To Crate Or Not To Crate - A Separation Anxiety Problem

[Guest SoleSky]

I adopted Suki a little over a month ago, and things have been great so far! She is well adjusted to home life, loves sleeping and lazing around, enjoys her food, squeakers, doing zoomies at the park with friends. All around she is an excellent dog. We just have one problem... Separation Anxiety.

I am a veterinary student and my schedule is like a normal work day. Usually I leave around 7:30am and come home around 12:00pm to let her out and go back to class around 1:00pm and get home around 4:00 pm. I have been kenneling her during that time and she gets a lot of goodies: Frozen kong with PB + treats, nylabones, safe toys, etc. She has a bed and a blanket in there as well. I have been giving every meal inside of the crate. Most treats have been in the crate. Raw turkey necks - in the crate, etc.

I'm trying really hard to positively associate the crate. When I come home, she is not allowed out until she is calm, which she has learned very quickly. I set up a camera while I'm at school so I can watch her and I noticed that she whines and pants a lot. Has trouble settling down. Unfortunately, this week she chewed up her crate tray which was extremely worrisome as there may have been sharp pieces - however she passed a few and has been acting fine. I switched it to a horse stall mat, which is very thick and basically impenetrable. Then I noticed that she may have bent one of the crate bars slightly and I'm worried about her fracturing teeth.

I started supplementing her with melatonin (3mg) in the morning before class. I also bought a calming spray that I apply to her paws and back fur - this just got here today. I have a radio that plays while she is gone as well. It seemed like the melatonin was working - until the most recent incidents.

I tried leaving her out of her crate, to see if she was worried about being confined, but that seemed even worse! Pacing, howling, drooling, and a urination accident. She wouldn't even calm down to sleep once. I tried leaving her with another dog (her friend who she knows) and that didn't help either. Honestly, she is just distraught when I am not with her. I am considering Prozac, but will give her a bit more time to calm down. I know Prozac has a 6 week period before it can be effective so I would like to relieve her suffering sooner rather than later.

I just want her to be happy. Some days it seems like we're making progress, and others it seems like we've jumped two steps back. I would love to hear your advice, or encouragement - or even just tell me it will get better eventually. For her sake, I want her to be happy. So sorry for this incredibly long post, I just wanted to provide the whole story.

 

I've read about alone training but typically don't have time until the weekends. Plus I have a roommate and I feel really bad when I leave because she will whine and I know that can get annoying. As I am sitting here, I have her in her crate and she is completely calm, sleeping even. However, as soon as I leave she worries if I'll ever come back. I am going to get working on alone training ASAP! I am sorry there are so many posts about separation anxiety already, I just feel like every situation is different but am willing to put in whatever effort it takes for her to get over this. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

[greysmom]

Here's some reading to get you started

Patricia McConnell's "I'll Be Home Soon"

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/1891767054?keywords=patricia%20mcconnell&qid=1455069389&ref_=sr_1_6&sr=8-6

 

The other thing to remember is there are two types of separation anxiety. One type - she's anxious about being alone. The other type - she's anxious being away from YOU. Since she still exhibits SA symptoms when she has a companion, I would say that it's you she's missing. The technique will be the same, I imagine, just change the emphasis to training her to be OK with you gone.

[locket]

Here is my experience, hopefully you get something out of this

 

1. It took 2+ months for Jack to stop barking all day. Give it time.

 

2. Routine routine routine. Every day in the same order, do the same thing. Even on the week-ends, go for a coffee, shopping, anything. You might want to start with just exiting the door and coming back in 1 second, but do your I am leaving routine!

 

3. DAP diffuser. Can't say enough good things about it

 

4. If she is bending her cage, it might be dangerous for her...Jack got out of his cage once and that was the sign he didn't needed it anymore. The first day out he paced paced paced. He didn't know what to do of all this space! So the next day he had only part of the living room and his crate. Then the next week only the living and kitchen. You get the idea Now he gets the full run of the house . It took about a week for him to be confortable with his freedom.

 

You can do it! It gets better

[Guest SoleSky]

Thank you so much for the reassurance!

 

I tried leaving her out for about a week at a time but she did seem very frantic. I can try leaving the muzzle on her while I'm gone and leave her out. She tries to jump up on the gate though and the tables. Not that it's a huge deal, I just don't want her to get over the gate and go into my roommates room and destroy stuff/ get into stuff.

 

I bought the book, and will be reading it tonight! Thank you for the suggestions

Edited February 10, 2016 by SoleSky

[greysmom]

Dog proof a smaller room that's easily cleanable. Put a nice comfy bed in there, let her get used to being there and hanging out. Gate her in there with a Kong while you are home. The goal is to get her comfortable with the space and with you being gone in *extremely* small increments - like seconds or minutes to start. Remember, she's only been in your house for a few weeks. It can take several months for a dog to become settled into a new home, routine, schedule. Everything is completely new to her, and probably quite scary. You're her rock in all the chaos and when you leave she doesn't know how to cope.

[Guest SoleSky]

There is a hallway in my house (between my bedroom and bathroom) that is decent is size (7x3) that I feel would be a good area for her. Floors are wooden so I can clean it up pretty easily. I just bought her a slumber ball so I can leave it in there with her along with some goodies. While I'm in class I decided to crate her today though because I thought four hours in a new place would freak her out even more. I gave her a benadryl this morning to hopefully take the edge off a wee bit. I'll work on the new area and see how she does.

[krissy]

With foster dogs I have always found it helpful to crate them while I am home and out of sight. Kind of like "just because I'm home, doesn't necessarily mean you get to be with me". I would crate and go do some sort of quite activity in another room for a short time (about an hour typically). Back when I was in vet school I'd go study. Now I'll go read, work on the computer, or pull out some arts and crafts. The dog would get used to settling in their crate while I was out of sight. It was kind of like a baby step to separation.

[Guest SoleSky]

That's a really good idea. I did that last night while I ate dinner. She ate her dinner and I ate mine and then I left her in the crate afterwards. This morning I did the same while I wandered around and got ready for the day

[Guest newyorkgrey]

One of my dogs gets very anxious anywhere near a crate. My fault for poor training as a new dog owner when I first got her four years ago I think. My second dog had no problem with the crate I bought her, and I put it away after maybe six months of house training. Now she is recovering from an injury, and I think I will be crating her while I am away for good. Kong and peanut butter. That's it. I put my shoes on, and she knows I'm leaving and runs straight into the crate for her peanut butter. If I say, "Go to the crate," she runs right in. Of course I say it like going there is the greatest thing in the world.

 

I think my first dog was so stressed that I associated crates with stress, and she picked up on that. With my second dog, I treat it as the place to be, her den, her hangout, and she loves it. I leave my doggie cam on all day when I'm out too. She just sleeps most of the time. Knowing how sensitive these dogs are to what we are feeling, consider whether you feel stressed about the crate. If your stress level drops, hers might too. By the way I've also used clicker training with both dogs, and it worked wonders. My older dog jumps through hoops, literally.

[Guest SoleSky]

Thats great! Thank you. I'm going to keep reinforcing the crate with positivity and delicious goodies. She knows she gets her breakfast and dinner in there and runs right in. But it's those times when I'm leaving in the morning (the second go around after she gets let out) that she hesitates. I give her the Kong before I leave, she circles around and hesitates before going in. Finally she will go in reluctantly. We've been working on "kennel" cue and crate games which have been pretty helpful. My SO just bought her a nanny cam for Valentine's day, so we will be able to check in on her often.

 

I'm visiting with my veterinarian soon and will be seeing what options we can take.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Here's a clip of the possible side effects of melatonin in humans:

Melatonin is POSSIBLY SAFE when used by mouth appropriately, long-term. Melatonin has been used safely for up to 2 years in some people. However, it can cause some side effects including headache, short-term feelings of depression, daytime sleepiness, dizziness, stomach cramps, and irritability. Do not drive or use machinery for four to five hours after taking melatonin.

Special Precautions & Warnings:

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Melatonin is POSSIBLY UNSAFE to use during pregnancy. Do not use it. Melatonin might also interfere with ovulation, making it more difficult to become pregnant.

Not enough is known about the safety of using melatonin when breast-feeding. It is best not to use it.

Infants and children: Melatonin should not be used in most children. It isPOSSIBLY UNSAFE. Because of its effects on other hormones, melatonin might interfere with development during adolescence.

Bleeding disorders: Melatonin might make bleeding worse in people with bleeding disorders.

High blood pressure: Melatonin can raise blood pressure in people who are taking certain medications to control blood pressure. Avoid using it.

Diabetes: Melatonin might increase blood sugar in people with diabetes. Monitor your blood sugar carefully, if you have diabetes and take melatonin.

Depression: Melatonin can make symptoms of depression worse.

Seizure disorders: Using melatonin might increase the risk of having a seizure.

Transplant recipients: Melatonin can increase immune function and might interfere with immunosuppressive therapy used by people receiving transplants

 

Note it can cause short-term feelings of depression , as well as make it worse. So if you are trying to treat someone with anxiety a drug that can cause further issues, doesn't make sense.

 

I am not a proponent of drugs unless all other options are exhausted. You definitely need to do alone training. Search on this site, you will find a lot of help with alone training. From what you are describing, her anxiety really isn't horrible right now but could get out of hand without help. I personally would opt for alone training with the other things you have already done (feeding in crate, toys, etc.) before i went to medication.

[Guest SoleSky]

Thank you for all of your help. I took Suki to the vet today and she got a Prozac/Xanax prescription. We will be trying this to see how it affects her. The vet also checked her thyroid and she was at a .6 which I know greyhounds have a lower thyroid level but I'm hesitant to give her the Thyroxine the vet prescribed without a full panel.

[Guest k9soul]

Thank you for all of your help. I took Suki to the vet today and she got a Prozac/Xanax prescription. We will be trying this to see how it affects her. The vet also checked her thyroid and she was at a .6 which I know greyhounds have a lower thyroid level but I'm hesitant to give her the Thyroxine the vet prescribed without a full panel.

 

I would be hesitant on the thyroxine as well. This site might be worth sharing with your vet: http://www.recycledracers.org/FAQ/greyhound-blood-values.html

 

It does say normal T4 for greyhounds is 0.5 - 3.6. I think a complete panel would be the safest bet.

[Guest SoleSky]

Okay, thank you for your response. I will wait on that, plus I heard giving them thyroid medication can be behaviorally altering too and if we're giving prozac and xanax I don't want to add in another factor to that. It might just be too much for the current problem. Regardless, we're starting the prozac Monday (pharmacy had a little mix up), and we will see where that brings us. I feel guilty for drugging her up but at the same time I feel guilty leaving her. I just wish she could be a happy baby without medication, but I know her suffering and stress could be just as damaging. We did the pre-op blood panel today to get baseline for her liver levels and we will go from there. I think I will mention to my vet that I don't want to put her on thyroid medication until I run a complete panel.

 

Thanks for your advice!

[greysmom]

Remember you still need to start/continue your Alone Training while she is on her meds. All they really do is put her brain in a place that it will accept de-sensitization training.

 

I had one boy who's "normal" (for him) thyroid reading was .2. Very low, even for a greyhound. But *any* supplementation made him a nutjob crazy dog, and he was so much better without it. Levels can also vary widely depending on the time of day, the hormonal cycle, when they've been fed, how old they are, so it's important to keep track of her levels over time.

[Guest SoleSky]

We worked on alone training today and I'm not sure how helpful it was. I'm a bit confused. Do I keep leaving and coming back and increasing intervals? 15 sec, 30 sec, a min etc. Do I take her out of her crate each time or do I leave her in? I want to be sure I'm getting the cycle right and not stress her out more. Thanks.

[greysmom]

Do the whole cycle - get her ready, put her in, leave, come back let her out. Then let her rest for a time. Repeat. If she's already stressed before that, then you need to go back further in the process. Try and pick up what is *initially* setting her off in the leaving cycle. Say, that's you picking up your keys. If that's the first thing that makes her anxious, then start carrying them around with you all the time, picking them up and setting them down, over and over (and over and over), until she doesn't react in any way. Then add the next thing in the sequence - pick up your keys, and put on your coat (or whatever it is). Repeat until there's no reaction. Add another in the sequence, and another, until you can actually leave the house. Then, just leave for a few seconds and come back in - you want to return *before* she gets anxious - repeat, repeat. Add more time as she can tolerate it. If she begins becoming anxious, go back and step and repeat the previous step.

 

You can see how this is highly time intensive, but it will really be worth it.

[Guest SoleSky]

Oh okay great thank you. Unfortunately I can only accomplish this on weekends because of school - hopefully that is enough? I started her on Prozac today. Vet prescribed 30 mg to start. She will also be getting a 0.5 mg xanax in the morning before I leave. I feel kind of guilty about drugging her up but then I watch her on camera when I leave and I feel like she suffers so much when I'm gone. I've spent a ton of money and time trying to remedy this problem and it seems like the next best thing for her. She is a perfect angel when I'm around and people just don't believe it when I tell them. I also got her a pheromone collar today in addition.

 

I just want her to be happy when I'm gone so I can leave her out and she can chill.

 

 

Just want to add - I don't really care about money that much but I'm a poor student so if I can get this solved I would prefer that haha

Edited February 15, 2016 by SoleSky

[greysmom]

It's going to take a while for the drugs to kick in, so you won't see instant results. The xanax might make her more relaxed/sleepy, or not. Every dog responds differently to anti anxiety drugs. You may need to adjust the dose or even try a different one before you can get a handle on this issue.

 

Many people have had good success with Trazadone lately. If you're still having trouble in 3-4 weeks, I would give that a try.

[Guest SoleSky]

Thank you for your response! We are trying the xanax for the first time tomorrow morning and I will monitor her secretly (from school haha). We haven't been able to get in our daily exercise due to snow and freezing rain so I'm sure thatll be a factor too.

[3greytjoys]

How much does Suki weigh? I hope your vet is Greyhound savvy. Greyhounds can be more sensitive to drugs than other breeds. IMO, starting a female Greyhound on 30 mg. Prozac could be too high a dosage before her system even begins to adjust to that medication.

 

Ideally, these medications are best started while you are home to evaluate the hound's reactions. Besides Xanax and Prozac, please don't combine any other medications without your vet's prior approval. Prozac is strong, and combining certain drugs can be unsafe for the hound.

 

There is a hallway in my house (between my bedroom and bathroom) that is decent is size (7x3) that I feel would be a good area for her. Floors are wooden so I can clean it up pretty easily. I just bought her a slumber ball so I can leave it in there with her along with some goodies. While I'm in class I decided to crate her today though because I thought four hours in a new place would freak her out even more. I gave her a benadryl this morning to hopefully take the edge off a wee bit. I'll work on the new area and see how she does.

 

If you leave her in the hallway, be aware that many newly retired Greyhounds are fearful of hard floors (and can easily lose their footing causing a potentially serious fall). She may need to walk on rubber-backed bathroom rugs, or a cheap runner rug with a rug gripper mat underneath. Assuming you received her "Greyhound turn-out muzzle" upon adoption, you may need to use it if she's likely to chew the rugs. Of course, she should not be allowed unsupervised in any area with a cat.

 

I'm guessing this is not the mature 7 year old hound you were originally considering.

 

Please contact your adoption group to let them know about Suki's separation anxiety, and let them know your plan. Ideally, while alone training, the dog should not go above her relaxed comfort threshold (i.e. she needs to stay under her first sign of anxiety).

 

[Guest SoleSky]

She is a 63 lb grey. My vet said she worked with greys before. Suki is not on any other medications at the time besides these two. All of the areas in my house are hardwood floors and she is okay will all of the floors in the house. It's not the floors that are a concern to her, it's me leaving. So far, the crate is the best place for her. It seems she feels much more comfortable in there. I would leave her out in the dining room area but I've seen her try to scratch the wood floors and my landlord would have her out of here so fast. This is the best option for her at the time.

 

I did not go with the 7 year old hound - but she ended up needing to be returned anyway for not being able to be an only dog, so it doesn't seem like the situation would have been much different.

 

I've talked with my adoption group and I've gotten a lot of good advice from them. If the dose seems to high for her then I will adjust it accordingly with my vets suggestion. Unfortunately there are no other vets in the area that are greyhound savvy.

[3greytjoys]

She is a 63 lb grey.

All of the areas in my house are hardwood floors and she is okay will all of the floors in the house. It's not the floors that are a concern to her, it's me leaving. I would leave her out in the dining room area but I've seen her try to scratch the wood floors and my landlord would have her out of here so fast. This is the best option for her at the time.

 

If the dose seems to high for her then I will adjust it accordingly with my vets suggestion.

 

Understandable re: her crate (as long as she doesn't harm herself trying to get out). Please remember to remove her collar whenever she is locked inside her crate (to prevent strangulation from her collar and/or tags from catching on crate).

 

Our most severe SA hound is similar weight. When she was on Fluoxetine (aka: Prozac) her Greyhound savvy vet started her treatment at 10 mg. for several weeks for her body to adjust to the drug. Thereafter, she was increased to 20 mg. total for several more weeks of evaluation. The 20 mg. dose worked most effectively for her longer term treatment. Eventually, she was tapered back down very slowly to end her drug treatment. (That drug should not be stopped suddenly.)

 

(Alternatively, after slowly adjusting to Fluoxetine on lower doses for multiple weeks, hounds who eventually reach up to a total of 30 mg. to 40 mg. usually consider it the final maximum high-end dose for Greyhounds of that weight; however, many hound owners report extreme lethargy and loss of appetite at the higher doses, so hounds need to be tapered back slowly to a more manageable dose.)

 

Just to touch on your mention of her trying to scratch wood floors, not sure if you meant she was playfully scratching (which is common), or if she needed to go potty, but every Greyhound we've ever had, including all our fosters have done indoor zoomies (racing around a room or through the house). Our house happens to be fully carpeted except the kitchen and family room. For the Greyhounds' safety, we have a large area rug in the family room, plus runner rugs (with gripper mats underneath) in the kitchen. I understand you are a student, but a cheap rug or two in your most used rooms (during day) could help save your landlord's wood floors from having to be refinished, and your hound from expensive vet bills.

 

To answer your previous question, ideally, alone training should be practiced daily; however, you can only do the best you can considering your class schedule. The more alone training that you can do (within her comfort level) the faster she could potentially progress.

Generally, the most important thing for humans to remember is positive, loving patience. Also, to never reprimand a dog for doing something undesirable that is rooted from their fear. Separation anxiety is fear-based. Greyhounds are an extremely sensitive breed. If they even emotionally feel a human's intense displeasure, their reaction can result in their fear-driven behavior becoming intensified and prolonged.

 

Time and alone training are your friends. Good luck with Suki.

 

 

 

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Your vet has not worked with greyhounds before if he/she is recommending thyroid drugs because of a NORMAL level in a greyhound. Doesnt know greyhounds. Personally I would talk to the group you adopted through and ask for a referral. I would also search online: http://www.greyhoundadoptionofoh.org/Greyhound_Health_Packet_08.pdf; http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/idiosyncrasies-greyhounds-can-affect-their-medical-care ; https://www.ngap.org/greyhound-health-what-vet-should-know-y434.html

and bring that into your existing vet to educate him/her on proper greyhound blood results.

[Guest Marsroving]

...have you ever tried just leaving the dog out of the crate??????????

 

Mars could not tolerate the crate once he got a taste of freedom. Does she chew? Is she destructive? Just leave her out of the crate for one day and see what happens.