it builds again, repeat.

Hugs and lots of sandwiches for your sweet guy

[cleptogrey]

Thanks for the food tips. Felix adores hard boiled eggs. I omitted the mention of that in his diet. I will try the cottage cheese as well. Tbhounds, so glad to hear that the bw is not that bad. The urine was the first of the day. What did you notice?

 

I have observed that he uhhus not drinking as much, but that usually happens when my dogs are on rice. It is all water. Also, he isn't urinating as much. Felix was the king of those long puppy pees.

[Remolacha]

Another protein source you might try is whey powder. Get the unflavored, unsweetened. I like tera’swhey because it’s grass fed.

[MaryJane]

To be honest-his bloods don’t look too awful. Sure the renal values are elevated but his red cell count is great still. Was the urine sample collected first am? Is he drinking a lot?

You could offer egg whites to supplement the diet-egg whites are a very pure protein and are typically considered very palatable. Green tripe is excellent too.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing that the values are not great but, not that bad. The urine specific gravity is OK and no protein is being excreted through urine. The bun and Creat in the blood are high but, that could be an "acute" kidney issue. However, checking further about the incidence with pancreatitis and elevated BUN/Creat - there is a large coincidence here that these values rise with how bad the pancreatitis is - so it may be the result of that. I suggest that you google for further information.

[Time4ANap]

Not to hijack, but for anyone who does need a kidney diet on this thread, Rocket loves the Purina RX Kidney Diet, both the canned food and the kibble. I really thought we would would face the same obstacles and he wouldn't eat the Rx food. He scarfed it down from day one.

 

I'm not sure what's in the kibble, but when Trolley and others are here, they are constantly trying to get into his Rx food - they love it too. Worth a try if you haven't tried it and need an RX kidney food. Rx is required but you can get the food from Chewy.com with the Rx.

 

Hope Felix continues his sandwiches and ball playing for a very long time.

[cleptogrey]

The problem is he can't handle the fats in the rd diets. Pancreatitis again! I will be researching the pancreatitis and elevated bun/creat.

 

All of the comments are pretty upbeat in my eyes. When I spoke last to my vet it was a quality of life discussion. Let's hope things calm down when the pancreatitis does.

 

So chime in with any other low fat suggestions. I'm a tad worried about protein whey, the kidney diets are low protein. He's both jack sprat and his wife all in one!

[cleptogrey]

ah-ha! one article that mentions elevated bun/creat w/ pancreatitis

http://scvsec.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Pancreatitis.pdf

[XTRAWLD]

I have to agree his results look pretty decent. I have done a pooled sample for urine to get a better idea of what is going on (collection of first pees first thing in the morning for 4 days) but the urine for the most part doesnt seem that alarming to me either.

 

Feeding small meals and often is key, when he doesnt want to eat, use his favorites. Sardines help a great deal over here as well as cooked chicken. Have you tried lentils? Keep in mind that their sense of smell can wane as they get older so you might just have to get a bit trixy. I know how experimenting with food going in means the risk of bad stuff coming out so it is a very fine balance. Keep us posted

[Batmom]

FWIW, our last kidney dog really enjoyed Honey Nut Shredded Wheat. Also poached boneless skinless chicken breast. Both of those should be safe for pancreatitis. The chicken would be more protein than you'd want but you might have to pick your battles in the short term (address the pancreatitis and get back on a better kidney diet when that's gone?).

 

 

 

Our last kidney dog didn't show symptoms until BUN/creatinine were way beyond yours. We saw lethargy, inappetence, nausea, ammonia breath, mouth sores. Hugs and hopes you don't get to that point any time soon.

[JohnF]

The results certainly don't look dire yet. I know its a huge worry, but if the dog is still happy I think you're doing good.

 

As regards quality of life with this nasty progressive disease, you probably want to let them go before they lose muscle mass to the extent that they can't get up without being all shakey, and also before they start vomiting too much, itch a lot and start to get bad seizures. Definitely after they determinedly they refuse to drink and tip the offered bowl over. I think most of us know when their enjoyment of life has declined too far.

Edited June 29, 2018 by JohnF

[Remolacha]

The problem is he can't handle the fats in the rd diets. Pancreatitis again! I will be researching the pancreatitis and elevated bun/creat.

 

All of the comments are pretty upbeat in my eyes. When I spoke last to my vet it was a quality of life discussion. Let's hope things calm down when the pancreatitis does.

 

So chime in with any other low fat suggestions. I'm a tad worried about protein whey, the kidney diets are low protein. He's both jack sprat and his wife all in one!

Some vets say protein is ok in a kidney diet if it is lean, which would work for the pancreatitis, but definitely ask your vet.

[Victor]

When our boy Gilgun was diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis, the vet put him on Royal Canin's Gastrointestinal Low Fat kibble. It has done wonders for him and he loves it too (we mix the kibble with warm water). He also received cobalimin supplementation until his cobalimin, folate, and PLI returned to normal. If Felix can't tolerate a kidney diet, perhaps this would help his pancreatitis?

[MaryJane]

ah-ha! one article that mentions elevated bun/creat w/ pancreatitis

http://scvsec.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Pancreatitis.pdf

 

 

That was one of the articles - there are a few more that were good. A few that I read seem to suggest that maybe the pancreatitis is worse than it is appearing because it has increased the kidney values. Look at some of the other papers -especially the ones from NIH - National Institute of Health.

 

As to food, home made works really well. You can control fats and the amount of protein/phos. There are some online recipes for home-made diets but, I think you need to get back to the vet and find out whether the 1st concern is the pancreatitis (fat) or the kidney (protein) and then adjust the diet accordingly. Fish is low fat (like tilapia) and if you use just 3 tablespoons in food twice a day (1/4 cup), that would be enough protein - so low fat and low but, good protein. You want to add more veggies and carbs white rice. All my dogs have been on home-made and my kidney dog (with the home-made diet) did really well on it.

 

You might also want to get an appointment with an internist rather than a general vet - they should be able to give you more options.

 

 

Good luck.

[cleptogrey]

the only internist that i know of is affiliated w/ a VCA hospital. she's young, not that much experience and i'll drive just about anywhere to avoid the VCA machine. I am taking all of your suggestions, trying them. we did do the sardine route for a while, then he snubbed sardines, did salmon, tuna and canned chicken.....all of his favorites from the past. no interest.

 

tomorrow i'm calling my vet since the new bottle of zofran isn't doing anything. i'll ask about adjusting the dose and also make sure they gave me the right pill. i did google it and it's looks like one of the generic 4mg. pills.

 

one of the things that she(the vet) wanted to do is X-ray felix when i went in 3 weeks ago. i think she's thinking more than just what the blood work revealed. the dreaded C, putting it mildly.

 

so, chicken is cooked, tripe is defrosting, pasta cooked, rice cooked and i'll nuke up some yams and potatoes. as to oatmeal and veggies i tried them when i needed to lower his ph. he hates veggies, i tried whole, puree, mashed, raw, cooked. oatmeal didn't go over too big when he was feeling great. when he's in the mood- some red sauce in his food, as long as we get something into him. wonder bread is his favorite today! yesterday it was animal crackers, graham crackers seem to always go over big time.

 

john, thank you for your description. that's what i needed to read. he's still catching his ball and toys today. ah, what having a younger wisenheimer whippet in the house will do!

[tbhounds]

Ask your vet about trying entyce.

[XTRAWLD]

I once got my guy going to eat a full meal by starting him on a digestive cookie....sometimes just starting gets things going. Shepherd's pie is also pretty amazing Fingers crossed to continue getting things into him.

[gracegirl]

Fenway battled chronic kidney disease for many years. He ate well up until the last week, and then his appetite really shut off. For a while he ate regular dog food with lower protein amounts, towards the end he ate royal canons prescription diet, both kibble and canned. That last week I could still get him to eat lunch meat, fast food hamburgers, boiled hamburger meat, I cant temeber what else I tried but I spent a lot of money on human food that last week. His body was simply done. Wednesday he was lethargic and not eating. I took him in for blood work and urinalysis on Saturday. His numbers were so bad that they wanted me to hospitalize him. I declined, took him home, and gave sub q fluids. We let him go the next day. Without question, I knew it was time. My friend is an e-vet and was working that day, so we drove him out to see her. He got violently car sick all over the waiting room. It was time. I was afrisid Id have a hard time knowing. I knew.

[cmc333]

A forum I was on for diabetic dogs (who seem to get pancreatitis an awful lot) suggested Earthborn Holistic Weight Control. Fat by DMB is only 7%. Protein is 25% and I don't know if that's high or low for kidneys. I fed that food to all my dogs, not just the diabetic one, and they all seemed to like it, even my picky dog. Maybe something to check into?

[cleptogrey]

well, today he's eating! i'm thinking of getting the low fat solid gold fish food, lower protein count as well. obviously, it's one day at a time.

 

Everyone has been most helpful, and it's appreciated!!!

 

Keep those good suggestions flowing!

 

oh, forgot to mention that we also are supplementing with Nupro- full of amino acids that are good for kidney issues....so i read.

Edited June 30, 2018 by cleptogrey

[MaryJane]

A forum I was on for diabetic dogs (who seem to get pancreatitis an awful lot) suggested Earthborn Holistic Weight Control. Fat by DMB is only 7%. Protein is 25% and I don't know if that's high or low for kidneys. I fed that food to all my dogs, not just the diabetic one, and they all seemed to like it, even my picky dog. Maybe something to check into?

 

 

25% is high. Low protein foods are about 15% from what I remember. There are a few dog foods out there that are about 20% that are sometimes suggested when teh dog is not displaying symptoms but some of the values are a bit off.

[cleptogrey]

i did some research, i remembered someone was very successful feeding solid gold to their dog w/ pancreatitis. so, today i'll purchase a small sack of holistique blends with ocean fish meal- if the store has it. otherwise, i'll order it on amazon prime. Holistique Blendz® With Ocean Fish Meal ® Holistique Blendz® With Oatmeal, Pearled Barley and Ocean Fish Meal Holistic Food for Less Active, Mature Dogs Crude Protein (Min.) 18.0% Crude Fat (Min.) 6.0% Dog, Dry Food, Giant, Healthy Whole Grain, Large, Low Calorie, Medium, Potato-Free Recipe, Seafood, Senior, Weight Control/Low Fat,

 

it comes pretty close to the rx diets from both purina and hills. so, with all the add ins and this- if he tolerates it, we shall see.

[greysmom]

low fat solid gold fish food

 

:lol

 

When I first read this you were getting solid food for your gold fish!

 

Glad he's eating a bit better - today!