New Male Difficulties

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

Hello all,

This is going to be kind of long winded because our new grey is giving us all kinds of trouble. I'm new to the forum, new to greyhound ownership, but experienced with other breeds (mostly lab mixes). My family (myself, my husband and our 7 yo son) adopted two male retired racers on January 1 from the same well established greyhound rescue. They were 4.5 and 5 years old, fairly recently off the track.

 

At the rescue, both males SEEMED very laid backed and relaxed. One of them has settled in very nicely and is docile and a very easy grey. Once the other one settled in, his true personality has come out, which as it turns out is kind of manic. I think he was sort of shut down at the rescue.

 

Anyway, the troublesome male has some aggression issues which include but are not limited to:

1. Growling / snapping / biting the other male grey over resources and attention

2. Sneaking on the couch and growling when we tell him to get off

3. Stealing things that belong to us and chewing them up (pillows) or SWALLOWING THEM WHOLE (sock, which he vomited up a week later)

 

When he began showing these behaviors I institued a NILF approach, he lost couch priviledges and we block it off when we leave the room. We continue to crate both dogs when we leave the house. When out in the house, I watch him like a hawk to try and make sure he isn't grabbing something he might swallow / hurt him. I also try and watch his body language very carefully so that if he starts to give the other poor grey the stare down I intterupt him to snap him out of it. It's exhausting and unrelenting with our busy lives, but I'm putting forth the effort.

 

I also consulted a greyhound-specialized positive reinforcement trainer in mid February. She encouraged us to establish firm boundaries and work on positive reinforcement training with waits at door thresh holds, practice drop its for when he grabs something so I can get it out of his mouth for his own protection, muzzling both dogs when needed / especially outside during playtime, and not allow him in the kitchen when we are cooking. He's improved a lot with me, but not at all with my husband. He continues to growl at, and has twice has snapped at him. Once when my husband was trying to get him out of the kitchen and grabbed his collar (noted, don't grab his collar) and the other time was last night when the dog was licking his paw while lying on his bed and my husband crouched down to investigate. He hadn't shown any bed aggression or sleep startle previously. My husband thinks the more obedience I practice with him, he gets easier / better behaved WITH ME, but the more he seems to be lashing out at the other dog and my husband, which may be true.

 

He is also an exuberant and joyous dog who is incredibly smart as confirmed by the trainer, and is really wonderful most of the time. But he continues to be somewhat unpredictable and about once a week he snaps and does something aggressive.

 

Help? Advice? I do not want to return him. I am becoming discouraged that the situation isn't improving significantly and he might be a danger to the kids coming in an out of our house. I can not have him continue to torment the other poor new grey who has been so so tolerant. Our trainer thinks he is trainable, but my husband has no trust in the dog. I can't be present every minute of the day to supervise him within the family.

Edited March 19, 2018 by thebuiscuitlady

[Banjoman]

How much feeding and training does your husband do? If the dog is responding favourably to you doesn't that tell you something?

 

I attend training classes and when a husband and wife bring their dog it is nearly always the lady who is doing all the work and putting in the effort while the man sits back and watches!

 

Can you attend a training class and handle a dog each? It will be good for your son too to watch and learn how to handle the dogs correctly. Even if you think you already have enough experience training your previous dogs I find it is good to have the regular attendance at a class to make you work regularly with your dog. It is a good social meeting for both dogs and humans too.

[NeylasMom]

It sounds like your trainer got you off to a good start with some useful behaviors, but for the aggression you need a behavior modification program that focuses on counter-conditioning and desensitization. Not all trainers are qualified to do behavior consults, especially when aggression is involved so if yours isn't she should be able to refer you to someone who is.

 

Some if the difference may also be in how you handle him or respond to his aggression versus what your husband does. Most aggression is fear based (resource guarding for instance is fear over losing the resource) so reacting harshly to the dog or handling the dog roughly will only contribute to that fear and is likely to increase the aggression. So if your husband is less patient, more quick to scold or correct, etc. that is likely contributing.

 

If you tell me where you're located I may be able to recommend someone in your area qualified to help with the aggression.

Edited March 19, 2018 by NeylasMom

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

Yes, my husband is less patient and is quick to scold.

 

I tend to ignore any growls he has sent my way, and make a mental note of the trigger to avoid or train around with positive reinforcement eg. give him a biscuit if he gets off the couch when told even if he has growled at me in the process. My husband thinks I'm allowing bad behavior by not responding, which maybe I am.

 

I live in Atlanta GA. I'll take any resources you can send. Thank you.

Edited March 19, 2018 by thebuiscuitlady

[krissy]

I'll just speak to the ingesting of objects. My youngest is bad for eating things she shouldn't. She is never loose and unsupervised without a muzzle on. Even overnight I muzzle her because sometimes she'll get up in the middle of the night and I'm worried she might get into the laundry baskets. When she's not muzzled she's in an ex-pen with a couple of safe toys that she can't eat.

 

Teaching a good "drop it" is also really helpful. If he's food motivated, keep a training bag attached to your waist at all times. If he grabs something he shouldn't, tell him "drop it" (or whatever you want to use for your cue, I use "off") and immediately throw a handful of yummy treats on the ground in front of him. Make sure they are reasonably high value treats (depending on his food drive vs. his interest in socks it might be kibble or it might be steak bits) so he will definitely drop the item to eat them. While he eats, praise him and pick up the item. Ideally you should also practice this with toys or other items that he likes to pick up but are safe to give back to him. In which case, once he finishes eating his treats, offer him the toy/item back and repeat a few times. This way he doesn't get wise to the idea that you will take away his item.

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

Unfortunately, I can't carry a bag of treats. I did that for a while, but then he started resource guarding ME when the other greyhound came near and would bite / snap. His combination of troubling behaviors are a beast. Just practicing drop it has been enough and he will now allow me to remove items from his mouth, mostly without a growl. He REALLY trusts me and loves me almost too much. I haven't even mentioned his annoying but tolerable nitting habit. I'm covered in tiny bruises, but I can deal with that. All that said, he is VERY food motivated and responds to it quickly. I was able to train him to stay off the couch in one evening by tossing him treats on his bed whenever he chose to lay there. He is smart as a whip. The other docile guy....not so much.

 

I've never met a dog like him. He's very emotional. He constantly uses his mouth to express his emotions.

Edited March 19, 2018 by thebuiscuitlady

[Hubcitypam]

My neighbors pit mix is also very vocal and mouthy. As far as the socks you have to train yourself. I speak as the owner of a notorious non grey pantie eater.

Maybe Midsouth can help you?

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

YES, I have become hyper vigilent about leaving stuff in snout's reach. I worry about when I travel because no one in the house will be vigilent without me. I'm seriously considering sending him and only him to the greyhound boarder when I travel.

[Hubcitypam]

When I had a zillion "Beauty school dropouts" The top of the fringe was my best friend. One did manage to clear it.

[NeylasMom]

YES, I have become hyper vigilent about leaving stuff in snout's reach. I worry about when I travel because no one in the house will be vigilent without me. I'm seriously considering sending him and only him to the greyhound boarder when I travel.

Honestly not a bad idea if they are understanding of and can manage the behavior without punishing it until you can get the whole family on board with an appropriate training plan.

These articles may help your husband to understand why the growl is a good thing and how to react in the moment if it does happen:

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_10/features/Why-Your-Dog-Growls_15753-1.html

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/12_10/features/Dealing-With-Dog-Growling_16163-1.html

 

I'll ask for a referral in your area on my force free trainer listserve and let you know what I find out. You can also look for someone on PPG's (Pet Professional Guild) site, or look for a Pat Miller certified trainer in your area: https://peaceablepaws.com/pat-miller-certified-trainers/

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

They greyhound boarder I use is in the basement of the greyhound trainer I've been using. She offers "bootcamps" for new greys with training issues so I'm 100% SURE she could handle him. She also offers greyhound specific obedience classes. I'd normally pester her when I'm having troubles, but she is on vacation and I'm trying to respect her little time off. Thank you for the links.

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

I also LOVE that you send me links from Whole dog Journal. My mom used to get the paper version of that back in the 90s. I used to read it all the time. I was a super boring teenager.

[NeylasMom]

I also LOVE that you send me links from Whole dog Journal. My mom used to get the paper version of that back in the 90s. I used to read it all the time. I was a super boring teenager.

Awesome. They're both from Pat Miller, who is my go to for well written info on force free training and bmod. If you're husband is at all a reader, I highly recommend her book The Power of Positive Dog Training. Or she also has a newer book focused on aggression that is outstanding, Beware of the Dog: http://a.co/d4AxfGM

 

So I remembered that a good friend and fellow force free trainer moved to Atlanta recently. Are you able to PM yet? If so, send me a PM with your email address and I will put you in touch with her. She has a fairly small radius, but she can refer you to someone else if you're not close.

[JohnF]

Nobody ever wants to, but I think I'd be looking at returning him, not least to keep your kid and any visitors 100% safe, for the benefit of your family lifestyle, and also for his own benefit in that he can land himself another home perhaps as an only dog or where there's a nice friendly bitch as a companion. None of you need your lives strained by the constant stress of having to second-guess the real intentions of a difficult dog.

[Walliered]

I am with what JohnF said. He needs to be the only animal in the house.

[BatterseaBrindl]

 

This is a LOT of stress for your entire family .... and both dogs.

If it was just you and your hubby I would say to keep trying and be vigilant.

Could you forgive yourself if anything happened to your son......or your other dog

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

Thank you all for your advice. With the articles, and discussion, I have my husband more on board with creating a lower stress environment for the troublesome dude (husband has been reacting harshly to his growls), and he is going to participate more in care and training so they bond more. Seems though I've told him 900,000 to ignore a growl and to be the source of good things, he needed to read it to believe me.

 

I am definitely feeling like there is no "right thing" to do with the troublesome grey. Returning him may still be the best option, but I really feel like if my husband is on board with the training plan I've been desperately trying to execute, he will improve so much, and I want to try that.

 

I'm hesitant to return him for a few reasons. We are a REALLY good home. I'm patient, experienced with dogs, willing to put in effort to get the dogs what they need and get what the family needs. We all want the same thing. When I've talked to the director of the rescue about the troubles he is giving us, his response was, "Gee, I'm glad we sent him to you. A lot of families would have given up by now", which is nice compliment and all, but not that helpful for us. We have a huge flat yard for "races", and both dogs love to relive their glory days by racing each other, and we take them for leash walks rain or shine to read their pee-mail. I worry that another owner would not be able to provide all of that or be patient with him. I'm pretty sure troublesome guy was mistreated by someone in his past. He has dropped to the ground and cowered once when I outside with them and just tossing a ball to play. He was also trained by an individual who got caught up in a cocaine scandal last year. The troublesome guy needs routine, and being a family with two busy working parents, and a busy child we have ROUTINE down to a science. We are down right regimented, and the dogs like that. And mostly, the troublesome dog seem very very happy and relaxed almost all of the time. It's definitely been two steps forward, one step back and a learning curve to see where his stress thresh hold is.

 

I hope I'm not making a horrible decision to keep working with him, but at least for now, I'm not ready to give up. I'm keeping the re-homing option open, though, and have posed this to the entire family. What I want to make sure we do is not make a reactive decision after he's behaved badly, but to think through it carefully.

Edited March 20, 2018 by thebuiscuitlady

[NeylasMom]

Sounds like a good plan. I didn't get a PM from you, so here is the info for my friend and trainer: Leigh Sansone, Leigh@ruffcustomers.com. She is fantastic (has seen some really serious aggression cases). If she is too far, she may be able to work with your current trainer or refer somebody closer if your trainer doesn't feel qualified to handle the aggression issues thoroughly. You're looking for someone who will do a full consult - sit down with your family and get a full history (as much as possible), ask detailed questions about your routine, the aggression incidents, how you responded, etc., discuss why the behavior is likely happening and realistic expectations for improving it, and then develop a behavior modification plan that should include a counter-conditioning and desensitization program with a detailed written report of how to implement that plan.

Edited March 20, 2018 by NeylasMom

[Guest thebuiscuitlady]

I can't use the private messenger yet. I guess I'm too new. thank you for the referral. I will reach out.

[NeylasMom]

I can't use the private messenger yet. I guess I'm too new. thank you for the referral. I will reach out.

No worries. I though that might be the case. You need a certain number of posts before you can use it. And my mailbox is too full and I'm too lazy to delete messages.