Hookworm!

[GreytXpctations]

 

I'm sorry...I'm feeling dense right now...HG+ may be more effective than other products at keeping the dog hook free once she tests negative? But will not help if the dog is currently hook-positive? If this is the case, I will ask the vet to switch Lola from Trifexis to HG+ once we've got these pests under control.

I don't know that HG+ is better than everything else, but I know that I and others have had tremendous success with it and the generic versions of it for keeping hook free dogs hook free. The Advantage Multi sounds good too, but I don't know anything about trifexis. I know that the only time my dogs have ever picked up hookworm, is when they have been other products than HG+. With three greys, it also doesn't hurt that I can pick up generic HG+ for less than half of retail brand name for the same ingredient dosage. $40 every 4 months is better than $100.

[GreytXpctations]

 

He was open to the prison training regime, but on a three week cycle because it better matches the hook life cycle. I used Drontal on Saturday, but he suggested switching to Panacur starting three weeks from last Saturday for three courses of three days, 3 weeks apart. He said the switch to Advantage Multi would be ok, but didn't know if it would work better than HG+. He didn't think that the Advantage Multi has to be given at the same time, since the theory is that the effect has to build up to a steady state anyway. He is of the mind that a sufficient dose of Panacur is more effective than Drontal due to the three day course of treatment. He did recognize that there is an issue with hooks and greys that seems to be relatively new in the last year. He sees enough greys to have already noticed this. Overall, he didn't say much that was different from what your vet and vet friends have said, although he wasn't leaning toward environmental in this case.

 

In better news, we had a firm, blood free stool tonight.

So three courses of Drontal and then three of Panacur, while on HG+ and or Advantage Multi? Are you going to give the Advantage Multi every 2 weeks? With or without the HG+? Please keep us updated.

[PaddysDad]

We are going to try a three week cycle with the Advocate, starting the day before the Panacur/SafeGuard, suspending the HG+ while doing so. I picked up a 125 ml bottle of liquid safeguard for under $25 and converted the mg/ml by my dog's weight to 13ml/dose (1300mg). It will be enough for all three courses (9 doses). We will retest after the three courses, unless we have any reason to speed things up. So far the other dog appears clean. Poops get picked up as soon as they hit the ground. I am debating getting another fecal done just before we start the next course on the 27th.

 

So far:

Drontal+ -week 1 (after indications of worms)

HG+ -week 2 (things improving by this dose)

Drontal+ -week 4

HG+ -week 6

Test positive for hooks -week 6.5

Drontal+ -week 7 (things improve after this dose)

 

The Drontal dosing was on three week intervals relative to the start date. The HG+ dosing was on the regular 1st of the month schedule.

 

Moving forward, starting 4-27:

Day 1-Advocate, day 2-Panacur, day 3-Panacur, day 4-Panacur,

Repeat every three weeks from start date for a total of three courses

Retest

 

If clear, I will likely stay on the Advocate until all 6 tubes are used up then switch back to HG+ if my other grey manages to stay clean through all this.

[LaFlaca]

We are going to try a three week cycle with the Advocate, starting the day before the Panacur/SafeGuard, suspending the HG+ while doing so. I picked up a 125 ml bottle of liquid safeguard for under $25 and converted the mg/ml by my dog's weight to 13ml/dose (1300mg). It will be enough for all three courses (9 doses). We will retest after the three courses, unless we have any reason to speed things up. So far the other dog appears clean. Poops get picked up as soon as they hit the ground. I am debating getting another fecal done just before we start the next course on the 27th.

 

So far:

Drontal+ -week 1 (after indications of worms)

HG+ -week 2 (things improving by this dose)

Drontal+ -week 4

HG+ -week 6

Test positive for hooks -week 6.5

Drontal+ -week 7 (things improve after this dose)

 

The Drontal dosing was on three week intervals relative to the start date. The HG+ dosing was on the regular 1st of the month schedule.

 

Moving forward, starting 4-27:

Day 1-Advocate, day 2-Panacur, day 3-Panacur, day 4-Panacur,

Repeat every three weeks from start date for a total of three courses

Retest

 

If clear, I will likely stay on the Advocate until all 6 tubes are used up then switch back to HG+ if my other grey manages to stay clean through all this.

 

Yikes! What a mission! Good luck.

[PaddysDad]

I also spoke with an acquaintance who adopted another prison dog from an earlier graduation date than mine, but from the same program. They also have been having a hell of a time with hooks since last summer. I know from speaking with the inmate trainer (I followed up with multiple trainers on multiple dogs for people when I was there), that this particular dog had to be dewormed multiple times while in the prison, and still all this time later, they are having issues. To me this doesn't sound environmental since that dog would have had hooks before, during and after its time in the prison. We had quite a few non prison dogs with hooks as well, that were just "treated and streeted". They all come from just a few of the same kennels.

[cgs]

My dog was positive for giardia as well as hooks. Vet said to test 6 weeks after beginning treatment because giardia takes a while to get rid of. So I'll retest him in 2.5 weeks and see how he's doing for both. I'm retreating for hooks with Drontal and Advantage Multi every 2 weeks until retesting, but maybe I should spread it to 3 weeks?

 

So far:

Week 1: Panacur for 6 days. Drontal and Advantage Multi on day 6 (that's when it arrived)

Week 2: nothing

Week 3: Drontal and Advantage (2 weeks after first treatment)

Week 4: Panacur for 3 days (3 weeks after first treatment)

Week 5: Will redose with Drontal and Advanage (2 weeks after previous treatment--will be 3rd round of this)

Week 6: nothing

Week 7: re-test (6 weeks after beginning treatment)

 

The vet was going to treat only with Panacur for both giardia and hookworm. I requested the drontal and Advantage in addition to that. The prison program seems to say to continue treating every 2 weeks until the hooks are gone. Paddy's vet says 3 weeks might be better. Who knows.

[GreytXpctations]

Who knows.

 

The big question, it would seem.

 

I like that we have several active cases on this thread, all comparing notes. As we start getting more successes and sustained successes, we can hopefully nail down a consistent treatment that works. If not, maybe it will point to a real need for a new medication.

 

i keep thinking back to NeylasMom's question about the kennels. If the routine distribution of monthly ivermectin and monthly to quarterly drontal as a matter of course to treat the symptoms isn't completely treating the problem, then we could be just cultivating a stronger, treatment resistant strain of hookworm, by essentially culling out the weak ones. This is how we have cultivated superbugs through the misuse of antibiotics, and pesticide resistant insects and herbicide resistant weeds through the misuse of pesticides and herbicides.

 

I have contacted people I know through my Aussie rescue network, as well as preservation breeders I am friends with. No one else seems to be having these problems to the scale that greyhounds seem to be having in this country. I thought maybe that the tough hooks were coming in with out of state dogs, but according to people in non-racing state greyhound rescues that I know, they are blaming the problem on Florida dogs.

[GreytXpctations]

I also spoke with an acquaintance who adopted another prison dog from an earlier graduation date than mine, but from the same program. They also have been having a hell of a time with hooks since last summer. I know from speaking with the inmate trainer (I followed up with multiple trainers on multiple dogs for people when I was there), that this particular dog had to be dewormed multiple times while in the prison, and still all this time later, they are having issues. To me this doesn't sound environmental since that dog would have had hooks before, during and after its time in the prison. We had quite a few non prison dogs with hooks as well, that were just "treated and streeted". They all come from just a few of the same kennels.

"treated and streeted"

 

I truly hope that we are not dealing with a "super-hook" then. The once and done approach definitely seems to not be working here anymore.

 

Your people must truly miss Bill, if you are with who i think you are with. He genuinely cared about the dogs.

[FiveRoooooers]

Just found this about using albendazole to treat hookworms in humans.

[cgs]

Percy does NOT like Drontal. He got his 3rd dose today. I smashed it up and put it in yogurt, but he'd suck the yogurt off the pieces and spit out the chunks of Drontal. Then I squished the pieces into American cheese and he wouldn't eat it, and American cheese is a very high value treat for him, as is yogurt. Then I smashed it up more, mixed it with yogurt again and added some kibble. He ate what he could while avoiding the Drontal. I took what was left and put it in a bowl. I'll give it to him again tonight before dinner. My daughter was up before me and fed him breakfast before I gave him the Drontal. Hopefully I'll have more luck when he's hungrier.

[NeylasMom]

It may taste bitter so mixing it with something wet where it starts to dissolve is probably not the best strategy. For pills that are tougher to give I always wrap in part of a Greenies pill pocket (enough to completely encase the pill) and then cover the pill in something wettee and high value like yogurt, canned dog food, baby food, soft cheese, etc. I would not try either of the things you tried this morning as he's likely to associate them with that taste now.

[cgs]

I think he'd eat the outside of the pill pocket and leave the drontal behind. Last time I just wrapped it up in cheese--wrapped tightly--but he just ate the cheese off and left the pill. I would think American cheese would have a strong enough taste to mostly disguise the medicine. Hopefully this is his last dose, but maybe I'll try the pill pockets next time. I just don't have high hopes for that.

[PaddysDad]

I have been using butter with great success. I started with a big blob and no pill to test the reaction, then a butter coated pill with a second blob in full sight as an incentive to inhale the butter covered pill. It works for my two every time now. They don't even chew, just swallow the "butter"

 

Paddy comes running every time I make toast now

 

It's tough once they get suspicious of hidden pills and treats. You may have to earn the trust back regarding treats/cheese with straight cheese for awhile. Their smell is so acute, once they recognize the drontal (or tramadol, or whatever they have decided on a bad association with), no amount of cheese will disguise it. I thought of butter because it is a sealer, lubricant and people food all in one.

[NeylasMom]

I think he'd eat the outside of the pill pocket and leave the drontal behind. Last time I just wrapped it up in cheese--wrapped tightly--but he just ate the cheese off and left the pill. I would think American cheese would have a strong enough taste to mostly disguise the medicine. Hopefully this is his last dose, but maybe I'll try the pill pockets next time. I just don't have high hopes for that.

Feed the hidden pill followed by additional high value food in a steady stream. The idea is you don't give him time to chew.

[cgs]

I have been using butter with great success. I started with a big blob and no pill to test the reaction, then a butter coated pill with a second blob in full sight as an incentive to inhale the butter covered pill. It works for my two every time now. They don't even chew, just swallow the "butter"

 

Paddy comes running every time I make toast now

 

It's tough once they get suspicious of hidden pills and treats. You may have to earn the trust back regarding treats/cheese with straight cheese for awhile. Their smell is so acute, once they recognize the drontal (or tramadol, or whatever they have decided on a bad association with), no amount of cheese will disguise it. I thought of butter because it is a sealer, lubricant and people food all in one.

 

Butter would never have occurred to me. I'd have to see if he likes it. Now if I could insert it into a whole hard-boiled egg, that might work! As for regaining cheese as a treat, I don't really care. I think it gives him gas, so it's not a food I particularly want to give him. He's been pretty easy, and there's not much need for especially high value treats.

Feed the hidden pill followed by additional high value food in a steady stream. The idea is you don't give him time to chew.

 

Ok, might try that.

[PaddysDad]

Everything is better with butter.

Just ask Bobby Flay.

[GreytXpctations]

The other important question imo,which no one talks about is what treatment if any are these dogs getting at the track throughout their lives?

We have plenty of track/kennel people here. It would be good to hear from them as well.

[RaineysMom]

we had to do a round of Dronal last year with Zeke as he's been on and off not eating for about 15 months now. He is very suspicious of anything you give him, won't eat much of anything, but damned if he didn't wolf down the drontal (powder) I added to 3 large balls of 88% ground beef. He wouldn't have eaten that at his regular meal time (just the beef) but for some reason he thought it was wonderful.... Go figure.

[GreytXpctations]

I'm starting to wonder if Lola's ongoing battle with hooks is not environmental so I've ordered a natural/organic yard treatment from here: http://www.wondercide.com/

 

Check this out:

https://blog.wondercide.com/hookworms/

 

I'll let you know how it goes.

I realize that it is still early, but have you treated yet? How is Lola doing?

 

I think I need to bring a sample in tomorrow. If she is positive again, I don't know what the heck is going on. She either didn't really get rid of them or my yard is now the problem. No indications with the other two yet. Side yard is back in service again.

[cgs]

I dropped off a sample today, so we'll see....

[LaFlaca]

I realize that it is still early, but have you treated yet? How is Lola doing?

 

I think I need to bring a sample in tomorrow. If she is positive again, I don't know what the heck is going on. She either didn't really get rid of them or my yard is now the problem. No indications with the other two yet. Side yard is back in service again.

Lola is starting her 2nd round of Panacur today. She had 2 rounds in August and recently tested positive again. I've treated the yard with Wondercide but can't really speak to it's efficacy just yet. Two weeks after she's done with the Panacur I'll supply a fecal to the vet. I'll keep you posted.

[buddibear]

picked up new 4 1/2 yo male from Derby as a foster. September 2017 Was given a "hook:" deworming . Went to vetting within 2 weeks. Dental, neuter blood work... the works. After the food change soopy poop started. Fecal showed 4+ hooks. 1.2 ml Ivermectin, Advantage Multi topical and 5 days of Drontal powder on food. Repeat after 2 weeks. Still pos for hooks. Start another round and poop looking firmer. 3rd month still pos and 1 more round but following month test shows clear. Next month test shows clear. So after 5 months poop runny again and test is 5+. Group has 3 fosters in same shape. I know this is costing the rescue group a bunch of money and holding up adopters who are very patient. UF Vets are calling this a drug resistant hookworm infestation and looking into new drugs.

[GreytXpctations]

picked up new 4 1/2 yo male from Derby as a foster. September 2017 Was given a "hook:" deworming . Went to vetting within 2 weeks. Dental, neuter blood work... the works. After the food change soopy poop started. Fecal showed 4+ hooks. 1.2 ml Ivermectin, Advantage Multi topical and 5 days of Drontal powder on food. Repeat after 2 weeks. Still pos for hooks. Start another round and poop looking firmer. 3rd month still pos and 1 more round but following month test shows clear. Next month test shows clear. So after 5 months poop runny again and test is 5+. Group has 3 fosters in same shape. I know this is costing the rescue group a bunch of money and holding up adopters who are very patient. UF Vets are calling this a drug resistant hookworm infestation and looking into new drugs.

Wow. That's good of you to try to make sure the dogs are clear before adopting out. Not everyone would do that.

Not a good sign of things to come, if this is in fact a treatment resistant hook. I just got off the phone with the vet and he is going back to Panacur from Drontal, now saying that Drontal doesn't seem to be working anymore.

Have these dogs been anywhere outside of your property and do you have others in the house that have stayed clear through all this? Thanks.

[buddibear]

My bad. looking at the pre-measured bags, it IS panacur. Last panacur few years was a milky liquid that was a mess to get down the throat. I do own 2 greys and a standard poodle who all have been solid poopers,so far.

[amalexia]

To comment on the environment thing: Our girl Cameron tested positive for the hooks antigene last week (we've had her since June 2017 and she always tested negative for hooks on the usual larvae test, but the test started the antigene tests on GHs becasue of the recent issue with hooks and GHs). We live in Montreal and hooks don't exist here because of winter and the cooler weather (for example, you only give HG+ for 6 months starting in May and NG for 8 months starting in March/April). Most vets are not well versed about hooks. So it does not seem like it's an environmental thing (Cameron can't really have gotten infected in our non-hook environment so she most likely brought them over when adopted her).

 

Our vet is very GH savy and has been reading up on the hooks issue. All new GHs he has seen in the past year have an issue with hooks which are not treatable with the usual deworming. Now this might be a controversy but he doesn't agree with the Prison Greyhound treatment plan. He's the professional and I trust him so, at this point, am not raising this with him as an issue. Cameron has barely been exhibiting signs of hooks (she'll get a softer stool here and there but we've always chalked it up to something else since her tests came back negative). At this point for us, I feel like we can trust him. In any case, he switched us from HG+ to Advantage Multi, monthly dose and he said we would keep that until she tests negative on the antigene test. My plan is to get a new test done in six months and see where we are at (unless she starts showing additional symptoms).