Incurin Issues

[Guest BrauneAugen]

Hello! I hope this is not a repeat topic, but I had searched around the forums and I didn't find any discussions about Incurin's side effects (only Proin and I will never use it!). Are greyhounds more sensitive to Incurin and will the side effects mellow with time? Is there anything else it could be and and which tests should we ask for? It seemed to stop the leaking for a few weeks, so I guess it is a hormonal problem, but I'm wondering if it is triggering another health problem.

She has been on it for almost 7 weeks with gradually smaller doses. She is 2 and a half years old, medium size, and she was spayed in November. She was leaking in her sleep (during the night and during daytime naps) when we adopted her. Her blood work was normal before taking. She has had two negative urine tests, so no UTI.

She was not doing well on the higher doses. She is now leaking on the lowest one and still has some side effects. Her previously low prey drive was suddenly out of control 2 days after starting it. She was staking/whining to get at small children in the playground across the street, larger dogs, and obsessively "hunting" on walks. Other problems include drinking so much water that we had to take her out every 1-2 hours and she still sometimes peed by the door, gastrointestinal issues and weight loss (but still eating), and lots of discharge, but an infection was ruled out.

For two weeks she has been taking 1/2 a pill ever other day and she started leaking 2 days ago. Her side effects are more manageable on this dose, but not gone. Her prey drive has chilled out and she ignores everything that is not a cat, we got her back up to a few lbs above her racing weight, and she is drinking less water, but still way more then before the medication.

 

I'm nervous about increasing her dose again and the urine burns her skin. Poor girl! Incurin worked well for other dogs in my family, but maybe it is not for her?

Edited February 24, 2016 by BrauneAugen

[RaineysMom]

can you try DES? our Rainey was on it for years with no side effects and never leaked. We were able to eventually get her on just 1 pill once a week and she never leaked again.

[Guest BrauneAugen]

Hi RaineysMom! Thank you for your response. I will see if we can get DES here. I wasn't sure if I should try her on it because it has the same side effects as Incurin on its website, but maybe she'll react differently to a different form of estrogen. May I asked how you dosed Rainy? Our vet told us an...odd way to dose the Incurin and I see that DES in both liquid and capsules. Which did you prefer and which dose did you start with?

[Roo]

Wow, I had no idea there were such bad side effects to Incurin! My 12 year old terrier is on it and has had no issues at all. I suppose we got lucky... I hope you can find something else that'll work for your girl!

[tbhounds]

I'm not sure you shouldn't see an internal medicine Dr before pursuing adding or changing meds. Something isn't adding up--she's awful young to have spay incontintence -not that it isn't possible but, I would want to rule out other possible causes for the leaking.

[Fiona3]

This may be a long shot but this was our experience.

 

Fiona started with incontinence in 2013. (We had a male greyhound who had suffered a mild stroke after starting on Proin.) I insisted that Fiona have her blood pressure tested and it was quite high. She was referred to a specialist and placed on Benazepril for the blood pressure. Amazingly, the incontinence stopped as it was related to the blood pressure. Fiona developed other health issues that were unrelated but we were able to avoid placing her on hormone therapy for leaking.

 

Good luck with your girl in finding the solution.

[Guest BrauneAugen]

Thank you so much for the responses!

Fiona3, I'm so sorry to hear that your pup had a stroke! Thank you for the suggestion. We asked the vet about her blood pressure and he said that when he examined her in January that her blood pressure was on the low side. Her low blood pressure and the fact that she has remarkably low energy for a young dog did prompt him to check her thyroid, but thankfully that came back normal.

 

tbhounds, I feel a bit vindicated that you also think something is off. He suggested non-hormonal medication, caniphedrin, but I think I want to make sure she is okay before we play with meds. The vet is the greyhound expert in the area, but he has been very dismissive… He will begrudgingly run a test if I say "Please, I will sleep better at night if you check." For example, we found worms in her poo when we first adopted her and I wanted him to test the sample for other parasites. It has been frustrating. I have taken care of sick dogs (diabetic, Addison's, and partial seizures) as a pet sitter and at a shelter. I know am not veterinarian, but I am not clueless.

I have been thinking about some of her other weird symptoms. She is loosing fur, she has bad dandruff, her back legs can be shaky at times, and she has had a few collapsing episodes where she was unresponsive for a few minutes and then she seemed fine (just a little subdued). The vet did say she needs some sort of hip adjustment and she will see someone for that this week. When we took her in to the after hours clinic for the collapsing spell they said she seemed okay and that she was not diabetic. They blamed it on the stress of a bath or a bad reaction to new type of treat.

I'm beginning to suspect if all of her problems point to something internal. I'm wondering about Addison's? It can cause leaking. Actually, a bunch of diseases seem to cause leaking. How are they not checking her? The test seems fairly simple. Hopefully I can get the vet to run it or find another one that will. She has made it clear that I am her person since day one. I feel horrible that I have been ignoring my instincts and going along with the vet's assumption that it is "new dog stress" when she actually might not be well! She is very calm, affectionate, easy to train, and has the nerves of steel (fireworks do not bother her!). She actually seems to be adapting very well. These problems don't sound normal for a young grey, right?

Edited February 27, 2016 by BrauneAugen

[tbhounds]

Run don't walk to another vet.

[Guest BrauneAugen]

I wish we could! I really do! Sorry, I simplified things for the post. I tend to stalk forums, and not post in them. I do feel a little awkward asking "is this normal? What should we look into?" on an internet forum, but I figured that many members here have cared for greys for decades and may have seen something like this before. I really appreciate everyone who is taking the time to respond.

We see two vets and I'm not a fan of either. We live out in the sticks and we have limited options. One vet is in the next town. They admitted that greyhounds are not their specialty. We were told by her rescue organization that we can rely on them for emergency patch and fix work as they can call the greyhound vet if she needs anesthesia or something. They gave us the Incurin and didn't tell us how to dose it correctly...so I'm a bit suspicious of them. The other one is the sight hound expert in this region, but he is an hour away. He...well lets just say I am too young, female, and "not German" for him to take me seriously, although I did get a head turn when I knew which thyroid panel to run on a grey. We can't get an appointment for either place for a week, so I guess I will keep an eye on her and look into what it could be. I was thinking that the orthopedic practitioner would probably be able to tell us if Kira is having muscle weakness or something. It seems to be a hallmark for a bunch of underlying issues and I don't know how to evaluate her for something like that. Hopefully we will know more after that appointment. ::fingerscrossed::

[3greytjoys]

These problems don't sound normal for a young grey, right?

 

I'm not in the veterinary medicine field, nor do I have any experience with Incurin, but could you please elaborate a little more on the situation re: collapsing with unresponsiveness? That is not normal behavior.

 

I will mention that Greyhounds are temperature sensitive. Many Greyhounds' bodies will semi-collapse down during a bath if the bath water is too warm for them; however, their muscle control bounces back immediately when water temperature is corrected, and they are completely fine after their bath.

[Guest BrauneAugen]

"their muscle control bounces back immediately when water temperature is corrected, and they are completely fine after their bath."

 

This is making me feel so relieved that I probably didn't cause it. I showered her and she never stood in the water. it wasn't too warm and she seemed to really enjoy it. She has a thick lined winter coat and a snood when we take her outside and if it is 35 of bellow I don't have her out for more than 20min. I know they are sensitive to heat, but could cold trigger this? It wasn't that cold on any of the days it happened, but I do live in a cold region and maybe she was chilly after the bath?

 

The collapsing thing happen has happened 3 times, once before the Incurin. She has had a few "I want to sleep now" moments, but she gets to her bed or a rug and she doesn't collapse or sleep in that position. It happened 5 hours after the bath when we were all relaxing on the couch last week. She was already laying down on her side with her head up for pets and then she suddenly went limp but curled up a little. Her eyes were weird and rolled back, but not the normal sleeping demon eyes. She was not quite shaking, more like trembling a little bit. She cut her mouth on a rose bush outside a few days before and I thought maybe she had an infection. She was completely unresponsive when I opened her mouth to check her out and seem unresponsive to everything else. It was a scary 3 minutes. Then she perked up...and then she slipped back under for another unresponsive episode and we rushed her to the vet. She seemed a bit groggy in between them. We were afraid that the dried chicken treat I gave her that morning got stuck in her intestine or something. The vet said that she did seem to be in a little pain but her stomach was fine. She gave her a shot of pain meds.

 

The other 2 times were after a walk when we went by a field or big yard and she was very excited to try to chase a rabbit frolicking there (we have since changed the route). It took me a while to get her back to the house and she sort of slowly collapsed in the middle of the stairs and I had to hold her, trying to wake her up so she wouldn't roll down for about 5 minutes. She trembled a bit, too. I called the vet the first time and he just thought it was stress since it was during her first week with us. She has had other times of "Mommy, I want to chase it!" and she has been totally fine. A few times after a walk she'll sit...but it is more like she just can't stand. Treats will not get her to stand up and I just have to wait it out. Some days, she will have trouble with the stairs.

 

Has anyone seen something like this?

Thank you so much for support and kind words. She is such a sweet and empathetic little girl and I'm trying not to be worried in front of her.

Edited February 28, 2016 by BrauneAugen

[3greytjoys]

I'm glad you posted. Your sweet girl's behavior is not normal. Please don't blame yourself. I'm hoping others with more veterinary experience will respond; meanwhile, I'll share a few thoughts:

 

Generally, Greyhounds can be more sensitive to medications (and hot or cold ambient temperatures). Some vet medications are given at reduced doses (vs. full doses for other dog breeds of same size).

 

Seems many of your girl's side effects could be caused by sensitivity to Incurin:

http://www.merck-animal-health-usa.com/binaries/Incurin_PI_tcm96-86674.pdf

She may be having seizures when she's collapsing with her eyes rolling back (possibly worsened by Incurin?). Since she had one before Incurin was started, other toxins could be considered also, anything from wild mushrooms in gardens to fertilizers/pesticides used on neighboring grasses, vermin bait, human foods (grapes/raisins/chocolate/onions/xylitol, etc.).

A Greyhound's semi-collapse during a bath or shower is different from what you're seeing. They don't lose consciousness from being showered or bathing in water that is slightly too warm for them. As mentioned, once water temperature is corrected, they regain muscle control and stand normally. Once they are out of the water and towel dried, they're completely fine. If still damp, a light blanket could be placed loosely over hound while resting.

If a hound were much, much too cold while walking outside you may see symptoms of hypothermia: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1677&aid=301

 

Rhabdomyolysis is seen in some pet Greyhounds, but usually happens if a hound gets loose, especially during hot summer weather: https://www.vetstream.com/canis/Content/Disease/dis60304

 

Again, most of your girl's symptoms appear to be sensitivity to Incurin. If you and a vet eliminate Incurin to get her general health on track, absorbent puppy pads, hospital bed pads or doggie diapers could help keep her bed and skin dry. Please let us know how it goes.

 

[tbhounds]

Sounds like syncope

[3greytjoys]

Regarding tbhounds excellent input:

Here's a link about syncope: http://www.petplace.com/article/dogs/diseases-conditions-of-dogs/symptoms/syncope-fainting-in-dogs

(There are questions to provide helpful answers for your vet visit at end of linked page.)

[SanTanSnuggles]

I would take the greyhound directly to a neurologist, forget all the preliminary stuff. I have two different greyhounds who had movement issues. HeartSweet started having seizures and the doctor treated her for that without an xray or such. In four months, she began to limp and favor her right hind leg, so the vets partner took an xray. My baby girl had advanced bone cancer by that time, so we had to lay her to rest. My second girl, had lost her ability to walk within hours and we took her to our new vet and she was looked at for four days, staying overnight, and than saw a Neurologist at the Hope Center in Rockville, MD. As it turned out, they said that she had GME. She survived for 91 days on medications and treatments and seemed to improve, but the day she came home from her last visit, she seemed to have thrown a blood clot and passed at home very quickly. HeartSweet and Snuggles both were only a little over five years of age when they passed. The sooner the treatment, hopefully the better the outcome. My heart goes out to you and your girl and I will keep you in our prayers. Nothing can ever replace being owned and loved by a grey. My boy who is seven, is recovering from a tumor of a mixed nature removed from his front leg (stage 1) and is doing good. He will be on lifetime medications. All of this happened in 2014 and 2015.He sees an oncologist every three months now to check his blood count. What I learned from the preliminary examination done by Dr. Cuff, the neurologist was priceless. He also recommended my boy see the oncologist, after the regular vet removed the growth. The treatment the oncologist gave to my boy was a better option than what had been explained to me by the regular vet. Snuggles was unable to hold her urine for about 30 days after she got sick. So I kept a shower curtain on the floor, covered with the washable human bed pads (from Amazon) and covered that with the absorbent puppy pads I got at Costco for a good price. She was well trained and even being sick, would use the pads if she could not make it out. Thank you for sharing your experience and I am looking forward to hearing how things are going with your girl.

[Guest BrauneAugen]

Thank you so much for the responses and excellent resources. I think I will have an easier time with the vets if I use more precise medical terms, rather than saying "collapsing thing." I had mentioned to the emergency vet that it seemed like she had a syncope spell, but I was told those only make a dog unconscious for a minute or two. The information you posted states that the unconscious state can last longer. It seems like it can be caused by a number of horrible things! I'm trying not to get overwhelmed.

 

She is muzzled on walks because the neighborhood cats walk right up to us and demand attention. Our home is dog proofed and I'm careful about where I take her. She is still in the suspiciously well behaved stage...although I will not be surprised if she gets sneakier as she feels more comfortable with us. I don't think it is anything she is eating or getting into. She has been off the Incurin for a week. On the upside, she is drinking less water and she no longer stalks things or whines to get at other creatures. I grew up with a border collie with two bladders, so managing the leaking isn't too bad. I also use the shower curtain trick and she knows where her spots are. However, she has less energy and had another episode yesterday. Her lower back/hind leg problem is getting worse. Her back legs shake, collapse on the stairs, and she has fallen when going to the bathroom. I let the orthopedic practitioner know that she sometimes leaks and passes out. She agreed that it doesn't sound normal. She will do a thorough evaluation when we see her tomorrow and that she will write up a report we can show to the vet if she notices anything amiss. She said there is a chance a spinal problem could be causing some of the problems.

 

I let you know what we hear. Hopefully it is something that can be resolved quickly so my little girl can feel well again.

[Guest BrauneAugen]

Thank you so much for your help and support. 3greytjoys, the links you posted helped me learn what to look for and I sincerely thank you for comforting me when I was worried I doing something to cause it.

 

An update on Kira. The orthopedic practitioner thought something was not normal and called the greyhound vet! We now have his full attention. They have some suspicions, but they want to wait to test her in a few weeks when the Incurin is out of her system. They suspect something auto-immune or, possibly, a thyroid problem. Her blood tests from a over month ago were a little off, but nothing that raised red flags. She said it sounded like what happened to Kira is what happens to a dog who has an underlying condition and shouldn't be on hormones. We just need to keep her calm, limit her stress and exercise sessions, until they can run the tests. The vet sent us home with information to give the local vet in case of emergency and an abortive treatment for seizures just in case she has an episode that lasts too long.

There is a chance she is having some sort of partial seizure, but they advised waiting and tracking them to see if I can limit triggers (and Identify what is causing her other symptoms) before trying any medication. It looks like many puppy parents have shared their experiences with seizures here. This is the first forum I have joined and I'm really glad I did.

[tbhounds]

Well-I'm glad you sought out another opinion. Seemed to me your first vet was just putting a bandaid on the problem and not diagnosing the problem of origin.

Please keep is posted.

[Guest BrauneAugen]

An update, just in case anyone else is noticing similar symptoms. It turns out that she has a corn sensitivity or allergy. A neuro here suggested an elimination diet for various grains and potato. No more seizures! I don't understand it, but he said he had see a few other dogs with that reaction. I have also not found evidence of an incontinence leak during the last few months. She is thrilled to be getting more couch cuddles. Her skin is looking so much better and her fur is growing back. My little girl is doing so much better.

I hope everyone and their Greyts are doing well!

[tbhounds]

Wonderful to hear!!!