No Warning Before Strike - Is There A Way Around This?

[Guest straygoat]

Is there a way to train my grey to give warnings to other dogs that are getting too close? She is usually okay with other dogs, but if there's one she doesn't like, she can lunge in a split-second. I'd like her to at least growl or something first, so i have chance to pre-empt and stop the lunge. Obviously, I keep her away from strange dogs as much as possible, but sometimes other people have dogs running loose because their dog 'is fine, he is just playing'.

[Houndtime]

Following because I am in just about the same situation.

[MaryJane]

Your dog is probably giving warnings/signals before the event happens, it is just that most people are not keyed into recognizing these signals for what they are. If a dog starts licking the lips, looking away, pulling back a bit .. these are just some of the signals that a dog can give when they are not comfortable in a situation. There are some great books out there on signals that dogs give when they are uneasy - hopefully some people can recommend some.

 

Note, once you recognize the signal, you can then try to de-escalate the situation and that would hopefully result in "no strikes".

[greysmom]

Do a search here for threads on "leash reactivity."

 

There is also a lot of information in this book by renowned trainer Patricia McConnell

"Feisty Fido: Help for the leash reactive dog"

https://smile.amazon.com/Feisty-Fido-Help-Leash-Reactive-Dog-ebook/dp/B001DA99CG/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1503708698&sr=8-12&keywords=patricia+mcconnell

[Scoutsmom]

You don't say where you are. Here in Portland, the Oregon Humane Society gives classes for "the reactive dog". You might want to see if there is something similar where you live.

[JohnF]

Peggy is like that for cats and there's no way to stop it other than to be vigilant for cats myself.

 

Good dog to dog behaviour depends on them interacting by using the correct body language signals, generally called 'Calming Signals'. But, just like human teenagers, some of them don't even want to give the other dog the benefit of the doubt, indeed some dogs are so stressed on watching out for danger that the other dog probably never gets a chance to forestall a lunge. Crazy lunging dogs need to be kept on a harness and a strong short lead and wear a muzzle in public. It can go on for years.

 

Always keep such a dog on the opposite side of you to the other dog, walk around the other dog in an obvious arc too. But if the other dog is a horrible mean dog anyway then it has no right to be loose or uncontrolled and you can take whatever defensive measures deemed necessary.

 

I saved a link a while back from a lady called Lisa on the Greyhound Gap website. I hope they don't mind it being repeated here, but I think it is pertinent and helpful. Lisa 73 says: 23rd Dec 2008, 12:04 pm

"Sadly greyhounds are very different to 17 stone mastiffs and are very sensitive dogs You start to make every single decision for a greyhound your going to end up with a nervous wreck infact most dogs it sounds very CM to be honest. Greyhounds need to be controlled safely whilst being re socialised but need to be allowed to think and learn for themselves with you gently taking the helm and they do need to realise that there is reward with the good and their are consequences for mistakes ie a removal of privelage at the time not a removal of ALL privelages so they need to look to you to move or lie.

This isnt a general behaviour its a conditioned behaviour and its not the dogs fault its what humans did to the dogs and it needs training out but with lots of positive reward based training your basically unprogramming everything the dog has been programmed with for the last however many years.

I agree the dogs need to be walked individually till you learn each dogs triggers and how to handle them. The two together will become a pack and will wind each other up and it gets embarrasing and hard to handle.

The main thing with greyhounds is keeping them and other dogs safe whilst you work through it BUT you have to look calm and in control at all times. Its often your reaction to your greyhound misbehaving that freaks other people out when they start as you look more out of control than they do. I know ive been there keep your voice calm but firm and low.

I hate seeing greyhounds being walked out on lose leads and I know with leash aggresion it breaks all the rules BUT greyhounds have been taught to walk by your side and rarely pull in front at least they shouldnt be. So having all that lose lead is just asking for trouble when a dog walks over. I keep my greyhounds in close on a short lead how they have always been taught to walk so they are right in at my hip. Try as suggested using a harness and a leather collar on a double ended leader I would avoid a halti as with a hound its the shoulders, legs and body that do the pushing forward and that is what you need control of. If the dog is in short by your side you need to start watching and learning your dogs early warning signals and react before they lunge.

If you walk the dogs seperatly you will start to notice when they begin to do something there is a change in body language, be that a wimper, the dog goes stiff the ears go up there will be a sign. With a prey driven hound this is the time you need to react. The second the ears go up just a slight pull on the lead into you and a "leave it" or "enough" command but given in a calm but low deep voice. The dog should relax, the second it goes to try again (because it will) the same again. You have to keep on top of the beginning behaviour to stop the full lunge and screaming spinning that follows. Once you have got into that situation you have lost control and the hound wont calm till the offending object has moved on. This always sets the prescedent then and each consecutive dog you meet the behaviour will get worse. If you follow the leash aggresion rules at this point and have a dog on a nice lose lead you will end up with a greyhound launching vertical from the ground around 6ft into the air they are reacting on lead for a completly different reason than other dogs its not fear its aggitation, frustration and prey.

Again as said work on a leave it command in the house and work on a watch me. This can be done simply enough with food. Hold food slightly to the side of you level with your head, the hound will naturally look to the food. Dont say a word before long the dog will look at you like your stupid for not offering the food the second the dog gives you eye contact reward!!! Once you have it so the dog naturally looks at you each time then you can add the watch me command.

When you get use to the dogs behaviour on the lead and you have the dog on a firm lead as you walk past a dog the second the ears go up, leave it, if the dog leaves, follow with a watch me, if the dog looks at you reward.

Once you have the dogs passing other dogs safer on a tighter lead that is when you can start to work giving them more freedom BUT and others ie trainers may disagree I strongly believe that at ALL times you are walking multiple greyhounds they should ALWAYS be on a short lead and into your hip. Its what they know and one thing trained into them from an early age that you can use to your benefit when keeping other dogs and your own dogs safe. Should a terrier boulder over into two greyhounds walking on short leads you can keep their heads up and stop them doing damage getting in for a hit of a smaller dog. Even muzzled they can do a lot of damage. "

[Guest straygoat]

You don't say where you are. Here in Portland, the Oregon Humane Society gives classes for "the reactive dog". You might want to see if there is something similar where you live.

 

I'm in the UK. There are only a couple of behavioural classes nearby, one is fully booked (because it is good), the other one is more for puppies and said they wouldn't recommend an ex-racer come along.

[turbotaina]

Do a search here for threads on "leash reactivity."

 

There is also a lot of information in this book by renowned trainer Patricia McConnell

"Feisty Fido: Help for the leash reactive dog"

https://smile.amazon.com/Feisty-Fido-Help-Leash-Reactive-Dog-ebook/dp/B001DA99CG/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1503708698&sr=8-12&keywords=patricia+mcconnell

 

Just wanted to second this recommendation - I responded to your comment in the other thread recommending the same booklet. It's available online; I'm sure you'd be able to get it in the UK. You may also want to see if you can set up a session with a force-free trainer or behaviorist to provide an assessment and training recommendations. In fact, I would do that before enrolling your pup in a class with other dogs, which may exacerbate her issues.

Edited August 29, 2017 by turbotaina

[Guest Amber]

What does she do other than lunge? Is it a predatory lunge or does she want to drive them away?

 

If She is just telling the other dog to back off out of her face; she will already have given signals that the other dog is too dense to understand so TBH, I don't really see that as being your dog's problem. If she follows up the lunge with a bite or attack then that is a problem.

[Guest straygoat]

No, it is a drive them away lunge. She has bitten once - another greyhound on the neck. Now, I keep her head away from other dogs completely but would like to change her behaviour if possible. There are other dogs that she is fine with, though I now keep her head away from those too. She is fine with my other dog, who is a corgi/jack russell cross, so much smaller than her (and a lot older). I think it is some sort of fear aggression, as the bigger the dog, the more het up she gets. I wonder if they have tried to breed her at some point as any dog that tries sniffing her underneath is in a lot of trouble.

[Guest Amber]

Well she sounds a little bit touchy and sharp. Is it with every unknown dog that approaches or just male dogs or does it depend on the other dog's attitude?

 

I'm not sure about you keeping her head away (well it depends...how are you doing it?). If she has her head turned away by you, then she cannot give her natural keep away signals, if you see what I mean? Totally understand why you would want her not be nose to nose after she bit the other greyhound but being on a leash and having her head held tight and turned away means she cannot use her own language to communicate to other dogs.

 

I would try to find a good local trainer or behaviourist (someone who uses reward based methods) to help you with her interactions. Keeping within a distance she is comfy with is what you are already doing but you need to learn to cope with those tricky situations where other dogs come over (which isn't easy but a good trainer will be able to help).

 

Although it is not something that we Brits like doing, being her personal bouncer and keeping loose dogs right away from her personal space in as calm and confident a manner as you can, is the best solution I found for my own reactive dog. By all means, keep up with controlled socialisation with a group or a good trainer with polite, well mannered stooge dogs but maybe just accept that out on walks, she needs her personal space and it's your job to keep other dogs away (or she will make it her job...). It doesn't make walks especially relaxing but I found does help a LOT and once your dog trusts you to protect them, then they start to relax and a much better, all round friendlier and less tense atmosphere out on walks. Also, try to walk in the same place and same time every day, so that you get to know the local dog walkers and people will learn to avoid you if their dog tends to wind her up, but you can get more friendly and walk together with quiet, well mannered 'mind their own business' dogs, to increase her confidence.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Amber

[Guest straygoat]

Every unknown dog. The one she bit was a timid female, and she has snapped at a 'sniffy' male and an old female lurcher who started to sniff at her too. She's fine with my male dog, fine with a couple of little male dogs she met in her first week with us (they sneakily sniff at the back of her and she doesn't even bother looking - but I keep her head out of the way, just in case), and there's a bigger male dog that she met early on and is friendly with.

By keeping her head out of the way, I mean just holding her out of striking distance. She can still look at the dogs face on etc. I'm not having to forcibly hold her back or anything, she is quite happy to be standing there. It is only when dogs get close to her.

 

Finding a trainer nearby has proved to be extremely difficult.

[Guest Amber]

How bad was the bite to the other greyhound? As she bit a timid female (who presumably wasn't doing anything to annoy her but was within striking range) I may be tempted to muzzle your girl out on walks. I know it's not a great solution and has its drawbacks too but at least you could then relax a bit more (and also people may keep their dogs away more). I used to muzzle my boy if we went to the park or somewhere like that as although he normally just air snapped , he did on one occasion rip a small hole in a dog that ran over very fast. Once his behaviour and socialisation improved a lot, I could walk him unmuzzled without worrying, as he had learnt to cope better.

[Guest straygoat]

The bite was a single puncture wound, but fairly deep so needed internal and external stitches. Cost me a fortune! I'd prefer to keep her away from other dogs than muzzle her on the lead (sorry, you say 'leash'), because she will only walk a few paces before she starts smashing her head into me or anything else that might get the muzzle off. I know greys are supposed to be used to having muzzles on, but my one doesn't like it at all.

The only time I muzzle her is first thing in the morning when I let her off in the nearby park (after checking it is deserted). She will do a quick sprint with the muzzle on, then slow to a walk and try to get it off, at which point I put her back on the lead, take the muzzle off and she walks fine.

Did your boy's behaviour and socialisation improve over time naturally, or did it come as a result of training? I've had my grey for nearly 6 months now and her behaviour is changing. She is more relaxed in the house, but has started to take on guard duties. That's just her natural instinct I expect, and it doesn't help that my terrier does the same (but only at night).

[Guest Amber]

It took a long time and a lot of mistakes before my lad improved. Went to see several different trainers but really the only one who made a difference was the one who taught me to keep loose dogs away and simultaneously to keep my own dog under control.

 

I loved him to bits but he really wasn't suitable for a first time novice dog owner, as I was at the time. He had been racing up till age 5, so all that was difficult to retrain.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Amber