Yowch! Bad Bite, Muzzle Psa

[Guest CleverJason]

Well, it finally happened. Baron has always been sensitive about his paws, and last night, I must have hit a sore spot, because he bit me hard. Broke the skin on my hand in two places. So I have two things to say:

 

First, don't be afraid to muzzle if you think your dog is hurting. He/She doesn't understand that you're trying to help and may retaliate.

Two, how should I deal with this? Is it possible to train a dog not to bite in self defense? I'm angry that he bit me so hard, but I understand that he was just protecting himself.

[greysmom]

How do you deal with this? As a learning experience for the human being in the equation. Don't take it personally, and there is absolutely no reason for you to be mad at your dog about this.

 

Your dog did nothing wrong. What he did was instinctual and automatic. Sometimes time and building up of trust will lessen the instinct, but it will always be there. And he doesn't even remember that it happened at this point anyway.

 

Remember to use a muzzle in the future and move on.

[Remolacha]

How do you deal with this? As a learning experience for the human being in the equation. Don't take it personally, and there is absolutely no reason for you to be mad at your dog about this.

 

Your dog did nothing wrong. What he did was instinctual and automatic. Sometimes time and building up of trust will lessen the instinct, but it will always be there. And he doesn't even remember that it happened at this point anyway.

 

Remember to use a muzzle in the future and move on.

this ^ I know it hurts, and probably hurt your feelings as well. I've been bitten, but honestly, if you think about how big his teeth are, and how powerful his jaws, he didn't really bite you that hard if it just broke the skin and maybe bled a little. It was a warning, hey, that hurt, back off. Don't take it personally Now you know, he really doesn't like his feet messed with, so muzzle him when you need to do something with his feet.

[XTRAWLD]

Dogs have ways of communicating....this was one of them. And many of us have been there, done that. Sorry you got bit but clearly he was feeling protective of his paws. Did you find anything?

[Guest CleverJason]

Dogs have ways of communicating....this was one of them. And many of us have been there, done that. Sorry you got bit but clearly he was feeling protective of his paws. Did you find anything?

 

No, I didn't. I'm wondering if maybe I just startled him, although he was watching me, so that seems unlikely. Either way, when I muzzled him and took a look, he didn't seem to mind then. The only one with a hurt paw at my house is me

[Guest k9soul]

Just a thought, but if he was picking up on your tension it might have had something to do with his reaction. Once the muzzle was on, if you weren't feeling as tense, that may be why he didn't react. I'm sorry you were hurt. I haven't been bitten but I have been startled by a snarl/lunge and it just takes a bit of time to get over it psychologically (for me anyway).

[Batmom]

Ouch .

 

Sorry you were hurt.

 

I had a dog who was sweet as can be ... but he did not like to be closely examined in any way. Muzzled if I had to do that. It's a good thing about ex racers -- they're used to those muzzles so no big deal to pop one on if in doubt.

[3greytjoys]

Limited information in your post leaves me unclear about the situation (hound's paw injury, hound's location, standing or lying down during paw handling).

My heart hound boy (who lived to almost 14) was extremely sensitive when being handled for wound care, Several things that helped...

 

- Agree with muzzling first.

 

- If looking for foreign bodies in paw pads, a quick photo can be taken for closer (zoom) inspection on computer. Helps to photograph the dry pad, and then wet pad.

 

- I keep Clotisol product here to help stop excessive bleeding for all our hounds. It's a quick-drying liquid that can be squirted on bleeding wounds from a distance.

Clotisol: http://www.entirelypets.com/clotisol2oz.html

 

- Take Barron's muzzle to veterinary appointments, or alert your vet to muzzle him before physical exams.

 

- As difficult as it is, please do not punish a dog for growling/biting when the dog was defending himself. Remember anger begets anger in both human and animal species. Baron will lose trust in you, and it will make it much more difficult for you and professional veterinary staff to handle him in the future. (Our hound wouldn't let anyone, other than me, handle him, and he needed to be under anesthesia for veterinary tests that could normally be done without drugs.)

 

My quote from a recent thread: "We knew to respect his resting space. Whenever he was standing up we treated him kindly and respectfully with positive verbal rewards and love in all interactions. He arrived very untrusting of any humans touching his body, so during nail clipping he was muzzled + happily fed treats (from second human sitting down) through his muzzle, etc. We ensured he stood far away from his "personal safe zones" of his beds or crates during tooth brushing, grooming, pill administration, wound care, etc."

 

I hope your hand heals quickly. If this has gotten reported, please contact the Lexus project to help you and Barron. http://www.thelexusproject.org/

 

[NeylasMom]

Well, it finally happened. Baron has always been sensitive about his paws, and last night, I must have hit a sore spot, because he bit me hard. Broke the skin on my hand in two places. So I have two things to say:

 

First, don't be afraid to muzzle if you think your dog is hurting. He/She doesn't understand that you're trying to help and may retaliate.

Two, how should I deal with this? Is it possible to train a dog not to bite in self defense? I'm angry that he bit me so hard, but I understand that he was just protecting himself.

Its possible to make him more comfortable with having his paws handled so he doesn't feel he needs to defend himself. You should seek out the help of a professional if possible, someone well versed in behavior issues who uses reward based training.

 

Also, ideally muzzles should never be used to put a dog in a situation you wouldn't otherwise. Better to work on a behavior modification program while he's not injured to try to modify his response. You can still use the muzzle for safety in case something goes wrong with the training accidentally - that's actually the appropriate use for muzzles.

[GeorgeofNE]

I hope you meant your were angry at yourself for setting the dog up to "fail." You deal with it by being a bit smarter next time. It was not the dog's fault.

 

My Buck is a very mild mannered boy, until I cut his nails. So I put his muzzle on. 10 seconds of prevention is well worth it.

 

I'm sorry you were hurt. I really am. Make sure you keep the wound clean.

 

My father, one of the most dog savvy people I have ever met, startled one of his dogs many years ago, and walked away with a puncture wound to the throat. He was too embarassed to go to the doctor and ended up in the hospital a few days later on IV antibiotics. He wasn't angry at the dog--he was angry at himself.

[palmettobug]

I felt the same way when Johnny bit me--felt so dumb and angry at myself for thinking he'd behave like a Lab. I knew it wasn't his fault.

 

He also doesn't like his feet to be messed with, I let other people trim his nails and give them the muzzle and the caveat. Better safe than sorry.

[racindog]

How do you deal with this? As a learning experience for the human being in the equation. Don't take it personally, and there is absolutely no reason for you to be mad at your dog about this.

 

Your dog did nothing wrong. What he did was instinctual and automatic. Sometimes time and building up of trust will lessen the instinct, but it will always be there. And he doesn't even remember that it happened at this point anyway.

 

Remember to use a muzzle in the future and move on.

This. Also you should always SET YOUR DOG UP for SUCCESS. That means don't risk letting him do something you don't want. Put the muzzle on! There doesn't have to be an imminent threat to use it. Your dog is faultless in this. The fault for the bite is squarely and 100% on YOUR shoulders. He doesn't need any "training." You can't train him out of being a dog. Move on and in the future set your dog up for success rather than allowing him to fail.

[NeylasMom]

For goodness sake, a bite of that degree over having paws handled isn't "being a dog". Yes, dogs communicate through barking, growling, snapping and biting. And yes, if you are aware of triggers that might lead to aggression with your dog you should take precautions to prevent those triggers from happening (not by slapping a muzzle on, which does not address the underlying problem). The muzzle should be a last resort if and only if you NEED to do something for the safety of the dog and there's no way to do it without potentially eliciting aggression.

 

Having said that, dogs have choices. They can choose to move away, or to warn rather than bite. A bite of that severity over having a paw handled is not a "usual" degree of response, so while I think it's great that you take some ownership of the incident because you were aware that it was a possibility, we don't have to play this blame game where the OP was a crappy owner for setting the dog up for failure.

And YES, YOU CAN CHANGE THIS BEHAVIOR. A behavior modification training plan using counter-conditioning & desensitization (CC&D) can change the way the dog feels about having his paws handled. It may not necessarily change the severity of the dog's bite if he is provoked to aggress in another situation, but it can drastically reduce the likelihood that he will feel the need to aggress when having his paws handled. The ability to modify the dog's behavior will of course depend on the individual dog, the severity of the issue, and the proficiency of the owner when implementing the training plan.

 

To the OP, CC&D is a process by which we pair paw touching at a level the dog IS comfortable with with something of high value (typically very yummy food that the dog doesn't get at other times like cooked chicken or meatballs). Over time, the dog learns that the paw touching predicts good things happening, thus changing the dog's underlying feelings. Once they start to get that, we then proceed to touching for longer, or manipulating toes a bit, etc. always at a rate where the dog is comfortable and not provoked to protect himself until we can safely do what we need to do and the only result is the dog getting the "Where's my chicken?!" look. But I recommended a trainer rather than outlining this process in detail because I think for a dog with the severity of bite you're describing it's important to do this under the guidance of a professional so you can be sure you move at a pace that the dog is comfortable with. I am always happy to provide a few referrals if you tell me where you live. Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

[Guest CleverJason]

I'm kinda surprised at some of the responses admonishing me for setting Baron up to fail or for somehow being a bad dog owner because I used the word "angry." Maybe I should have said "frustrated." Let me share a few additional points for those who decided to fill in the blanks on their own: I've had Baron for three years. He typically likes getting a paw rub, but he's always been sensitive when they are hurting. I've learned this because he has SLO and has lost nails in the past. I did not know his paw was injured, and he gave me no warning that I was bothering him until he lashed out with his teeth. We were just sitting on the couch, and I was petting him like normal, including a little paw rub, and then suddenly a bite.

 

The most difficult thing for me over the last couple of days is that I'm now feeling cautious and hesitant to pet him. I want to give him the affection he typically enjoys, but getting bit scared me. I may not know that he is hurting somewhere, and he apparently doesn't give any warning before letting his teeth do the talking.

[Roo]

I'm kinda surprised at some of the responses admonishing me for setting Baron up to fail or for somehow being a bad dog owner because I used the word "angry." Maybe I should have said "frustrated." Let me share a few additional points for those who decided to fill in the blanks on their own: I've had Baron for three years. He typically likes getting a paw rub, but he's always been sensitive when they are hurting. I've learned this because he has SLO and has lost nails in the past. I did not know his paw was injured, and he gave me no warning that I was bothering him until he lashed out with his teeth. We were just sitting on the couch, and I was petting him like normal, including a little paw rub, and then suddenly a bite.

 

The most difficult thing for me over the last couple of days is that I'm now feeling cautious and hesitant to pet him. I want to give him the affection he typically enjoys, but getting bit scared me. I may not know that he is hurting somewhere, and he apparently doesn't give any warning before letting his teeth do the talking.

 

I totally understand your hesitation to pet him, and it's totally valid and justified. Even though you know what triggered the bite the first time, you're still going to have that little voice in your head saying "Maybe it'll happen again." Give yourself (and him) time. Be as normal as possible. Pet him, but not in a situation that makes you uncomfortable. Since he bit you while he was laying down, don't pet him while he's laying down for now. Pet him and love on him other times, but in typical dog-petting areas - head and neck scritches, long gentle strokes down his back, etc. You'll find your bond with him again - it may just take some time.

 

The suggestion to work on paw handling by slowly building up tolerance is great and may be a good exercise for you to do to build up your trust with him again (your trust in him, and his in you that you're not going to hurt him).

 

ETA: You're not at fault for the bite, and neither is he. It's one of those situations where you can point fingers both ways and list reasons why you're right, but the reality is you've had him 3 years and done similar things with his paws (touching, rubbing, manipulating) throughout this time and he's never reacted. It just so happens that this time, for whatever reason, it elicited a bite - maybe he was hurting more than normal, maybe he'd drifted off and it hurt and startled him... You likely won't know.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Roo

[NeylasMom]

I'm kinda surprised at some of the responses admonishing me for setting Baron up to fail or for somehow being a bad dog owner because I used the word "angry." Maybe I should have said "frustrated." Let me share a few additional points for those who decided to fill in the blanks on their own: I've had Baron for three years. He typically likes getting a paw rub, but he's always been sensitive when they are hurting. I've learned this because he has SLO and has lost nails in the past. I did not know his paw was injured, and he gave me no warning that I was bothering him until he lashed out with his teeth. We were just sitting on the couch, and I was petting him like normal, including a little paw rub, and then suddenly a bite.

 

The most difficult thing for me over the last couple of days is that I'm now feeling cautious and hesitant to pet him. I want to give him the affection he typically enjoys, but getting bit scared me. I may not know that he is hurting somewhere, and he apparently doesn't give any warning before letting his teeth do the talking.

The extra information is really useful. I really can't recommend you seek out a professional enough. Unfortunately you can't really counter-condition a dog's response to pain. It's reasonable that a dog would react in response to pain. The problem you have is that your dog's bite threshold is very low, so instead of warning with a snap or growl, your dog proceeds straight to bite and unfortunately there's not a lot of evidence that we can modify a dog's bite threshold though we can reduce or eliminate triggers. I do wonder if when you were rubbing his feet he wasn't giving you some more subtle signs of his discomfort. Not something so obvious as a growl, but for instance, his mouth may have gone from open to firmly closed, or he may have turned his head toward your hand. Not to in any way place blame on you, but looking for those subtle signs may help you predict when he's uncomfortable before he bites.

 

I do think in the meantime, you should modify your behavior. I wouldn't pet him when he's lying down or asleep, and I would eliminate the paw rubs. He may not enjoy them as much as you think, but regardless if you can't predict when he is painful and when he is not, you have to just stop them to be safe. I am also more on board with you using the muzzle at times if you want to start to explore a bit what he is and is not comfortable with in an effort to try to identify those subtle signs. So again, not to do things that will prompt a bite, but especially with the help of a professional to learn a bit more about what his triggers are and how to identify discomfort sooner.

 

I hope that helps.

Edited October 19, 2016 by NeylasMom

[KickReturn]

I'll just second NeylasMom, you've got a dog with a low bite inhibition. Precautions will have to be taken - mainly, don't ever touch his feet. Hopefully it is a one off event but wow - no pulling the foot away, no growl, no attempt to get up and walk away - that's what is scary. I am so sorry you have had this happen, but please don't let this get you down. It sounds like this is very manageable.

 

My Archer would bite the arm that was holding the leash when he saw deer as part of his attempt to get free (clever, clever dog), but even out of his mind in hunting mode, he was still inhibited enough so as not to do damage.To get a hard bite in the situation you describe is scary.